Raw Feeding Questions

[Deleted]

There are so many posts on this board that I'm sure I could scrounge up most of the info to the questions I have but I don't have that much time to read through all of them.....sorry!

I have 3 ferrets.  One is male, around the age of 7 with insulinoma, one is female, 5 years old with adrenal disease, and one that will be 4 in April (she's healthy so far....yaaay!).

Prior to the ferrets I had cats that I fed raw so I'm not totally unfamiliar with raw feeding.  I know there's differences in metabolism and behavior between a cat and a ferret though so I have a few specific questions.

1) What is the typical method of transition from kibble to raw?  With the cats, I had to mix the two while slowly adding a larger portion of the raw and a smaller portion of the kibble.  I was talking to another ferret owner at the vet's office though who said that she just took the kibble away and left the raw out with the assumption that the ferret would eat once it got hungry enough.  That sounds like a dangerous tactic to me as what they eat is a learned behavior and if they see the raw as dangerous then they could potentially starve themselves.....

2) How often do they need to eat to keep their BG up and how much is suggested?  What I've read says they should eat every 4 hours but I know most of what I read is bogus.  With the cats for example, conventional wisdom says to leave food out for them all day long but I know that's not necessary and is even detrimental to their health.

3) How long do you leave the raw food out before it becomes unsafe for them to eat?  Human standards is 4 hours for meat.  I know a ferret's stomach acid is much stronger than a humans though so what's typical, especially while transitioning?

4) I remember from trying to find a food for the cats that it was difficult to find raw food for strictly carnivorous cats without a bunch of vegetables and such in it.  I settled on an online company called Feline's Pride.  Is anyone familiar with this brand?  I assume that if it was suitable for the cats it should also be suitable for the ferrets but you know what they say about assuming.....

Any words of wisdom are appreciated!

[Deleted]

question 1

If they will not eat a piece of raw meat, then we make this, It may have to be finger fed and they will run off when you dab their mouths with it (well most will)

Raw soup recipe
8 oz raw skinless/boneless chicken
1 oz raw chicken liver (about half a liver)
1 oz raw chicken heart (about 2 hearts)
½ tsp. eggshell powder

Put all blender or bullet and  then freeze into little cubes in ice tray, then store in baggies in freezer.

Later u offer slivers of meat, and then chunks, and boney pieces of meat.
Some people leave kibble out at night for ferrets to eat---I did, until they have transitioned over to the raw soupie completely.  Some people sprinkle kibble powder on soupie-----
I  had to scruff my last one and feed----the most stubborn ferret I have owned.
 


Read more: holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/16051/abbeytheferret6s-switching-thread-abbylee22#ixzz3v51t0Ltn

[Deleted]

Welcome to the forum, njcrouth!
The forum is quite big and I agree with it having so many posts. I remember getting lost when I joined up. haha! It can be overwhelming at times too. I'll be more than happy to answer your questions.
Transitioning to a raw diet might take some time so you will need persistence, perseverance and patience most of all.

First of all, if you require mentor assistance when it comes to transitioning to raw, 
You can sign up for a mentor here.
holisticferret60.proboards.com/board/57/mentoring-program

Since there is a waiting list, feel free to create your own unofficial thread below and mentors can jump in and guide you.
holisticferret60.proboards.com/board/66/diet-transitions


1) What is the typical method of transition from kibble to raw? With the cats, I had to mix the two while slowly adding a larger portion of the raw and a smaller portion of the kibble. I was talking to another ferret owner at the vet's office though who said that she just took the kibble away and left the raw out with the assumption that the ferret would eat once it got hungry enough. That sounds like a dangerous tactic to me as what they eat is a learned behavior and if they see the raw as dangerous then they could potentially starve themselves.....

