satan ferret...

[taratee]

so crane has gotten progressively worse in behavior, in the cage he uses the litter box 100 percent when hes out he waits until i look at him then goes and craps on the carpet. he waits until im looking to do bad stuff and i know hes just being a brat he wont yawn when i scruff him so i know he thinks hes the alpha ferret time outs do nothing to deter him and when ever i do the holding down thing he doesnt submits just scratches me until i almost bleed. i really need some advice because im quickly losing my temper with him.

[Heather]

Ahhh, you have a stubborn fuzz. Not really . You need to realize that he's just like a child a 2 or 3 yr old child. So far, he's winning and you think you're loosing....He's getting your attention, that's all he wants. He doesn't care that it's when you yell at him, when you scruff him. He's not trying to be alpha, he's just trying to be a ferret and he want's you to notice him. Ferret's poop, he's pooping in inapropriate places because then you will pay attention to him. You want him to poop in his litter box, put him in there, he hops out...put him back...again. If you win give him something he likes...tone, oil...a gibby whatever. A snuggle. If he poops outside the box, you do nothing. You clean it up and walk away. You don't look at him, you don't hug him, you don't scream at him. He's invisible. If it makes you feel better tell him he's a bad boy, but this is for your benefit not his. This won't work the first time, the second time....it may not even work this week but it will work.
Never, hold an animal down. It's wrong. Animals don't hold each other down only humans use an alpha hold. You and I are not equiped to read their surrender signals. These can be a whole out relaxation, to nothing more than not making eye contact for a fraction of a second. What do you think you would do if someone held you down and pinned you until you screamed uncle You wouldn't appreciate it. Ferrets don't like it either. The alpha roll, that's what we used to call it in dogs. It is also known as a submission roll. With a dog, you can loose your face. With a ferret you usually only loose the skin on your hands and wrist....worse you get bitten.
Time outs don't work for pooping outside the litter box. It's pooping, it's not wrong to a ferret. It's a bodily function. Discipline is for biting, for beating up your cagemate...not for pooping. Getting a ferret to use a litter box is a training situation...not a punishment situation. You will get a lot farther if you turn the litter box into a training exercise.

ciao

[angelfish]

Mine just went through/are going through that phase as far as intentionally missing the litter box outside the cage. Like Heather said, technically they're not doing anything wrong in their minds. Having to go is having to go. WE may think they should go in one spot, but they often have different ideas.

I've found that putting a litter box in the place they've deemed "their potty" is helpful. If they start to potty in the middle of the room and/or not in a litter box, I immediately scoop them up and put them in the closest/designated litter box. Careful not to turn this into a game. My baby LOVES to try to potty in a "non-approved" place, see me coming for her, then run away. Dang little thing will hold it for up to half an hour while we place chase over and over and over...you get the idea. (She'll even hold it if I put her in her cage because she knows I'll just let her out in a few minutes.

I've found it helpful to follow mine closely right after they get up from naptime, and then check in every 30 minutes or so. That's how often mine go so I can be present to redirect to a litter box if need be.

If he's 100% in the cage then she *should* be able to get him to a decent percentage outside. It'll probably never be perfect though.

You could always try restricting him to a smaller area (but not too small) and gradually widen it when he uses the litter box as a reward.

[taratee]

@ heather its not just poop outside the box though though, and everything you say to do with him pooping outside the box i do, in addition ive also treated him for using the litter box and i also play with him for several hours a day, part of those hours are just me and him because i think its important to have that special bond with everyone. yelling at him wouldnt do much good because even if i did hes deaf as a doornail so he wouldnt hear me. i never have gotten angry at his ferret things like digging the carpet or walls or knocking t hings off but when i feel like hes doing it defiantly it does aggravate me. like dragging shoes under the bed and pooping in them, as he did twice today. i dont understand why i shouldnt time out him for doing that? as for holding him down its something i actually read about on the old forum. i have three litter boxes in the area i dont give him time outs for pooping outside the box i give time outs when he attacks me for not looking at him, i can be playing with icha and crane will come out of no where not playful and latch on to toes to arms to shirts to anything. and god forbid i take a toy away to inspect or let another ferret play with it. what i dont understand is how much MORE attention i should be giving him i mean hes got play time out with everyone and play time out with just icha and play time out with just me its all adding up to like 10 hours out of the cage where im playing with him atleast once an hour from 12-30 minutes at a time. and im doing the bob church hold him and rub his face

@angel like i said above there are three litter boxes in the area, i scoop every day and only leave one poop in for reference and these boxes are bigger then normal corner boxes as well theyre a foot and a half by a foot and i always follow them after naps and i always watch closer when they walk funny and circle that area of the room

