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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2015 15:21:52 GMT -5
I have only been breeding for a few years and as such am not very familiar with the lines I have yet.
I have 3 generations from one particular line, grandmother, mothers and sons. In the other ferrets I own, I do not now have more than those ferrets, possibly siblings and knowledge of their parents as given by the people selling them as kits.
I did have 2 generations from another line, but as the mother has recently developed malignant lymphoma, her son and daughter have been neutered, so this particular line is a dead end.
I would like to really know the line I am aiming for, and I know that in order to do this, I need to be doing some linebreeding.
I did originally plan to breed back every 5 generations, but this necessitates breeding jills and hobs in their first year, which I have done and may do, but don't want to have to do ... most ferrets I would much rather leave until they are older.
What do most people do regarding linebreeding?
I want to flag up a problem if there is one, and I also want to have a line with predictable traits which I really won't achieve by continually outcrossing. I suspect that a proportion of the ferrets I have to start with have close inbreeding in their lineage, as many breeders aim for a quick fixing of small size through close inbreeding, but of course, nobody will admit to this.
I have seen the good, bad and the ugly with inbreeding having worked closely with a good friend of mine breeding rats for many years and seen that inbreeding has eventually obliterated some of her lines when done too closely too often.
I would love to hear what the consensus is on this sort of practice in ferrets, and how closely people will linebreed to ensure their line stays 'their line'.
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Post by crazylady on Dec 31, 2015 14:26:58 GMT -5
Hi I never put sibling to sibling that can cause too many problems it may not show up in the first litter but it can in following litters if they are bred again I select a pair that I wish to continue breeding from kits are born ( I keep all my ferrets only odd ones ever leave me ) so I have a good choice of follow on breeding I would then breed say a jill to an outcross ferret ( it may have a particular thing lacking in the line say large skull for instance a kit from that line then goes back to its grandfather resulting in retaining the original line but and this is the big But you must know the background of what you begin with at least five generations back to prevent problems and you must always record how you are breeding and what results so as not to forget hope this helps take care bye for now
Bev
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2016 7:05:33 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply Bev.
That's quite interesting .... so really I need to be following my outcrossing on for a few more generations yet, and then breeding back along the line that has the traits I want to keep in. I keep records of everything - from a hairball cough to any drop in weight, to temperament issues and am very picky about where kits go to ensure that I keep in touch and know about anything, good or bad, that may come up in any kits.
I can see Syd/Mischief have the traits so far that I really want to keep, good weights, (so far) good health, easy temperaments, and a nice size. But will have to see how they go in the next few years before I breed back along those lines.
So, is the closest you breed grandparent/grandchild? Or would you ever consider cousin breedings?
And is the outcross a selectively used tool to add something and the line breeding a habitual thing? Or vice versa?
I am always very anxious about any inbreeding, but understand its value. I just also understand how badly it can go wrong too.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2016 7:19:52 GMT -5
@vickiann crazylady knows her stuff. We all respect her knowledge and she has been doing this for a long time. Other breeders on the forum are nancyl Heather and Pam VanOverloop of PVO ferrets, they will all happily help you and most likely offer the same advice as Crazylady. My best to you and the Moms and Babies. |
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Post by crazylady on Jan 1, 2016 11:58:04 GMT -5
Hi sometimes I go to great grandparent instead of grandparent I wont go to cousins what you have to remember is they get 50% from mum and 50% from dad so you work along the lines of looking for a decent out cross that has no connection to what you are breeding from so you are putting in 50% say from your new outcross the kits from that mating now are carrying a different genetic make up and with each breeding you dilute the line then come back in replenishing the good points you want from your original line this way you prevent severe defects as long as you know you lines are sound I breed whoppers compared to yours lol even though I hunt I use the traditional sized ferret everything from bulldogs to greyhounds to whippets the micros where originally the result of multiple inbreeding's and used for working around tree roots and hedgerows it was a case of a working man had a good working small jill his friend may of had a small hob who worked well a mating took place each took there pick but only used the same hob over and over on each litter that was produced down the line so it was always either father to daughter or sister to brother resulting in the micros I have a couple of rescued micros ( thanks to my vet lol) I would never breed from them as I know problems are normal when they deliver and a lot result in c sections or the jills refusing to nurse I will stick to my big poleys and albinos lol unfortunately over the years I have witnessed the loss of the big head on hobs ( I travel all over the world as a ferret judge ) I am determined to hang on to it in my part of England lol hope this helps take care bye for now
Bev
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Post by Sherry on Jan 1, 2016 12:05:33 GMT -5
lorelei0922 has also had issues with breeding from a micro as well. I believe her jill had to have a c-section.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2016 12:19:54 GMT -5
I feel a little more comfortable with great grandparents I think, and it makes sense to put new in and then breed back in a controlled way to keep the original line. I think I will be waiting a number of years before I do any of this as I need to feel happy with the line I'm breeding back to before I do any line breeding and that will just need passing of time and to observe good health and temperament.