There is many ways to transition from kibble to raw. 
Usually we don't recommend mixing kibble with raw as it allows the bacteria on the surface of the kibble to multiply. Force feeding is definitely a no go, especially for those with sick ferrets. Both Cats and Ferrets can get hepatic lipidosis, this is happened mostly due to enforced fasting and can be deadly if untreated.  You can try giving raw straight away, it's always worth a shot, just make sure that they have food within the 3-4 hour time frame. They don't intentionally starve themselves either. Since ferrets imprint on their food, they only recognise the kibble as edible source of food and when it comes to meat they don't know what to do with it most of the time lol. It would also be a good idea to remove the kibble a couple of hours beforehand before attempting the raw on its own.  You can try it on a plate first and if that fails, attempt hand feeding. If the meat on its own doesn't work out, go to the soup method. If the meat on its own does work then you're lucky and can skip the soup stage. 

The most common way would be to use the HFF soupie method, then gradually introduce small slivers. Over time you increase the sliver size into chunks and then go on to introducing bone in meats.

8oz raw chicken thigh (raw)
1 oz raw chicken liver (or other raw liver)
1-2 raw chicken hearts (approximately 1 oz) or 1 oz other raw heart
½ to ¾ tsp bone meal or crushed egg shell
(air-dry egg shell then crush with mortar and pestle or in a clean coffee grinder)

Weigh out your meat and organs.
Add bone meal or egg shell.
Add water until about the consistency of thick cream (no thinner!!). Blending up in a food processor is the easiest.


Basic rule is to start small (Small amount and small sizes) and work your way up. The smaller, the less intimidating in my opinion.
Here is Intro Into Raw, It has all the information in one place so its easier to find. docs.google.com/document/d/1PxpRVp1J_YAd6lDHI1224J1AletYzpp9tdJ7k8PpR2Q/edit 

2) How often do they need to eat to keep their BG up and how much is suggested? What I've read says they should eat every 4 hours but I know most of what I read is bogus. With the cats for example, conventional wisdom says to leave food out for them all day long but I know that's not necessary and is even detrimental to their health.
I'm not going to give an answer for anything Insulinoma related since I'm not 100% confident with how much I've learnt at this stage, however I'm sure another mentor will come along and help you out with that.

Ferrets in general have a 3-4 hour digestion time, so they tend to eat every 3-4 hours (give or take). Some ferrets will eat twice a day, Breakfast and Dinner, and some will graze throughout the day. Raw feeders tend to leave an amount of food based on how much their ferret eats per meal. Usually its left out most of the day and gone by next meal time, so we give meals in the morning and at night, and regardless of when a ferret feels like eating there is always something there for them.  


3) How long do you leave the raw food out before it becomes unsafe for them to eat? Human standards is 4 hours for meat. I know a ferret's stomach acid is much stronger than a humans though so what's typical, especially while transitioning?

Ferret's are known to handle a great bacteria load, they even eat their version of jerky (a.k.a food they've stashed for a week lol) However, we still change food for safety and freshness reasons. Ferrets are intelligent, so they tend to not touch anything gone bad.I think thats one of their best natural instincts.

Here's the rough time food can be left out. Keep in mind that food should be replaced more frequently during hot weather. Eggs also are recommended to be removed after about half an hour to an hour. They tend to dry up and ferrets won't touch the dried up egg usually. 
Soups - 6-8 hours,
Grinds - 8-12 hours,
Chunks - 10-24 hours depending on the size (larger chunks last longer),
Bone-in meats - 12-24 hours, again depending on the size,
Whole prey - up to 48 hours.

4) I remember from trying to find a food for the cats that it was difficult to find raw food for strictly carnivorous cats without a bunch of vegetables and such in it. I settled on an online company called Feline's Pride. Is anyone familiar with this brand? I assume that if it was suitable for the cats it should also be suitable for the ferrets but you know what they say about assuming.....

We don't tend to use commercial pet food products when it comes to frankenprey, and that includes pet foods specifically made for carnivorous animals. I personally don't trust anything I haven't made myself because those meats are not the best grade.  Human grade is best recommended as it's high standard and has less of a chance of being contaminated compared to that of pet food.
Cats are obligate carnivores just like ferrets, and shouldn't be fed any plant matter but not everyone is aware of that so when it comes to pet food companies, they put that stuff in the pet food to please the pet owner. Because hey, Its veggies, and the its in the pet food, so it must be good for them right? lol no. Also both cats and ferrets, though both being obligate carnivores, they do each have different dietary needs. 

