New to Raw Feedings

[dummyandchonky]

Hey, y'all!

So, my partner and I have two 1 year old male ferrets (Church and Caboose! Hence the username, ), and they have been on Wysong Epigen 90 their entire lives as the person who owned them before us had them on it. We've had them for about 8 months now, I believe, and they have had ferret coronavirus as well as helicobacter because the person who owned them didn't take as good of care as she previously told us. Recently, we have gotten them cleared of the FC but not of the helicobacter, as the vet and us agreed on waiting to do another test for it since they had continued to test positive despite 2 rounds of antibiotics.

We talked with her about their food and how they continue to have seedy poops and (what I assume is) diarrhea, and we agreed on attempting to switch their food since, from what I've read, Wysong isn't the best choice for them. My partner and I originally were going to just do freeze dried (the boys like to soak their kibble anyhow, so we figured wet freeze dried food would be an easier switch) but it seems like raw is just going to be cheaper. 

The issue that I'm having is that I have done weeks and weeks of research (using this forum for a LOT of it) and I still feel terrified to switch. I have all the ratios and stuff, but I have about a thousand other questions still. I want to ensure we are taking the best care of our boys as possible, but I'm so scared that we aren't ready to feed raw since it's all on us to make sure it's proportioned well enough. 

So, here are some questions (like I said, there are a LOT, so for the meantime I will limit it to just a few): 
1) Is there a way to get an already balanced package of raw food for them so we don't have to worry (at the moment) about trying to get all the normal meat and bone chunks until we feel more secure about the raw feeding? 
    a) If so, is that an okay thing to feed two-three times a day or do we need something else added in? Like how long can they be on this or do they ever even have to switch to raw food chunks? 
3) How in the world do we know if they are doing okay health wise when it comes to the switch? 
4) While we are switching them, do we still leave kibble in the cage? 
5) I saw something about not using plastic when feeding them, what's up with that? And if it's not okay, I assume ceramic is, but how big of a bowl are we talking? 
6) Do we feed them once in the morning and once before bed and that's it? Or do we split the morning food and night food? Do we leave some in the cage? 
7) How much meat do we even need? Like in pounds? 
8) How expensive is raw food and freeze dried going to be compared to buying Wysong like ... Idk, let's say once a month? (I have ADHD and dyscalulia so a chart of some sort comparing would be extremely helpful )
9) Finally, If FDR works for the meantime (and if balanced meat isn't a thing) what brands work? How much of that do we give them?

I know that's a lot, like I said, I have even more, but I think those are my top few. I just want to make sure we are doing the best for our boys, and we are hoping that a raw food diet, which is what ferrets are supposed to be eating anyways, will help their bellies out and help them get rid of that seedy diarrhea. I am very scared about switching so any information, tips, advice are absolutely accepted and needed. Again, I have done a LOT of research and used this forum a TON for information, but despite all of that, I am still terrified to switch and just need a bit of guidance. Thank you so much for helping! 

[Corvidophile]

Hello and welcome! My ferret’s name is Churchill and I call him Church for short. First, don’t fret. Putting pets on a fresh food diet isn’t as hard as it may seem. You eat a fresh food diet instead of kibble and you’re not dead because you didn’t get 100% of every single correct vitamin and protein and carb and fat every single day, right? You just need to average it out over time, and the time recommended to set carnivore diets to is about a week.

1. Yes, you can generally buy prepackaged raw all-in-one ground meals for ferrets. What country do you live in? This will decide what companies you can use. You want stuff that’s advertised as being for cats, NOT dogs. You can work with a dog diet as a base but you’ll have to add extras to it, namely taurine. They can eat this forever, but they’ll need their teeth to be brushed because the ground meat sticks to them. 2-3 meals a day is perfect.

3. (you seem to have accidentally skipped 2, haha)
Check their general body condition- fat, muscle tone, energy level, clear skin, full coat (unless adrenal disease comes along), teeth and gums, ear gunk, nail strength, breathing clear, poops as to be expected (solid logs for bone in meals, loose piles for organ meals or eggs, no seeds or foam unless they’re adjusting to a brand new diet [which yours will be, so poops may be weird for a while], no blood or green mucous). Just the general things to keep an eye on no matter what you’re feeding.