I have to say, I like a rounder head on a hob, some of the small jills I have this year have short noses which is unusual. They are very pretty but they're not typical jill heads.
I know the majority of little ones come from a beginning of inbreeding, but as I have attained little ones from all over the UK, I hope in as much as I can to be bringing together lines from different individual small lines. So far, in the line I have several generations of, I have not had any trouble with birthing and only one instance of a jill not nursing which with hindsight was my fault for fussing and interfering, second time round she did a very good job and had plenty of milk.
I have had one caesarian, due to a litter of neural tube defects, I am not sure why this happened, but that jill and all relateds are now neutered as a consequence. I am sure that for every 5 ferrets I have, there will be 2 or 3 that will not be able to be bred for whatever reason, and I am being fairly ruthless (compared to most people breeding these ferrets) and in this way hope to weed out the problems. I have a small jill who is somewhere over 9/10 years old, and has never had a health complaint so I know it is possible to have ferrets at this size that are healthy and longlived, there's just been so many people trying to breed them as a novelty for cash with no thought to health/longevity that it's going to be a real job and take time to weed out the problems!
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Post by Heather on Jan 1, 2016 15:28:35 GMT -5
I will be interested in watching your process and progress. I know that Heather tried this route a few years ago and almost lost her jill. She had a c-section on both pregnancies. Her problem was kits that were too big for the jill to birth naturally. Usually, a big hob kit who managed to get stuck. I know Marshals Farms went this way about a decade ago and have stopped producing these kits. Now the reason?? I've no idea and they're not talking (of course). Their original theory was that these kits looked like kits longer and this was better for stores selling the kits. For whatever reason they abandoned these lines and brought in a huge purchase from Scandinavia about 5 yrs ago. Their resulting ferrets are larger and heavier boned ferrets.
I'm curious to see what type of results you get. Theoretically, even leaving out line breeding issues, how you get get a consistent size that doesn't overtax your jill is going to be the most difficult problem. Genetically, speaking a ferret has an average size of "x" for jills and "Y" for hobs, even when breeding within normal sizes you get variations on the outside of that norm. Your lines are purposely bred on the lower end of those parameters but you're still going to get kits born on the extreme of your parameters. The chances of a large or oversized kit is still a large possibility. Like I said I'm interested to see where it goes and what you're results are. The bonus you have is that being a vet, if trouble arises you don't have to wake up your vet to do surgery :thumbsup:
I hope this didn't sound negative, it wasn't meant to be. As anyone will tell you (who knows me) I'm immensely curious and I ask a lot of questions and love science and genetics. I think I just about drove many of the breeders on here insane when I first became interested in this.
ciao
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2016 15:54:41 GMT -5
It's interesting that this has been tried and failed and I wonder if I will do any better. If I am at any point endangering my own ferrets or bringing ferrets into the world that will have a short and unhealthy life, that will be that. The end of breeding them for me.
I wonder if breeding tiny jills that are not from a pure/clean line to hobs that are also of questionable lineage brings this about. I have always been very careful to match the hob to the jill, taking into account the grandparents (ie. if a small hob has a parent that is bigger he will not go over a small jill, only bigger ones because of the risk of big kits, conversely if a small jill comes from a breeding of bigger ferrets, they will not be bred for the same risk).
I bred a hob this year that was a 'short wheelbase' hob, with a chunky build but only 700-800g and made the decision to put him over one of my bigger jills. It was a justified choice, she gave birth to a whopper of a kit. She didn't have any trouble and had him unassisted, but if this had been one of my smaller jills, it could have been a disaster.
Similarly I bred my smallest jill to a very fine, (almost built like stoat) small hob, and she had no trouble, gave birth unassisted and all kits grew well and were fat and healthy.
I tend to find, in most instances, unless the litter is small, that the growth is faster in kits that will be standard, they are all born very similar sizes, it is the growth rate after that is different. I will see if I can put up some weight tables to demonstrate, and I don't know if this is true of all lines of small ferrets or just something in some?
It is a big problem when homing any kits, the smallest jills stay full stop, or go to people I know well and trust won't endanger them. I couldn't risk people possibly killing them by putting them to a bigger hob, some people seem to have no sense when it comes to ferrets.... nobody would think it was sensible to put a labrador over a little jack russell terrier, but many ferret owners absolutely think nothing of trying to put a standard hob over a little jill.
Just for interest ... if you look at the latest pics I put up ... Mischief had a litter of 9 (raised 7), and Petal had a litter of 5 and raised them. Both unassisted and both full of milk and surprisingly not only maintaining but gaining weight through lactation! Nutmeg is a little bigger than her Mum and sister, but she had a litter of 3 (one standard and 2 little) and gave birth unassisted and raised them all.
As I say, the only caesar I have had to have so far has been due to neural tube defects in the pups, and tragically we had to PTS every kit as we got it out of her. So far, maybe I have been lucky or maybe it is something in the genetics of the jills meaning that they limit the size of kits in utero? Which could be right, as the only jill bred this year that wasn't Mischief line had that big kit!
