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Post by boogerybooger on Feb 17, 2017 1:25:24 GMT -5
UPDATE: Hi ladies, He had a beef chunk and two beef cubes for thick soup. Looks like he threw up soup and left beef chunk. How long can ground beef cubes be in the fridge? on Sunday, I put 2 frozen cubes in a small bowl in the fridge (along with a lot of his other food bowls for him while away) for my son to feed him, but that one was still in there this morning so I gave it to him. I'm afraid it might have been bad. Next issue at hand besides still getting him to eat chunks, is how to figure amounts for the frankenprey weekly menu. I don't do percentages very well! Is there an example formula spelled out a bit more for the frankenprey menu or do I go by the oz he eats per day as one of the meals X the meals per day times 7 days. I'm sure I will get it once I start doing it, but feeling lost about how to figure it out even with the menu given on the forum. Thanks for all the help!!!
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Post by LindaM on Feb 17, 2017 2:40:34 GMT -5
He threw up from it? The soup was made from the ground beef, yes? I can't recall right now, but was this his first time eating beef?
Hmm.. Sunday... It could be that the beef spoiled in the fridge, my fridge is set pretty cold, and to the back of it, it will actually keep frozen items mostly frozen for about 2 days or more. But closer to the front it will thaw out, and I try to use any thawing food within 2 days or it starts looking funny to me, most especially things like soups and purees since it tends to separate a bit. Fresh-made soup kept in the fridge, I try and use within 3 days maximum. Fresh meats I will use or freeze by the date on the package, but frozen and then thawed meat I try to use within 2 days preferably.
Usually ferrets won't eat something that has gone bad in their opinion, so sometimes even if meat smells a little off to us, they'll still eat it. If it's really bad, they won't.
As for the frankenprey menu, well most of us portion out our meals into specific amounts and work with the amounts our ferrets eat. Adult females will eat on average 1-3oz a day, and adult males will do around 2-4oz a day (sometimes 3-6oz for some). And kits can easily pack away several times those amounts by comparison. Which is why we weigh their food, and at first during the switching, we keep giving food until only a little remains on the plate just to get an idea of how much they eat. If he consistently eats until only a little remains, then he's probably getting his fill. You can use that information. The basic frankenprey menu on here tells you how much of eat type of meal he needs through the week, so using that and keeping in mind what amounts he eats on average per day can let you know how much to portion for every meal.
What I personally do is I weigh and portion meals into 2.3oz (I only use 2oz of it) and 4oz containers and freeze them (my bone-in meals get ziplocked instead). Those are usually easy amounts for me to use between my two ferrets, I just take out as many containers as I need and thaw for the next day. Some days all of it gets eaten, and sometimes a bit goes to waste, but I don't ever have to throw out whole bowls of food since I don't need to thaw huge excesses of it.
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Post by boogerybooger on Feb 17, 2017 9:58:40 GMT -5
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Post by boogerybooger on Feb 17, 2017 15:08:15 GMT -5
He threw up from it? The soup was made from the ground beef, yes? I can't recall right now, but was this his first time eating beef? Hmm.. Sunday... It could be that the beef spoiled in the fridge, my fridge is set pretty cold, and to the back of it, it will actually keep frozen items mostly frozen for about 2 days or more. But closer to the front it will thaw out, and I try to use any thawing food within 2 days or it starts looking funny to me, most especially things like soups and purees since it tends to separate a bit. Fresh-made soup kept in the fridge, I try and use within 3 days maximum. Fresh meats I will use or freeze by the date on the package, but frozen and then thawed meat I try to use within 2 days preferably. Usually ferrets won't eat something that has gone bad in their opinion, so sometimes even if meat smells a little off to us, they'll still eat it. If it's really bad, they won't. As for the frankenprey menu, well most of us portion out our meals into specific amounts and work with the amounts our ferrets eat. Adult females will eat on average 1-3oz a day, and adult males will do around 2-4oz a day (sometimes 3-6oz for some). And kits can easily pack away several times those amounts by comparison. Which is why we weigh their food, and at first during the switching, we keep giving food until only a little remains on the plate just to get an idea of how much they eat. If he consistently eats until only a little remains, then he's probably getting his fill. You can use that information. The basic frankenprey menu on here tells you how much of eat type of meal he needs through the week, so using that and keeping in mind what amounts he eats on average per day can let you know how much to portion for every meal. What I personally do is I weigh and portion meals into 2.3oz (I only use 2oz of it) and 4oz containers and freeze them (my bone-in meals get ziplocked instead). Those are usually easy amounts for me to use between my two ferrets, I just take out as many containers as I need and thaw for the next day. Some days all of it gets eaten, and sometimes a bit goes to waste, but I don't ever have to throw out whole bowls of food since I don't need to thaw huge excesses of it. yES the soup was from grass fed ground beef, beef heart, and beef liver a little more than 1/2 t. egg shell powder. Until he started raw and got the DES implant, to our knowledge he had never thrown up before. Now seems he's puked rabbit and beef. Rabbit may have been the first time, but the beef was not. He had eaten it as soup and chunk form (only one small chunk). It's good to know that they usually won't eat it if it is bad. I'm so worried about the little guy. Even though he's gained a little weight in the past couple of days, his tail looks to have lost some more hair. Vet said could take up to 3 months to regrow his hair! but his tail looks like less hair I'm worried he is not getting proper nutrients- that maybe he's been on soup too long or maybe since he's always been on the small side, maybe he's got some unusual requirements that I don't know about yet. Or could it be his implant doesn't work? . UGH it's tough to be a ferrent- rather for me, a grandferrent! I love it though- love him!!
