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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 14:59:27 GMT -5
Random musing over this year's parings and the future ....
For the first 2 generations that I have of the line I really am happy with, I only have jills.
Mischief is the grandmother of Eli ... and she is 3 this coming year. She has only had one litter to date and I do plan to breed her one more time ... will my effort be better spent breeding her to an unrelated hob OR putting her to her grandson this time? Otherwise, as I don't know much further back from Mischief ... she could go to an unrelated this year and a son of Eli or Ash could go back to Petal or Nutmeg (both Mischief daughters, mothers to Eli and Ash respectively) ... OR completely leave out any inbreeding until I have several generations on from Eli and Ash (so 3+ years or so from now). The only thing is, there are some things about Eli and Ash that I do like, that are different to Mischief, but I don't want to lose her in there by breeding too far along with outcrosses....
Just a little musing and wondering what more experienced breeders think?
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Post by Heather on Jan 12, 2016 15:25:03 GMT -5
You don't know anything further back on Mischief? I would be tempted to breed to the grandson. It should pull what you like of that line out and make it more solid and any little nasties that are hidden should come out with this breeding...theoretically. If you outcross you will never know where the bad stuff is coming from. Just my thought on it for what it's worth ciao
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 16:08:29 GMT -5
Thanks Heather for replying.
Unfortunately, I don't know anything further back on Mischief which is a real shame, and even with asking the previous owner, it seems difficult to find anything out much. That was what I thought, hopefully it will show up any nasties before they get too far along, and fingers crossed it won't show up problems and will just give me the type of ferret I am aiming for to then go on with.
I am swaying towards putting Mischief to Eli or Ash then this coming year ...
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Post by Heather on Jan 12, 2016 20:14:13 GMT -5
My little Welsh jill has no background either. I've been told some ideas, so her daughters are going to be bred to a poley of no relation (unless the sire was a bigger vagabond that was thought lol) . Someone from that litter will then be bred back to their grandfather. I will then see what nasties pop up. We all have to start somewhere and documentation is sometimes sketchy if non-existent. My 'bino lines have much better documentation ciao
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2016 2:42:33 GMT -5
It is a bit tricky when you start with an unknown ... good to know you have similar plans though to find out what's there. I do keep pretty detailed records of everyone though, so however many generations on my ferrets will have a detailed background And then in future, I would outcross any of those inbred kits, and then all being well settle into a mixture of outcrossing and linebreeding about 4/5 generations apart?
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Post by Heather on Jan 13, 2016 14:17:23 GMT -5
The problems is some of the older breeders, kept their records in their heads. It works great when you're younger and you don't have the habit of using the same names lol but as time wears on the records of who's been to who becomes an issue. The problem also comes out when the breeders select what information you need to know and what you don't or forget (selectively or otherwise). I trust the breeder I get my stock from and I trust her to give me the correct information but....sometimes the next level isn't as forthcoming. The fact that I'm using hybrids, makes record keeping even more difficult. Hence having "gaps" in the information in a breeding program. The hob I'm hoping to get is the highest level of poley I can get (without being a polecat) and I will see where things lead me from there. I also only breed purely for myself, so only breed occasionally. There have been some issues that have been seen in some of the hybrid lines and I'm interested to see if it's related to the particular line or if it's related to the polecat/ferret mix. I would have to see what I get and what issues crop up. ciao
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2016 14:50:58 GMT -5
Heather you're dead right there. Many of the older breeders do keep it all in their heads, and I can't even do that now at 27 so I won't be tempted to risk that. I use a really handy bit of software - Kintraks Animal Breeder, to keep all of my records ... and on top of that, in case of a technology disaster, I keep it all in a book too. I think selecting information to give is a big problem as well. If somebody tells me their lines don't have any problems and every ferret lives to over 10 years, I know they're lying. I am always open and honest and I don't imagine anything I breed will ever be perfect, and I would never guarantee a life expectancy. It sounds like an interesting endeavour - and it will be fascinating to see how you get on. Just wondering, out of curiosity, what issues are a problem in hybrid ferrets? I have heard lots of blurb about them having hybrid vigour and being healthy for this reason, but never looked into them far enough to know of any issues. At the moment, I am wondering if mini ferrets always have small litters - Mischief's first litter was 9, 7 surviving, but then her daughters had 5 and 3 ... I wonder is due to subfertile hobs or jills? And does it go along with the size or is it a line issue? Breeding Mischief to her grandson will hopefully give some answers ... if it's a subfertile hob then her grandson, having a possibly subfertile dad, may well only fertilise a limited number of ova and Mischief may have a small litter.
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Post by lorelei0922 on Feb 18, 2016 17:57:00 GMT -5
Hi!
I'm the one they are talking about with the micros...
Cammy.. My Micro jill. She weighed a total of 11 ounces at her full pregnancy weight and less than 8 ounces normal weight.
Her first pregnancy was planned and she was with a hob who was also a micro. He was quite small himself, not much bigger than she was.