Although, a good friend is working alongside me in trying to achieve the same, and has the same values and goals. He bred quite a few litters this last year and no caesars or assisted births .... but again, he is very picky about his hobs ...
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Post by Heather on Jan 1, 2016 16:38:36 GMT -5
I do know with Heather's mini litter that she was aware of the lines up to the grandparents (I believe). They were all tiny. Her first litter was mini/micro to mini. It was a c-section because of a robust hob, I think but if she's on she might actually join this discussion and clear that up. The second was an accidental breeding to a smaller but normal hob. The wee girlie was spayed at that time. She was going to be spayed anyway, it just didn't quite work out. I believe the vet believed that she could possibly birth a small litter so the decision was to leave her with her litter. It didn't go well  ciao |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2016 16:51:01 GMT -5
I do know with Heather's mini litter that she was aware of the lines up to the grandparents (I believe). They were all tiny. Her first litter was mini/micro to mini. It was a c-section because of a robust hob, I think but if she's on she might actually join this discussion and clear that up. The second was an accidental breeding to a smaller but normal hob. The wee girlie was spayed at that time. She was going to be spayed anyway, it just didn't quite work out. I believe the vet believed that she could possibly birth a small litter so the decision was to leave her with her litter. It didn't go well ciao It would be interesting to know. I wonder if hers were much smaller than mine? I have heard of some people with adult ferrets under 200g! I have some people contact me and say my ferrets are quite big! My jills are weight range 300g-500g, and my hobs are 600-700g and I wouldn't want to breed certainly any jills at under 300g. Dolly is currently my smallest jill at 250g but she is still only 6 months old. If she doesn't reach over 300g she will not be bred, and even then ..... she is a good bit smaller than Petal and unless she gets up to that size I would worry about the risk to her. I find these little ones do a lot of growing up to 2 years old and some past that so there's time. If not she'll just be a bumbly little pet! Poor Heather though, that's tragic but thank god she still had her jill at the end of it! How worrying that must have been :-( |
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Post by Heather on Jan 1, 2016 17:12:58 GMT -5
My biggest fear...to loose a jill because of breeding her. I love my jills. It hurts tremendously to loose kits but to loose a jill, that might make me never breed again.
ciao
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2016 17:19:43 GMT -5
My biggest fear...to loose a jill because of breeding her. I love my jills. It hurts tremendously to loose kits but to loose a jill, that might make me never breed again. ciao Mine too. That was the main reason for the litter lost through mismothering - I worried myself stupid about whether she might manage to give birth on her own and so I didn't give her the space she needed. She had her kits fine but because I'd disturbed her she didn't settle down to motherhood. I think my anxiety made her anxious and she wouldn't settle. Stupid stupid thing I did there. Lesson now learnt. |
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Post by crazylady on Jan 3, 2016 12:30:40 GMT -5
Some jills are just not ment to be mothers just as some good mothers can sense when one of her kits is unwell and its not viable to continue nursing it she will push it to one side and concentrate on the healthy its amazing what a jill can give birth too ( talking about normal sized jills ) my girl ebony ( whippet ) was bred to a butch big boned bulldog Pantha and produced 3 huge greyhound hob kits who weighed 5 1/2 pound summer 7 1/2 pound winter when grown was I expecting them nope she was four days past her due date had no tummy nothing could be felt yet she surprised me one april fools day to the sound of squeaker's and she had a look on her face that said now who thinks they know it all!!! lol for the first three weeks I leave mom to her job I pretend I can hear nothing I feed clean corners pick up mom as I normally do have a feel over her check teats to ensure everything's working then let her get on with her work I handle and do a heath check on all of my ferrets daily pregnant or not so it becomes part of a routine they are used too and does not freak them out take care bye for now
Bev
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2016 15:30:42 GMT -5
I have to agree to a certain extent. But Petal did go on to have another litter which she raised brilliantly. She was a fabulous Mum second time round, I couldn't fault her. But I didn't poke in the nest which was the big difference. The silly jill came running out of her nest halfway through labour (slightly deflated with discharge and squeaking from nest but still kits inside her) for her tea one evening. I quietly checked her, gave her tea and left her alone. I did just creep in and listen for squeaks every now and then but didn't disturb her. I always find you can tell the difference between distressed squeaks and contented little squeakles from well mothered babies.
It does amaze me what jills can do. My little Summer had a super size hob kit, a litter of only one, and all on her own too. She weighs 600g at her fattest winter weight, but he weighed in at 1.5kg at 5 months old.
I do always feel kits are pushed out for a reason and I have to admit, I don't interfere in the first few weeks. Mum will make sure whoever is supposed to live will live IME.
I have had a few falseys fool me! But if I'm unsure the jills always stay in their birthing suite until a week after the due date, just to be sure. I do find mine come early rather than late but who knows what may happen in the future.
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