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Post by LindaM on Feb 17, 2017 15:47:39 GMT -5
I've actually never had any of my two throw up from food before. Sick ferrets will throw up, and they will throw up when they have a sensitivity to a certain protein (most often chicken, but sometimes others too), or if they have a blockage. How is his energy levels doing right now? Is he still going around playing and wandering about? Or is he mostly sleeping and lethargic? Has he been doing better at all since he got the implant? You said he's puked again, "rabbit and beef", do you mean he's puked up rabbit now and then the previous time he puked up beef, or did he now puke up a mix of rabbit and beef this time? Is he displaying any other symptoms? Maybe scratching at his mouth? Or super thin stools that could indicate a blockage? Do you give him his weekly egg to help prevent hairballs? Is he still drinking and trying to eat on his own, or is he displaying some lack of appetite too? Sorry, it's a lot of questions. I'm also gonna tag some of the admins that may be better able to offer some advice right now. Sherry , Heather , katt
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Post by boogerybooger on Feb 17, 2017 17:06:32 GMT -5
How is his energy levels doing right now? pretty good, but I'll know more when I take him for a stroll.Is he still going around playing and wandering about? Or is he mostly sleeping and lethargic? Has he been doing better at all since he got the implant? I can't really tell yet.
You said he's puked again, "rabbit and beef", do you mean he's puked up rabbit now and then the previous time he puked up beef, or did he now puke up a mix of rabbit and beef this time? Sorry, I was just giving his puke history- rabbit early on, but beef recent- yesterday.Is he displaying any other symptoms? Maybe scratching at his mouth? No, but he is still itchy.Or super thin stools that could indicate a blockage? No his recent stool was small and more on the dry side.Do you give him his weekly egg to help prevent hairballs? Yes. but he s a few days past his week- should have been Tuesday- yikes!!Is he still drinking and trying to eat on his own, or is he displaying some lack of appetite too? He's eating, just found part of the quail leg in his den, but he hasn't eaten the lamb muscle- he may have nibbled it- he loves the lamb soup! He had froglegs for breakfast.Odd thing to me was he peed in a strange place where he normally wouldn't-- there's no corner there.THANK YOU for all the questions!I will report back in a little while.
Read more: holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/22519/long-soupy-puree-stage#ixzz4YyxhHpls
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Post by LindaM on Feb 17, 2017 17:25:11 GMT -5
Okay, phew, it got a bit scary there for a second. If he was puking 2 days in a row, it could've meant a blockage may be present, but it sounds more okay now. It may have just been a freak occurrence in this case. But I'd still just keep an eye on him and see how he does over the next while.
So he's been eating okay today? Did he eat the frog's legs?
His recent stool could be that way from the bone he may be consuming. Bone-in meals create firmer poops than just muscle meat or soups, and organs make nasty runny poops. Raw poops tend to be much smaller than kibble poops too. Just keep an eye on his poops for now. And bear in mind, if poops become very stiff and chalky it means he may be getting too much bone, or if his poops are very runny it means too little bone.
As for peeing or even pooping without a corner.. that's actually pretty normal still. It will happen when they're too busy having fun to use the potty, not gonna make it in time, or even a protest poop. I washed the bedding in our cage the other day, and I didn't replace everything immediately with a fresh set, and instead closed the cage off. They were definitely not happy about that, even though they only use the cage to sleep at night. I ended up with some nice poops right in front of where their exit ramp would be. Athena has even gone and pooped in a litterbox or a pad before, and then run off to somewhere else and just peed on the floor. Thank goodness that isn't happening anymore.
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Post by boogerybooger on Feb 17, 2017 18:22:31 GMT -5
Ok he LOVED the egg yolk more than usual. I've never seem him lick anything as much as he licked that empty bowl. If I knew it was ok for more, I would have given him a bit more. He had fun outside scurrying around, but he never outright tried to run. Once inside we played fetch the squeaky piggie. He took it in his den where he had a piece of quail leftover from his breakfast of froglegs with one quail leg. He only ate the frogleggs. But then after his outdoor excursion, he finished off the quail in no time. I just put him to bed with his lamb chunks. He is obviously active, but with more hair gone from his tail and his thin little body, I'm still worried about him thanks for all the help!!!!
