Opinion is needed about this grind and kibbles

[Sander]

From Big Country Raw I've decided to use the package of turkey, salmon and lamb blend for several reasons: it meets the minimum of 3 different protein sources, one of them being red meat, it meets the minimum of taurine and has a protein-to-fat ratio of about 2 to 1. But I've seen that for dogs and cats it's low in iodine, magnesium, thiamine and vitamin E and they need supplement, so I'm worry about if it could be also low for ferrets or that other ingredients could be too, that's why I had thought from the beginning of complement with kibble in a ratio of 60% grind and 40% kibble, or 70%-30% (I'm open to other suggestions that will be very welcome). Are all that levels enough for ferrets and could I feed it only with this grind without any problem or should I use something else?

As for which kibble to use, I've been checking ferret.love.com's ferret kibble chart and I'm between using Essence grain free (the Ranch & Meadow or the Air & Gamefowl variety) or Wysong Ferret Epigen 90 (not the digestive support variant because I saw that it has beet pulp and that's bad, right?).

On the one hand, Essence has a large percentage of meat (86%), variety of protein sources (4 and 3) and a protein-to-fat ratio of 2 to 1, BUT it has lentils and chickpeas and that's bad, right?

On the other hand, Epigen 90 does not specify the percentage of meat, it has only one protein source and the protein-to-fat ratio is 3.44 to 1, but it does not have any of the ingredients cited as dangerous.

Please guys if you can take a look at these kibbles and tell me which one should I use I would really appreciate it.

Thanks

[silentdook]

I will leave to answering about grinds to some one more familiar with them, for raw, I feed Stella & Chewy's Dinner Morsels and Mama Dawn's Magic Soupie, which is also freeze dried raw.

I don't think it's a good idea to mix raw and kibble, if you've got them on raw, stick to the raw for best species-appropriate diet.

That said, as far as kibbles:
Rule of thumb, most kibbles that claim grain-free are going to be suspect for having pea or some other protein that is a legume, often several so they can push them down the ingredient list, thus appearing to have very little. Legumes of any type have been connected to the formation of bladder stones in both cats and ferrets.
Going with Wysong, the Digestive Support is the preferred formula (beet pulp is just a source of fiber, which feeds intestinal flora, I don't know where the information came from that it's "bad").

A better kibble chart that is up to date is Ferret Care & Education, (linked) with the exception of Mazuri kibble. That one is my personal opinion because it has too much soy and soybean, which are legumes and have no business on a "pea free" chart. But Mazuri is doing a hard push in vet offices and with shelters and as far as I'm concerned, that's shady af.  (edited because I just checked and Mazuri is now off the chart, yay!)

I'm not a fan of Wysong myself because they aren't transparent with formula changes or their source of "meat broth" (whatever that means) but it is one of the better kibbles and is best fed mixed with something or the end result for most ferrets is loose stools.
For kibble fed ferrets that have been through my household, I like Totally Ferret Turkey, Lamb, Venison or Young Again Ferret, but they are costly on shipping and only available online. I've had to put Marshall's Premium in the mix for some who suffer from IBS, (they've upped their game in food and it's easily digested for those ferrets with issues). Oxbow has come out with a decent food that is great for mixing with the richer foods.

But these are only my opinions and there are those who would argue about it, but when dealing with a lot of rescued ferrets that are going back out to homes that won't be feeding raw for whatever reasons, it's a necessary evil to give them what they will eat.

[Corvidophile]

Silentdook had a great response regarding lentils and soys in grain free kibbles, and it’s also why I feel ok feeding Marshall’s kibble as a high value treat on occasion. The grains in there aren’t as harmful with their sugaryness as the other binder ingredients in grain free recipes can be. Overall, insulinoma is easily treatable for many years of the disease, whereas a single bladder stone can become stuck in the urethra and require surgery. And once it happens in a particular ferret, you know they’re inclined to make stones, so they’ve gotta be immediately switched to a different food which is a very difficult experience for many.

Feeding kibble and raw to the same ferret can be done, but it’s not ideal. Kibble is digested much more slowly than raw because it’s much drier and the carbs make it absorbent of water that is in the intestines. Freeze dried meats also require more water to be taken out of the system to be processed if they're fed without being rehydrated, but the water gets squeezed out fairly easily instead of all of it being lost. The intestines can adjust their speed of move-through based on what’s being eaten, but not back and forth the same day again and again. It tends to result in back and forth diarrhea on wetter food and constipation on drier food.

[Sander]

The reason to introduce and keep some kibble is for two reasons: 1, I'm afraid that maybe the raw will lack some essential minerals or vitamins, and 2, I want to habituate him to kibble in case I can't feed him raw, for example if we travel, I couldn't take the frozen grind with me. On the other hand, I worked at a zoo where we fed the ferrets kibble in the morning and whole prey at night and they seemed to do well (I cleaned up their poop).