Here's a snippet from Basic Frankenprey Menu

Edible bone in meat: is just that, meat with bone included. It is NOT bones with just a bit of meat on them (ie: most of the meat removed). If you fed bones like this you will throw the balance of the menu off. See below for acceptable bone in meats

chicken: any / all, quail: any / all, rabbit: any / all, turkey: necks, ribs, and wing tips, duck: neck, ribs, and wing tips. pork: button bones, rib ends, cornish game hen: any / all.

Any commercial frozen raw with 10% to 15% ground bone. Any freeze dried raw with 10%-15% ground bone.

*These two meals can be either bone-in or muscle meat depending on the consistency of your ferret’s poop. Dry, chalky and firm you should reduce the bone-in meals and feed muscle meat instead. Loose, unformed and overly liquid, increase the bone-in meals. Do not change the menu beyond these two optional meals or you could affect the nutritional balance of the diet.

Muscle meat: any heart meat. Chicken (including gizzard), turkey, duck, lamb, goat, beef, Cornish Game Hen (counts as chicken), venison, elk, basically any meat (unaltered such as smoked, pickled or injected with salt) without bone.

*heart is considered a muscle meat but is ABSOLUTELY necessary as it is their primary source of taurine. Lack of taurine in their diet can lead to eyesight problems and other issues.

Organ meat: Liver, kidney, thymus, pancreas, reproductive organs, lung, brain, basically any part of the body that secretes.

Fat is an important part of a carnivore's diet as this is where they get their energy. It works for them in the same way carbs do for humans. Make sure to pick fattier cuts over leaner cuts when buying your meat (thigh vs. breast, shoulder vs. tenderloin, etc)

Variety For optimal health a minimum (more is preferable) of 3 different proteins need to be in the diet. At least one of the minimum 3 proteins needs to be something other than: chicken, rabbit, cornish game hen or fish. This is to ensure enough Vit B, iron and a good base of taurine in the diet (most taurine comes from the heart in the diet however).

[Sherry]

As Machan has answered almost everything fully, I will just touch on feeding an insulinomic ferret raw. Switching will be a bit more difficult with them as until fully on raw they DO need to eat every 4 hours or so. Once fully one raw, their bg is balanced so much better that you can stretch it a lot further apart, and most will do excellent with being fed a tbsp or so of raw soup with their meds, and grazing on their chunks the rest of the day.

[Deleted]

So... once you have the frozen soup cubes, what do you do with them? do you thaw them out in the microwave? I shouldn't mix it with kibble, so should I just give it to her in a bowl? I already know she won't eat it, so I just rub some on her gums and she runs away? Then let her eat her kibble? Wouldn't rubbing raw meat on her gums have the same effect? This is what I've been doing and all I feel I am accomplishing is making her think I punishing her. I'm planning on joining the mentor program, but don't have enough posts yet. Again, any advice would be wonderful.

[Deleted]

Every ferret is different. I got creative when switching to raw. 1 tsp of raw soup mixed with 1 tsp of cooked chicken I blended in my food processor. I started putting in less of the cooked chicken until they were eating raw by itself.

[Deleted]

Sorry can't help you with the ice cube question. Everyone in my house is raw fed so I go through it so quickly that I don't need to freeze portions.

[Deleted]

Machan! Thanks for your detailed answer. I have a few follow up questions.

The link in your post for the Intro Into Raw doesn't work...could you try again please?

With the egg shells, do I have to boil them first?

I've never bought bone meal before. Is this what I'm going for? www.amazon.com/KAL-Bone-Meal-Powder-Ounce/dp/B000HNHQPC

For edible bone, when you say quail: all, and chicken: all, that means any part of those animals?

I'm trying to think through what I am able to get from my local farm where I buy all my meats, and I know any cut of chicken is available, some turkey products, and lamb and cornish hens but those two aren't always there. Is there a suggested online source for clean but also budget friendly meats like rabbit or quail?