4. It’s generally recommended not to mix kibble and raw feeding because they act differently in the digestive tract and the combo can cause diarrhea. Kibble steals moisture from the intestines, raw food adds water to the intestines that needs to be absorbed. Also, ferrets tend to stick to eating what they’re used to. If they have kibble all the time, they won’t be as eager to try the raw food. What is generally recommended is, you try to feed them raw for half a day, and if they’re refusing to eat it give them a small kibble meal so they’re not starving, then try again a few hours later.

5. You can use hard plastic if you’re cleaning it thoroughly and frequently, but not softer ones, and watch out for surface scratches forming. The reason is just germs building up. You can use metal, ceramic, or glass for more peace of mind. Just needs to be big enough to hold your two ferrets’ worth of meals for half a day, or however long you’re gone for the longest time, overnight or for work.

6. Most people try and leave enough food with the ferrets so that they finish it by the time the next meal comes along with little or no leftovers. Some ferrets are good eaters and will finish whatever you put in front of them, those are the ones you’ll have to accept them leaving their bowls empty for a while until the next meal as they eat all their food upfront, and some ferrets are poor eaters and will leave you with leftovers you have to throw out because of bacteria growth after a certain number of hours that you wish they would just eat it all.

7. Depends on how big your available freezer space to dedicate to ferret meals is. The bigger in bulk you buy, the cheaper it becomes over time generally. Shipping costs are also reduced for fewer, larger shipments if you’re buying meat online. Most meats can be frozen between six months to a year without becoming freezer burnt, depends on how many defrost cycles your freezer goes through. Freezer burnt meat isn’t spoiled, it just tastes a little stale, and the vitamin content is reduced slowly over time, so you can still hurry up and feed it to them if it starts getting frosty.

8. I don’t remember how much Wysong costs and haven’t bought freeze dried full meals (just freeze dried minnows and liver chunks to use as treats), but generally feeding raw human grade meat is surprisingly cheaper than most quality pet foods. For example, I pay about $2.50 a pound for chicken organs, about $6 a pound for beef chuck, about $6.50 a pound for whole rabbits that I cut up, about $4 a pound for chicken wings, and about $4 a pound for pork chops. I could pay as little as $2.50 a pound if I bought giant pork butts or shoulders, but mine gets pork so infrequently and it’s so much meat to store that I opt to go for a smaller cut. Meat prices by you will vary. Browse the meat section of your local butcher, remember to check Asian and Latino butchers for organ meats and things like whole quail, or check out prices at raw pet food online sellers.

9. What country you’re in will determine the answer to what’s available to you, but generally the freeze dried complete diets are all serious enough about pet health that they’re truly complete diets that need no supplementation, regardless of brand. That’s why freeze dried costs an arm and a leg, haha. It can be fed dry, but it’s recommended to rehydrate it for them, to make sure they’re getting enough fluid in their diet.

The back of the packages will give you guidelines on what amount to feed, some are denser than others on fat content for instance. You’re frequently going to have to pretend your ferret is a cat when buying prepackaged food. Ferrets do require more calories than adult cats of the same size in theory, but a cat the size of a ferret is going to be a growing kitten, whose general feeding guidelines are typically “feed it all it will eat,” so you’ll have to look at the adult cat chart and do some math to get the guidelines down to your ferrets’ average weight. Then just do the same as for fresh food, weigh them every week or two and increase or decrease their food intake to get them to either gain or lose weight to reach their ideal body condition.

Again, the ferrets are not going to implode if you screw up a little with portions at first! They don’t require you to feed them perfectly every meal or they croak. You just have to average it out. The most difficult part of feeding raw is convincing them to put it into their mouths in the first place, and you might get lucky and have adventurous eaters.

[redvsblue]

Hello! Wow, that's hilarious because ours is just named Church, but when he's in trouble, I like to call him Churchill! Thank you for saying that as well, because I have been flat-out TERRIFIED of switching because I don't want to get anything wrong and hurt them.