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Post by katt on Feb 17, 2017 18:31:01 GMT -5
Des does not help with fur growth in many ferrets. It treats the underlying disease but doesn't always help the fur, which is really mostly a cosmetic issue unless they bald enough to have thermoregulatjin issues. The melatonin implant in ADDITION to Des will help with the fur much more. But don't expect any major changes until his next seasonal coat change.
As for the vomiting, I would recommend using chicken rather than beef for your soup. Beef CAN be used but it is very rich and tastes very strongly. This can make it take longer to get them to accept it (taste), and for ferrets with sensitive tummies, esp not used to raw yet, some rich meats can cause some upset. Beef is also one of the most common sensitivities we see - I encounter more beef intolerances than chicken. If he eats too fast, or plays too hard after a big meal that can cause vomiting - but if he continues to vomit after beef soup I would say he very likely has a sensitivity to it and you should avoid beef. Later on when he is switched to chunks you could try it again to test whether it was a true intolerance or not, but I would avoid it for a while first to let his system calm down.
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Post by katt on Feb 17, 2017 18:32:52 GMT -5
I missed when you said you got Des, but it takes 6-8 weeks to START seeing improvements. Also just an FYI, he will need a new implant every 6 months; every 12mo is for prevention only and does not work well for treatment as it allow breakthrough symptoms (which are a sign that the disease is being allowed to progress unchecked).
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Post by boogerybooger on Feb 17, 2017 18:34:37 GMT -5
Great info! thank you!!!
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Post by boogerybooger on Feb 17, 2017 18:49:28 GMT -5
I missed when you said you got Des, but it takes 6-8 weeks to START seeing improvements. Also just an FYI, he will need a new implant every 6 months; every 12mo is for prevention only and does not work well for treatment as it allow breakthrough symptoms (which are a sign that the disease is being allowed to progress unchecked). He recently got it- DES January 30th. Guess we haven't gotten to the improvement stage. The Vet said getting it every year was overkill based on the studies, but thought 9 months would be ok. We will have to cross that communication bridge later most likely. For a solid 9 months or longer, he got oral melatonin (before I learned he needed more.) thanks for this info. Thanks for your help!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 19:33:14 GMT -5
Okay so for portioning take a peak at this - holisticferretforum.com/natural-diet/raw-diet-the-meat-of-the-site/basic-frankenprey-menu/ it's an empty basic balanced frankenprey menu, all you have to do is plug in your different proteins! As for the starred muscle/bone meals it depends on the poops, too dry switch one to muscle, too wet switch one to bone etc. just keep adjusting til the poops look good it really helps because you don't have to deal with percentages really, just plug in your meals and you're balanced! This is what mine looks like each week I check my freezer and count how many meals of what I have preportioned out, check it against my menu and head off to the store to buy the meats I'm missing. Then I get home and weight them out and cut them up, for my three girls it's 5 oz per meal. Bag up the 5 oz meals label and toss into a big gallon bag that's labeled as well to keep everything together. My organs I keep separate and prep as needed because I'm too lazy to do those with my muscle and bone meals lol. As for tips for starting chunks, what size have you tried so far? I would start with bitty little pieces mixed in your soup so it just looks like it didn't get blended down very well, about the size of half your pinky nail if he hasn't taken to them as of yet. Be sure to offer from your hand, on your finger and pop it into his mouth repeatedly so he realizes what he's suppose to do with it. I would suggest starting with a non offensive meat like chicken thigh for your first chunks
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 19:45:51 GMT -5
If my description didn't make sense here's a picture of how everything is put away into my freezer, portioned bags of each meal on my menu are put into big gallon bags to keep them together ( I label each portioned muscle meat and keep them all together in one muscle. Meat bag, and count the each individually right before I go shopping to see what I need to stock up on that week. I check the menu say today, for Friday evening and see I need turkey neck, grab the gallon bag and pull out the portioned turkey necks! I use to label each bag by which day and time I was going to feed it, this turned out to be easier for me in the long run. Okay now I think I'm just repeating myself a bunch.
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Post by boogerybooger on Feb 17, 2017 22:29:25 GMT -5
This is AWESOME!!!! Thank you for all the detail!!! Your list on the fridge is great! Also the visual chart on the frankenprey page speaks to me. The doc. I looked at didn't have a chart. Thanks! Will your fuzzies eat chicken gizzards? and are chicken necks considered bone-in? I accidentally bought two packs of necks when I thought I had only one I don't think he's had any yet. I'm thinking turkey necks may be too big for him. Where did you get pork brains? I would like to find some pancreas too! And I learned of pinky mice at the pet store. What type of meat would that be? (if I can bring myself to get any- I love rodents too!) they are whole tiny mice. First though we have to tackle and conquer the muscle chunks Thank you, tessvictoria! I LOVE all the details!
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