As for beets, the covidophile said that it's high in oxalates, which cause kidney stones, such as legumes and potatoes. That being said, I've checked that kibbles list included Young Again (it has sugar that causes insulinoma, in fact in the ferret.love.com list it's in category c, that is, below of the Essence kibble, and the version for cats has carcinogens besides potato), and almost all of them have potatoes (and if not, they may have carbohydrates in another form, cus they're hight in carbs) that are high in oxalates (=kidney stones) and are also carbohydrates, which cause insulinoma, which is also very bad and requires surgery (*pulls his hair*). I want to cry, no kibble is good enough 😭. And I think Young Again is the worst because it has potato and sugar so it can cause both kidney stones and insulinoma, and it's not cheap for that. Well no, the worst is Marshall, which has carcinogens (in all the products that I've checked) and for nothing in the world I'm going to give my future ferret anything carcinogenic, no matter how little oxalates it has.

So if whatever I choose it's going to be bad one way or the other (which is why I want to feed only 30% kibble), what's the least bad thing I can choose?

It's true that the Essence kibble has chickpeas but I think it's worse to change the chickpeas for potatoes, at least they're also lower in the list of ingredients than the potatoes in those other kibbles, that are among the first 5 ingredients (and the further down the list the less quantity).

Please, help 😢

PD: I live in Canada and I can't get some American brands

[silentdook]

I agree with your reasoning for keeping them habituated, although freeze dried raw is easily transported and only requires warm water to be fed. Water is always going to be around

The whole "first five ingredients" is an outdated myth about foods, since it doesn't take into consideration that most foods list the meats with water included (70% water), making them look as though multiple meats are the top ingredients, when it may not be the case. Meat meal in any form is the dried version, therefore say Chicken Meal is a higher percentage of protein etc than even the rest of the ingredients behind it, AND the meat listed in front of it.

Anything that comes before the fat is going to be a higher percentage than the fat (if it's 20%, any other dry ingredients such as beans are going to comprise of over 20% of that food, meaning they are using that, and not all the meat, for protein).

Another myth to debunk:
Beet pulp is not the same ingredient as beets, and beet pulp is low in oxalates.

No kibble is going to be perfect as there has to be a starchy item to make the form of a "kibble." But there is also a great deal of misinformation, misunderstood ingredients and alarmist thinking about ingredients.
The only sugar I see in Young Again is Fructooligosaccharides, which are non-digestible sugars that feed the beneficial bacteria in the gut, they do not affect blood glucose levels. It is not fructose, which is the misconception. Those who are worried about the potato starch in Young Again Ferret Food instead choose Young Again Zero.

As for Essence, you might notice that they contain more than one form of legume, not only garbanzo beans/chickpeas, but also Red Lentils and in one formula, also Navy Beans. I find it disappointing that Ferret Love charts are only focused on peas and are ignoring other forms of legumes as somewhat safe. No legume is safe.

I hope that helps.
Safest of all would be feeding them rehydrated freeze-dried raw over any form of kibble. There is also an air-dried food called ZiwiPeak, but I am unfamiliar with it to know where it's available.

[Sander]

Thank you very much for the new information.

It's true that Young Again for cats doesn't have sugar, only fructooligosaccarides, but Young Again for ferrets besides it also has fructose (unless the ingredient list is incorrect).

I know freeze-dried raw or air-dried raw would be best but I can't afford them. I checked Stella & Chewy's and it costs a staggering 169CAD per kg, ZiwiPeak aroun 80CAD/kg and another two brands around 100CAD. If there are another cheaper options...(?) 🥲 (I'm scared to check more brands on the list for the prices I might find).

I don't know if it's accurate to calculate the cost per kilogram because in a store I saw a package of air-dried raw and the weight was very light compared to the volume, and I don't know how to calculate how long the package would last me because the supply indications came by pieces and I don't know how many pieces it contains a package. I can say that if I feed exclusively with the grind (13'25CAD/kg) assuming an average amount of 80g (based on indications of how much to feed Frankenprey) would mean an average cost of 32'41CAD per month, something that I can totally afford, up to 40 per month without any problem.

I think that Oxbow Essentials ferret food is not a bad option, although I don't like that the first ingredient is chicken meal (I've read bad things about meals), but if it really only has 10% carbohydrates and I only feed 30% (the other 70% raw grind with enough time between them) the final percentage would be at most 3%, so that a minimum amount of potato, right? Can we assume a zero or almost zero risk of insulinoma? And what about the oxalates in potatoes? Should I be worry? There would be risk of kidney stones?