1) I'm in the US. I have been basically trying to do ONLY cat stuff (well, besides ferret-oriented stuff, but I'm guessing you know what I mean ) because that always seems like the better option.
3) Wow, I am so dumb, I read over that message more than once and I didn’t even realize But I can do that; we already cut their nails, brush their teeth, and clean their ears out every Sunday, but I can bump it up to 2x a week if that's better. Or just doing their teeth more than once a week, might work better now that I think about it. Is there a "cheat sheet" of sorts I could use to determine those healthy conditions? Just so I would be able to use that to make sure everything is "up to code".
4) Okay, that works! That seemed to be the general answer, I just needed to check because information about ferrets is so conflicting and I was terrified that I'd starve them if I just took their kibble out and then just tried to get them to eat raw foods because everyone was saying to not mix them. I just didn't want to do the transition and not give them any kibble since they would be so hungry, but I realize that not mixing them means not doing whole raw food meals AND kibble, or literally mixing them together in one bowl.
5) Yeah, I think ceramic might be the better option over plastic! Is there a recommended oz or something for bowls to raw feed?
6) Unfortunately, I think we have both of those One is a lot more likely to chomp everything down, and the other likes to leave some in the bowl to come back and pick at it (which is Church and that's very ironic since he's very chonky), so I will also have to watch for that too!
7) Okay, that's very good to know so thank you! My partner and I are still in college (well, he actually graduates this month and I only have a semester left of undergrad) so our finances are a liiiittle tight and he's been very concerned about how much money raw feeding might be and this, as well as the next thing you answered, will help make him feel a little better!
8) It's about $25 (without tax or shipping costs) for 5Ibs which I believe gives us about a month's (give or take) worth of food. But that's awesome, like I said, finances aren't where we want them to be, so this helps a ton!
9) Oh, I wouldn't want to feed them dry anyways because they LOVE to soak their kibble in water, which is actually one of the reasons why we started talking about switching, the biggest reason being dealing with their stomach issues.

Okay! If possible, could I get some more information about this? (either from you, if you could provide it of course, or from another site just detailing the information ?) I have ADHD and autism and having detailed instructions helps me out a ton and makes sure I know all of what I'm supposed to be doing! I'm also flat-out horrible with math (thanks dyscalculia) so is there also something else I could turn to that would help give some instructions on how to determine how much food to give each one, how much the ratios actually stack up to be, and like … how to figure out how much each container will last us? Really, any possible way I could get math instructions on ferrets would be incredibly helpful But if not, don't even worry about it, you've already been an incredible help!

I think we are going to be lucky with Caboose, I've been doing a prepacked dook soup to try and make sure they're going to be fine with grind consistency (as well as to help their little bellies), and he seems to have taken a VERY big liking to it (and only leaves the tiniest bit in his bowl, but of course tries to steal Church's who takes a bit longer to eat than he does ) so I'm hoping that means he'll be a little better with the transition!

Also, about the grinds, is that totally cool to do? I am scared of frankenprey at the moment, but I still want to switch them asap (more so, start the process asap) and I just want to make sure that's okay to do ! I've been highly recommended Raw Feeding Miami, and have found My Pet Carnivore, which is much closer to us (we are in KY) but I was just wondering if you had any places like that to recommend? I have the entire list of places that do raw meats from this forum, but I am just curious!

I wanted to thank you SO MUCH for helping me though! I am also in a discord group for ferret chat and I had explained to them that I had done a TON of research to try and understand raw feeding, and while I know that I have a lot of my answers literally in front of me, my ADHD and autism need clarification desperately and the admin there refused to help me, basically telling me that raw feeding isn't for everyone, since I have ADHD and "can't read directions very well" that I shouldn't raw feed at all, and that I was going to kill my ferrets since I didn't do the proper research. But again, I DID do the research, I have an entire document dedicated to it, I just need clarification about the tiniest little things so I can make sure I am doing this correctly for my boys. You were, and are, extremely kind about the information and the way you are letting me know how to go about this and I really appreciate it! Thank you!!! 