So if I'm doing the soup, and I have a ferret that refuses to eat it, I just let them eat some kibble and try again in 4 hours with the soup?

[raynebc]

@wencme Allow the soup cubes to thaw in the fridge if you can. In a pinch, you can thaw them in warm/hot tap water. Just don't make it hot enough to cook the soup (ie. boiling temp).

njcrouth If you are grinding egg shells, best to just rinse them off and allow them to air dry. Bone meal isn't raw but is closer to raw bone nutrition-wise. KAL brand is fine, it's the kind I have. Regarding edible bone, it's any bone that is small/soft enough for ferrets to eat. There are some bones in chickens that would generally be considered too hard (especially thigh bones). Small birds like quail and cornish game hen can be fed in their entirety because all of their bones can be eaten. Various online raw sellers are recommended on the forum, the one that comes to my mind first is Hare Today. Here's a subforum listing details of some vendors:
holisticferret60.proboards.com/board/48/raw-prey-providers

Each raw feeding attempt, don't leave it up to them to try it. Hold them and offer it and if they refuse to eat off a spoon/plate, you'll need to be more assertive like using your finger to rub some on their gums or if you have to, syringing some into their mouth from the side (not the front). If you make them taste it this way, allow them to lick/swallow it down and them offer it to them again to see if they changed their mind yet. When they squirm to get away, let them down so they don't get too upset, but you may have to try several times in one sitting. If you've had enough of pestering the ferrets for one sitting, and they didn't eat more than a few drops of soup, you can allow them to have their kibble, but definitely try again later.

[Deleted]

Dec 23, 2015 13:31:37 GMT -5 njcrouth said:

Machan! Thanks for your detailed answer. I have a few follow up questions.

The link in your post for the Intro Into Raw doesn't work...could you try again please?

With the egg shells, do I have to boil them first?

I've never bought bone meal before. Is this what I'm going for? www.amazon.com/KAL-Bone-Meal-Powder-Ounce/dp/B000HNHQPC

For edible bone, when you say quail: all, and chicken: all, that means any part of those animals?

I'm trying to think through what I am able to get from my local farm where I buy all my meats, and I know any cut of chicken is available, some turkey products, and lamb and cornish hens but those two aren't always there. Is there a suggested online source for clean but also budget friendly meats like rabbit or quail?

So if I'm doing the soup, and I have a ferret that refuses to eat it, I just let them eat some kibble and try again in 4 hours with the soup?

Wow, Not sure what happened with that link for intro into raw before. Here's the link again.
docs.google.com/document/d/1PxpRVp1J_YAd6lDHI1224J1AletYzpp9tdJ7k8PpR2Q/edit

When it comes to egg shells, you can just put them in a bowl and let them sit over night.
After I give my guys their weekly eggs, I tend to put them in a bowl and forget about them for a couple of days.
If you're in a rush, You can dry them by putting them on a heat proof plate and under a grill. (I was desperate, but it worked Lol)

The Bone meal you looked at seems like a good one. Human grade is always the best.
Another brand commonly used it the NOW Bone Meal.

Yes, Any part of Quail, Chicken or Poultry makes a good bone in meat. Small birds like the quail can even be fed whole. Some people use websites like My Pet Carnivore, or Hare Today to purchase meats online. If you can't get certain meats in, you can always ask your local butchers if they are able to order anything in. Most of the time they would be able to especially if you intend to be a regular customer.

When it comes to soupie, It's best to let them try it on their own and if they turn their heads up at it, dab some on their mouth or even on their gum line. It can take a few shots, but that would help them become used to the new taste. Another idea would be to let them lick some off your finger, or from a spoon. 

[Deleted]

Thank you everyone for your input. 2 more questions popped in my head.

Are feet considered edible bone?

If doing poultry, should I leave the skin intact? It would seem like a good idea because its extra fat, but all the pictures I see on the forum show skinless cuts.

[Deleted]

My fuzzbutts love chicken wings and Cornish hens, I leave the skin on...its definitely good fat