At day 43 we had a check up because we experienced early labor signs but no pushing and she was getting tired. The vet gave her a steroid injection to help things along as Oxy would be dangerous if she were not already dialiting. We watched her over night hover in and out of labor.. never really becoming established.
The next morning she underwent a C-Section. The vet had over a dozen people in there as NO ONE had seen a C Section on such a small animal before!!
6 live kits were successfully delivered and Cammy did well herself. I brought the 6 kits and Cammy home and we cared for her round the clock trying to get the kits to nurse. The kits were very sleepy as was Cammy and while my jills are always very laid back and co operative with me helping them with the nesting duties... it was still impossible to save 4 of the kits. By the next morning only 2 remained.
These two managed to latch on and were raised successfully, though one had a head tilt, probably blind, and some neurological difficulties. She was a happy little jill though and was homed with her sister as a seeing eye ferret. Her owners would keep her room pretty much the same and if something was different her sister led the way through the first few times.
The next year Cammy was due to have one of the first Implants when they started recommending them. I did not want to breed her again as she failed to go into labor successfully. She was put into her own section of a shed to wait for her Implant to arrive at the vets.... Cammy had other ideas and snuck into the bottom level with a normal sized hob.
Not much was known about how a pregnancy my be affected by the implant, so the vet said it was best to wait and see and hope she just had a hard time the first time ( this does happen in dogs sooo... it was worth a shot)
Again she failed to labor, this time at all.. and a scheduled c section delivered 3 kits... two still born and one died within minutes of delivery. Cammy was spayed during this c section. She went on to be a great little friend and helper to other moms i've had but it was more than enough to tell me how risky this is on the jill.
Now i have had another C section... and this is where you need to consider the dangers...
Cieara in 2013. This was her second litter. She was a normal sized jill. She delivered 12 the previous year with absolutely no problems at all. Happily raised them all as well as helping her litter mate raise her 9 ! We had no reason to expect any problems at all.
Unfortunately after a long long labor Cieara could just NOT move the kits. 3 AM found us at the Emergency Vet, The on call vet and I helped her deliver a very LARGE and very deformed kit ( google water puppy syndrome )
At this point she was exhausted and despite a dose of Oxy she just could not continue to deliver. My own vet was called in to perform an emergency C Section. They delivered 13 more kits, 3 were still born and 10 were alive and doing ok....
We brought the 10 kits and an exhausted Cieara home. She was unable and unwilling to care for the kits so they were given to her litter mate Sorcha, while we comforted and helped Cieara to and from the litter box and bed. 5 hours later she gave up.. between one breath and another she was gone... just gone!
Her litter mate sensed her loss i believe because at that point she gave up on all 17 kits... her 7 and Cieara's 10 and they slowly faded out over 24 hours. She just wasn't pushing the sleepy kits and her own to nurse and despite round the clock care and hand feeding we watched as each and every little life left us... There is nothing more devastating, than knowing that YOU put these animals together... YOU mated them... YOU created these new little lives and YOU lost them.
Think twice... think 3-4-5 times more... If you cant honestly say YOU can move on from that... this isn't the game for you.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 9:25:57 GMT -5
Oh gosh, what a terrible sad story. Thanks for all that info. It was so interesting but sad to read. From USA
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Post by Heather on Feb 19, 2016 9:36:19 GMT -5
Breeding more often than not is sad. What the public sees, cute little meepers and sweet bouncing kits are the successes. Many times it's failure and heartbreak. It's the absolute nightmarish scene, that makes me ill, knowing what I know....knowing the failure rates and then seeing the big farms. The hundreds, no thousands of kits they ship with little care of failure....how many die ciao
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Post by Sherry on Feb 19, 2016 11:45:12 GMT -5
Thanks for coming back on lorelei0922 I remember when all that happened. So tragic
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2016 13:57:55 GMT -5
Thank you for sharing Lorelei. I appreciate it must have been hard for you to recount all that happened. So sad.
I have had one horribly deformed litter which was delivered by emergency c-section, and the jill and all relateds are neutered because I don't want to take the risk. Unfortunately, although the kits came out alive, they were immediately euthanased as it wouldn't have been fair to try to keep them going.
I (luckily) have not had many other big problems with litters, and tend to always mate jills to smaller hobs with uniformly small ancestry for at least 2-3 generations. I am fully aware of everything that can go wrong and fully prepared for anything that may come.
If I was to find that birthing problems/primary uterine inertia/oversized kits/deformities were common in my ferrets I would stop breeding them. That would be that. And the smallest jills always stay or only go to trusted homes where they will not be put at risk.
I aim for ferrets that are fully able to thrive (and reproduce) without veterinary intervention. As a vet, I unfortunately commonly see and try to alleviate the effects of breeding animals for the wrong reasons, and making poor breeding choices for all the wrong reasons. I have no intention to do this myself. It's just not right and not fair.
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