If we apply the same calculation for Essence and assume a maximum amount of 25% carbohydrates (by calculating it's impossible to have more), would be only 7'5% of the total diet, would the amount of legumes associated with that percentage still be enough to cause kidney stones?

Thanks 🥲

PS: all prices are before taxes, which here in Quebec is 15%

[silentdook]

Oof prices are high in CAD!
And yes, Stella & Chewy's FDR is very light, so there's no comparing a dry weight to moisture in grinds. Most ferrets would eat about 5-7 pieces, for my two girls, the 510 gm bag lasts easily about 18 days, so that's less than two bags a month with daily meals.

The "bad things" you've heard about meal is probably "meat meal by-products" not simply meal. There is a big difference between the two. Food ingredients are complicated when we are first learning about them, don't be discouraged. I've been at this for over 20 years.

Can we assume a zero or almost zero risk of insulinoma? And what about the oxalates in potatoes? Should I be worry? There would be risk of kidney stones?

Unfortunately, with the genetics of ferrets, we can never assume zero risk of any illnesses or cancers, the best we can do is reduce the risk by feeding as low carb and species-appropriate as we can afford to do. The risk of kidney stones in ferrets is very low to begin with, of all the stones submitted to the Minnesota UIrolith Center, calcium oxalate is only about 11% of the totals. Besides, we aren't feeding them raw potatoes, it's simply the starch that binds kibble together.

the amount of legumes associated with that percentage still be enough to cause kidney stones?

Legumes cause bladder stones, not kidney stones. With some ferrets having a genetic predisposition to them, IMO, no amount of legumes can be considered safe. The worst part is that we don't know which ferret has those genetics until they are already suffering a painful (and expensive to surgically remove, if not fatal) blockage from the stones. And invariably, it will happen on a Saturday night when the only option is an emergency vet because they must be treated immediately when it happens. I may be super paranoid as I've held a near dying ferret with an abdominal cath/needle in my arms one New Years Eve, praying he would make it to the emergency surgery at 11 am the next morning, and had to spend thousands on a cat that had repeated instances of blockages in his urethra. I've seen countless ferrets die from the stones and sudden blockages, and heartbroken owners not have the money to save them. Anyone who hasn't been through these rescue battles may not feel as strongly about it. Okay, enough of that.

That said, only you can decide if you feel it's okay since you are feeding mainly other BETTER food, the raw.

If it were me, taking it all into consideration, budget and healthwise, I'd feed occasional fdr soupies, (to keep them used to eating it for travel/emergencies) and mainly your grinds (I wish someone would weigh in on that, perhaps you can just search the forum for recent posts), and if I went with meals of kibbles, I would choose Oxbow over Essence. The fact that you are going to feed mostly grind and only fully do other foods is when traveling is definitely keeping the risks lower. Raw is always best.

Re: young again ferret food
I don't know where they are getting the ingredient list with fructose on it for YAF, but there isn't any, unless it's the person who wrote the chart confusing fructooligosaccarides with fructose. There is a small amount of sucrose, though, you're right. For that reason, I would use the Young Again Cat 50/22 as a mixer, not the ferret formula. But I don't use it anymore, my preference is Totally Ferret TLV mixed. I'm pretty sure it would be outrageously pricey to ship EITHER of those to Canada, EEK!!

[Sander]

Thank you very much for your answer. Maybe I'll be more comfortable using Oxbow Essentials (because I know more precisely the amount of carbohydrates and I can get a better idea of ​​how much oxalates) but not much because I just realized I made a mistake. It's not potato or anything related to potatoes that this kibble has, but rice flour, and I've searched for the amount of oxalates that rice flour, potatoes, peas, lentils and chickpeas have (I've realized that practically everything has oxalates, including meat, fish and eggs). Rice flour has 6mg per 100g, which puts it above boiled potatoes and peas and canned chickpeas (2'3mg, 1'3mg and 4'8mg respectively). So I don't know what to do.

In Ferrets, is the risk of bladder stones greater than in the kidneys? Actually when I talk about kidney stones I mean all stones in general.

What are fdr soupies?

[Sander]

I've just thought while traveling or other occasion where I can't feed grind I could feed canned food, the texture would be similar to grind so there should be no need to habituate him from the beginning right? It would be a little expensive because the price per kilogram is around 21CAD (like Oxbow's kibble) and I think I would have to feed more than kibble since it's mostly water, but if I don't have to feed canned food often but only on those rare occasions it would end up being cheaper in the long run. But I'm still worry about if I just feed with grind the ferret could be missing some essential mineral or vitamin.

[unclejoe]

FDR is freeze-dried raw. you can make soupies by adding warm water and letting the dried meat rehydrate into mush. Freeze-dried raw meat keeps forever, and is easily packed for vacations/travel. It just needs a few minutes to reconstitute after adding water.