[Corvidophile]

I’ll help where I can! I’m a little short on time at the moment so I want to hit a few points-

Know Better makes a powder that you mix into any ground meat that’s perfect for starting out with grinds as it doesn’t have bone chunks, they use calcium carbonate. It’s what I used when my last ferret got older and started refusing more solid chunks. The smallest trial size makes six pounds of food and is $20, the only added cost is the ground meat itself. You mix it like you’re making a meatloaf in a bowl and then put it into ice cube trays to freeze, then pop them out once they’re solid and store them in a bag in the freezer, and take a few cubes out at a time to defrost for the next meal coming up. www.knowbetterpetfood.com/products/know-better-for-cats-beef-recipe?variant=27302527112

For two ferrets, if they’re sharing one bowl, I’d say it should be able to hold 8 oz at a time. Most ferrets will eat between 2-4 oz of meat in a meal. It’s hard to figure the cost upfront because you never know how much a particular ferret will eat until you’re already there doing it for a while, so I’d suggest setting out I guess 3 oz per ferret at first and adjusting from there based on how quickly they finish it. This is why I like ice cube trays for portioning grinds, not just what I linked but any whole prey grinds as well, the cubes are 1 oz each so it’s easy to portion out. For frankenprey portioning, if you’re not using a food scale to measure it out, it’s good to remember that 4 oz of meat is about the size of a deck of playing cards.

[Corvidophile]

I’m back- the links you already found to the forum’s recommended online suppliers are all I know of aside from Know Better, which is a different type of product. There’s also Instinct brand frozen food, which can be found in person at some pet stores or shipped online from Chewy. It’s a bunch of little frozen nuggets of raw food that defrost quickly. www.chewy.com/instinct-bites-chicken-recipe-grain/dp/344761

I don’t know of any cheat sheet of ferret health guidelines, unfortunately. I can say that when you hold them up dangling by their armpits, they should be smooth like a tube sock. If their bellies bulge out to the sides, they’re a bit fat, if their bellies dip in in an hourglass shape, they’re too thin. A sudden-looking bulge on one side of the ferret only is an enlarged spleen. Many ferrets get this as they age and they should have bloodwork done yearly to make sure it isn’t because of a tumor growing.

Speaking of bloodwork, I’m a big advocate of getting their glucose checked yearly to catch insulinoma early on. The test should run you about $30 and you’ll know in minutes whether the results show low blood sugar or not. A ferret should not be below 70, and ideally should be about 100-130. You should fast them for three hours before the glucose test. You probably don’t have to start checking until they’re four years old if they’re not showing signs of it.

[redvsblue]

Okay, so sorry for the late response! There's been a LOT happening!

So, with the Know Better, how do we do that? Do we need to get a specific ground meat? Like does chicken work better than beef or something? Do I grind it myself, or can I? And do we need to add anything for any nutrients or anything or is it good the way it is? And since it's just a good start, does that mean once they are eating it fairly well, we can switch to grinds?

Their bowls are a good size so that works, thank you!

I've heard about Instinct! Is is a good starter to raw foods? Does it need to have any additives?

That's okay! I will see if I can find something, or make something, and then possibly post it to the forum!

Oh yeah, I want us to get a yearly check for the boys so we can make sure to catch anything sooner rather than later. Of course, we'd be taking them whenever something seems wrong, but I think a yearly, or even twice a year for me would be better for my anxiety

[Corvidophile]

Mixing Know Better is just like massaging ingredients into meatloaf. You measure out the powder and water into a large mixing bowl, you buy any animal’s ground meat that’s between 15% and 20% fat at the grocery store- beef, chicken, turkey, pork, lamb, whatever you find- and you mix it in by squishing it and turning it over in your hands. Then you portion it out into ice cube trays (silicone ones pop out the easiest) and freeze it so that it stays fresh and you can make large batches. I always used two pounds of meat at a time. On the back of the bag, it lists the amount of powder and water to add for different amounts of meat.

Instinct raw foods are complete, no need to add anything, and they also sell freeze dried foods.

Both of these you can keep a ferret on for a lifetime, but using them to get used to eating raw meat and then switching to frankenprey when you feel comfortable will be cheaper. Switching to chunkier whole prey grinds is an option, too.

[redvsblue]

Awesome! Thank you so much this is extremely helpful! I think we might do the Know Better first and then go from there! Just in case though, for the Raw Instinct ones, do we do kitten or adult cat sizes? 

[Corvidophile]

I’m not sure, they each list slightly different protein and fat percentage breakdowns but only slightly and both fall within appropriate feeding guidelines for ferrets.

[redvsblue]

We chose to do the Know Better! I just wanted to make sure; is that and the chicken grind all we need for this? We don't need to add any supplements or anything?

[Corvidophile]

Correct, nothing else needed. Good luck with the switch!