[Heather]

You've got me wrong I didn't say give him more attention....I said he wanted more attention. I didn't mean that he needed more attention. He's being a spoiled brat. He wants your attention 24/7.... like a 3 yr old child. I didn't mean for you to give in to him. Yes, he deserves a time out for pooping in your shoes, if you catch him doing it (you didn't say that ). Not if you find poop in your shoes later though, if you catch him with his butt in your shoes....yes....time him out (I know who's poop is in there but his but he doesn't remember doing it even 2 min later). Yes, he attacks you time him out. Chances are though, he's probably trying to play especially if he's a deafie. Their play is totally inappropriate. They bite too hard, play too hard....they are extreme and very hard to manage.
As far as the holding down....we agree to disagree I just don't like it. As I told Katt when she was having problems with Koda....if you do something that harms none and it works then do it. I don't have to agree with it .
ciao

[Deleted]

I'm sorry he's being a little brat... There are some ferrets who are a tad more clever and will test you. I told you about the rescued breeder hob, unneutered, pain-in-the-rear that my friend had. Your method of discipline is completely up to you since you are his fur-parent. He's lucky to have someone as patient as you are, I can tell you that much! Hang in there.

[Deleted]

He's being a brat and testing his boundries...ferrets aren't like dogs where if they go in the house you rub thier nose in it and put them outside so they get the picture...why? fuzz don't really give a d@mn from what I've experienced! I would never even dare to scruff, drag, hiss or hold down Sohpie Ann because she would take a chunk out of what ever part of flesh she could get at...even doing a "gator" death roll/exorcist head spin thing (I found this out the hard way!)

[Heather]

You've never been biten by a ferret until you've experienced the bite....gator roll , which is why I never bother with the scruff or the dominance hold down . It just comes from working with rescues all the time I guess, . I suppose if you've got a kit and that's the method you use and it works then use it. I know there are some on board who use it and it's fine, I believe Katt used it with Koda. Deafies are a whole different breed too though. They require different methods of interaction. I'm thinking though if....quote"when ever i do the holding down thing he doesnt submits just scratches me until i almost bleed" that method isn't working. Just my thought on it. I personally would be looking for another method.
Whatever method you use in the end....use it and only it. Don't switch back and forth. There are a lot if different methods to discipline and control. Not all methods work for all ferrets but choosing one and being consistent will go a long way to getting it to work.
ciao

[kainslie1]

I just want to let you know, that he isn't trying to hate you, or get back at you for anything. There is no such thing as dominence in the ferret or canine world, so he isn't trying to dominate you.

Honestly I'm reading this thinking - oh he's being a ferret. I would just ignore him when he's craving attention (and doing it in a 'bad' way), and reward for good behaviour, by kisses and pets.

[taratee]

@ kanislie dragging shoes under the bed and pooping in them is not normal ferret behavior and the normal behavior isnt what i have a problem with, if there were no such thing as dominance in the canine world Caesar millan wouldnt have a job as his method of training would center around calm dominance. and ive been ignoring bad behavior and rewarding good behavior for months


all in all i believe there are some animals who are just defiant, some who tend to be brattier then others and my problem is that i dotn know what is best to do for crane considering he is doing things outside the normal happy ferret, and doing things that most people WOULD NOT consider normal behavior, dragging shoes under the bed and crapping in them is not NORMAL ferret behavior i dont care what anyone says

[kainslie1]

Feb 9, 2011 15:30:31 GMT -5 @taratee said:

if there were no such thing as dominance in the canine world Caesar millan wouldnt have a job as his method of training would center around calm dominance.

Cesar doesn't know anything about dogs. He makes money like anyone else on reality tv. Who wants to watch people get drunk and pick up people at the bar for a one night stand - the 8.9 million people who watch jersey shore. Or who wants to watch teenagers have babies and fight with their spouses? Teen mom veiwers.

Ceaser makes so much money - and has a show because like most people in the world, society is lazy. and we don't want to spend 6 months teaching out dog to not chase the cat, or to bark at teh door. We want the quick fix. Which Ceaser persumably delivers to us.

But what ceaser does is frightens the dog so much by doing :
The alpha roll or making your dog roll on its back for you (which means DEATH in the animal kingdom)
Ear pinching
Neck grabbing to simulate a bite
Direct eye contact and staring
Hanging by leash and collar to make the dog gasp for breath
That animals actually shut down, making it seem like it's fixed when really it's a ticking time bomb.

