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Post by silentdook on Oct 8, 2022 21:04:04 GMT -5
I didn't see a specific folder for bacterial overload, but I trust so many of you here. We're fighting a suspected bad Helicobacter overload, probably ulcer. Blockages were ruled out, but she could not keep food down. She's only 4 and we recently lost her buddy, the elder males aren't much fun to play with, and a former foster was recently re-introduced but she hasn't felt well enough to play with that bundle of energy.
We've been in twice this week for fluids and Cerenia injections for the nausea. Poop is dark and seedy, her stomach was extremely gassy, never heard those sounds from a ferret before, like giant belch bubbles.
She's on Famotidine .05 twice day, Amoxycillin .25 twice a day, Cerenia oral every 24 hours, and a generic cherry flavor bismuth subsalicylate .4ml three times a day. She had two injections of the Cerenia but was still regurgitating after trying to take even a bland rescue diet, so he looked up up using it orally and sent three syringes to give her each day over the weekend. It's working, she's actually keeping food down, and hungry for the small frequent feedings vet advised of chicken baby food, hwc, and warm water. He's an old school vet, calls it his own duck soup recipe. I have slowly added in her Stella & Chewy's raw as she has been able to tolerate it and I want to drop the cream, based on the talk about dairy and ferrets.
..and if anyone experienced with this can give me advice for talking to my vet (30+ years of working with ferret rescues, he's not inexperienced here, and he's certainly pulled through some tough cases). My concern is with using bismuth salicylate, I'd appreciate resources to share. I've read so many research studies about it being effective short-term, am I being overly concerned if it's just to get her over the weekend crisis?
Appreciate any input.
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Post by Corvidophile on Oct 9, 2022 7:11:38 GMT -5
Heavy cream is much better than milk for ferrets because it has very little lactose, it’s all fat and protein. It can cause diarrhea still, but I wouldn’t worry about it nutritionally. It’s a very good source of calories and I’d keep it in until she’s back to eating her regular diet. I unfortunately haven’t researched pepto bismol in ferrets yet, as I haven’t had this come up in mine before. Good luck getting her over this hump, it can be scary. How long has she been on the amoxicillin so far, and how long is the whole treatment planned to be?
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Post by silentdook on Oct 9, 2022 9:03:09 GMT -5
How long has she been on the amoxicillin so far, and how long is the whole treatment planned to be? Thank you so much, she's been on it for 5 days so far. The plan looks like 60 days worth of amoxy, going by how much they gave me, and doc wants me to check in tomorrow with how things are going. I didn't have to give her the Cerenia this morning, as she was eager to eat and didn't spit any back up at midnight. A glimmer of good news is I weighed her after it, and she's actually gained 15 gms, instead of losing. |
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Post by Corvidophile on Oct 9, 2022 17:28:21 GMT -5
Yeesh, that’s a long time, and you’re just getting started. I hope she’s good at taking her meds. I wish you luck! Sounds like things are looking up so far.
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Post by silentdook on Oct 10, 2022 19:21:51 GMT -5
Yeesh, that’s a long time, and you’re just getting started. I hope she’s good at taking her meds. I wish you luck! Sounds like things are looking up so far. I found a generic no sugar no alcohol pepto that she takes without fighting me, so that's encouraging. I'm going to make a video giving it to her because the vet won't believe it. I was able to leave out the Cerenia this morning and so far, no puking. But if I don't keep her soup intake every 3 hours, she starts showing signs of hypoglycemia. Maybe she has silent insulinoma that created the overload. BUT, she had gained 50 gms as of weighing her this morning. |
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Post by Corvidophile on Oct 10, 2022 20:24:10 GMT -5
I don’t think insulinoma leads to heliobacter infections, but they could be concurrent. A glucose check should be pretty cheap. She should be fasted for six hours ideally before the test, but bad insulinoma will show up regardless of food timing.
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Post by unclejoe on Oct 11, 2022 7:56:58 GMT -5
I have seen a lot of ferants come out against bismuth salicylate, yet I have seen it on lists of meds approved by some ferret vets. I recommend sucralfate in its place, as it is approved by all vets.
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Post by Sherry Stone on Oct 11, 2022 10:39:33 GMT -5
The problem with bismuth salicylate is it is an aspirin base. Which can easily make ulcers worse. At one time, it had a different base and that is likely why vets still recommend it.
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Post by eclipso on Oct 14, 2022 9:53:53 GMT -5
If she has ulcers, she can show lack of appetite since it's painful to eat. You could try raw egg and the soft foods are great. Clavamox I think helps cover ulcers and remember it could be due to stress from her recent loss.
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Post by silentdook on Oct 17, 2022 23:30:39 GMT -5
Has anyone found ANY concrete evidence or veterinary warnings about bismuth subsalicylate or any research showing that it should not be used, considering even aspirin is an approved pain medication when used in proper doses by veterinarians? All I'm finding is a lot of speculation and nothing of substance.
I looked up study after study about the use of bismuth subsalicylate in eliminating Helicobacter, and have not found any evidence of a change in the Original Pepto-Bismol formula, besides a new version called Ultra Pepto Bismol. (However the drug Kaopectate was changed from Kaolin and Pectin to Salicylate, perhaps it's being confused?)
I found a generic version at Walgreens that doesn't contain ingredients in the brand name (Magnesium Aluminum Silicate, Methylcellulose, Salicylic Acid, Sodium Salicylate, & Sorbic Acid). It's cherry flavored and she takes it willingly.
Sucralfate is only a stomach coating, it has no antimicrobial properties, which is why our vet uses bismuth subsalicylate.* He says it is safe when used as directed, and in conjunction with the famotidine and amoxycillin.
I have another ferret with insulinoma, so I'm familiar with doing BG checks. It only takes a 3 hour fast for ferrets.
* Bismuth salts possess bactericidal and antimicrobial activity, mainly by preventing bacteria from binding and growing on the mucosal cells of the stomach. It has no effects on normal gut flora. By preventing bacteria from binding to mucosal cells, bismuth subsalicylate prevents intestinal secretion and fluid loss, promotes fluid and electrolyte reabsorption, reduces gastrointestinal inflammation, and promotes the healing of pre-existing ulcer in the stomach. Salicylic acid from dissociated bismuth subsalicylate adds to the anti-inflammatory actions of bismuth salts by inhibiting the cyclooxygenase enzyme and limiting the formation of prostaglandin, a pro-inflammatory mediator. Bismuth subsalicylate exhibits cytoprotective and demulcent activity, which makes it an effective drug in peptic ulcer disease. It blocks the adhesion of H. pylori to the gastric epithelial cells and blocks the bacteria's enzyme activities, including phospholipase, protease, and urease.
Salicylates are excreted in urine.
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Post by unclejoe on Oct 19, 2022 16:30:36 GMT -5
interestingly, there is a discussion on this very topic on ferrethealth@groups.io, which is th eformer ferret health list, FHL.
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