If you contantly attack your dog for growling - they dog will learn. Don't growl, if I do. I get hit, or smacked or something. next time the dog is in a threatening situation, he will not growl - he will just attack. because growling has gotten him in trouble in the past.

If you read about dominance theories, scientist have debunked it years ago, but why stop something that your making money on?

and also, I think it's sherry that gets protest poops in her bed. When she doesn't give one of her fuzzie the correct amount of attention (please correct me if i'm wrong)

I always have to find my clothes or shoes or slippers, or toy or even remotes under the bed - they stash things that are valuble to them, like mom or dads shoes because it smells like them.

I don't know to me, that is ferret behaviour.

[w1ldc4rd]

Taratee you got it rough woman. I keep my shoes off the floor since they love digging in to them. You could try doing the same for a month or so, then test him by putting the shoes back and see if he repeats the behavior. How long do you generally scruff him for before you give up?

[bluemoose]

My two cents on the whole dog thing. I agree Ceasar is a TV actor first and a dog trainer second. I wouldn't say he knows nothing about dogs but his methods are outdated and yes, in some dogs they can be dangerous. I wouldn't go so far as to say there's no such thing as dominance in dogs. Ferrets in the wild would live solitary lives so this may be true for them but wolves have very structured hierarchies.

What was once misunderstood about wolves is how the "Alpha" wolf becomes the pack leader. It's rarely through battle and contest. L. David Mech (renowned wolf expert) now prefers to use the terms "breeding male" or "breeding female" because that is really what determines who leads that pack. Wolves only compete for dominance when thrown together in an unnatural setting where unrelated wolves are made to assimilate into one pack (such as in captivity).

Once the pack leaders are established, either naturally or unnaturally, there is certainly dominance. Everyone has a place in the pack, from the top dog to the bottom dog. However, the best leaders and the ones who lead the longest, don't rule with an iron paw. The "Alpha roll" is not natural. Subservient wolves choose to roll over for the leader as a sign of respect and trust. It's like they're saying, "Look. I'm harmless and helpless. I'm exposing my vulnerable belly to you because I trust you not to harm me." Scientists once thought the Alpha was forcing the subservient to roll over but more observation has shown this is not the case. This act can be seen in domestic dogs. A fearful, insecure dog isn't going to roll over for a belly rub but a trusting dog who is secure in his trust of humans, is happy to expose his belly. Forcing a dog to put himself in a vulnerable position when he doesn't feel he's safe is asking to get bit.

Dogs are, of course, no longer wolves. However, by bringing them into our homes, we become their pack. Even domestic dogs that are living "in the wild" without owners, will form packs. Dogs are not that far removed from wolves and still hold a pack mentality. The mistake people make is in thinking they need to force their dog to be subservient to them. Many dogs are naturally subservient and in a dog pack, would be happy to follow someone else. Some dogs are naturally more dominant and need to see that their human is the leader. However, truly dominant dogs are rare. Domestic dogs have been bred to be our companions and often what people mistake as dominance is just a lack of training. Most dogs are happy to be led by their human once given some motivation to do so. In a dog's mind, there needs to be a pack leader and if no one else is going to do it, then he needs to fill the role.

Just like with wolves, the leader who earns respect and rules fairly and clearly (in a way the dog understands) is the leader who continues to be the "Alpha". A dog that has been forced into being subservient doesn't respect his leader, he fears him and a fearful dog is a dangerous, unpredictable dog.

ANYWAY! Sorry to go off on an unrelated topic. I agree that the best course of action with the shoes is just to move them where he can't get them. Discipline really doesn't seem to have much effect on some ferrets and sometimes it's easier just to prevent them from misbehaving in the first place. I don't have an issue with scruffing mine but I understand this doesn't work with all ferrets. It does sound like most of his misbehaving is attention getting behavior. My advice would be to either ignore him or give him time outs. I know you said the time outs don't seem to have any effect but are you consistent with them? Every time he misbehaves, he gets a time out.

[taratee]

@ blue every time i catch him he does get a time out, but i was yelled at above and told that time outs were just for biting? i just cant seem to win

[bluemoose]

Well I guess it's a matter of opinion and what works for your personal ferret. Personally I think if the ferret knows where he's supposed to poop and he deliberately chooses somewhere like yours shoes, bed, or even the middle of the floor to go, there's nothing wrong with disciplining that behavior. Although as was already mentioned, you have to catch him in the act.

In the end, he's your ferret and it's up to you how you deal with him. You can't please everyone because everyone has their own ideas about how to handle the situation. Try to look at what other people tell you as advice and not as orders. No matter what you do in any aspect of life, there will be people who think it's wrong.