Motherofferrets Switching Thread / Gfountain

[Heather]

Name: Justine
HF Forum Username: motherofferrets
Please confirm that you are 18 years of age or older: Yes

1. Where did you first learn about natural diets for ferrets?
From this forum! Through the research I did before I got my last group of ferrets, I learned that they were carnivores and that there are many benefits of feeding a raw diet. Because of the situation at the time, I could not start that group on a natural diet (they were also older and very stubborn) but would like to do so now with Yogi.

2. Please describe the type of diet you would like assistance in switching your ferret(s) to. Be sure to include if you are interested in feeding whole prey (live or frozen-thawed) and if you are wanting to FULLY switch to a natural diet or PARTIALLY. If you are unsure what kind of diet you want to put your ferrets on, please express that and we can help you find the best type of natural diet for your ferret.
I will need a little help deciding this one. I would like to fully switch to a natural diet but am not sure how practical it will be since I work shift work. I will not be able to feed at the same exact time every day, but can for the most part (at least until the boyfriend and I move in together, which won't be for about 6 months or so). I also wonder how practical a full switch of diet would be if he needs to be watched while I go on vacation (I'm not a globe trotter... but at the same time, I'm young and don't want to be limited because of my little buddies diet. Not sure if anyone has any experience with this). I would also be into the whole prey feeding if Yogi is into it... he's got pretty good prey drive, so I see this as a possibility!

3. Why are you interested in switching your ferrets to a natural diet?
I try to eat what is best for me, to promote health and balance... why not do the same for him? I would also like to avoid at all costs another ferret with insulinoma.

4. Do you understand that switching your ferret to a natural diet can be a lengthy, arduous process? Its not an overnight switch. It requires a commitment of several months at minimum. Your HF Mentor will be more then happy to assist you in switching your ferret(s) to a natural diet, but you need to be equally as committed. The switch takes time and effort every single day. It can also be extremely frustrating at times. If you aren't willing to tough out a potentially lengthy switching process, you have major life changes approaching (baby on the way, moving, starting school, getting married/divorced, etc), or limited time due to work, then it might be a better idea to wait on switching your ferret's diet until you have more time. Are you willing and realistically able to make the neccessary time commitment?
Yes. I have already started with the "starter" soup with him. The scruff and stuff worked, now we are on to the "scruff and lick it off my finger willingly." I'm ready for the challenge ;-)

5. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names? Ages? Genders? Do they have any health problems? Are they overweight? Underweight? How long have you had each ferret for?
1- Yogi- 7 months- male- no known health problems- average weight but he's a big guy- about a month (have previously owned ferrets for 6 years)

6. What diet do you currently feed your ferrets? (Please include all treats, supplements, etc) Do they already eat some form of soup?
Instincts raw boost rabbit- just switched him from that horrible marshals food they were feeding him at the store. He gets a little bit of ferretone as a treat when he uses the litter pan and with mineral oil. He was just started on the starter soup about 2 days ago. He has interest in it but is only eating it when scruffed atm.

7. Have you ever tried to switch your ferrets to a natural diet in the past? If yes, what happened?
No.

8. What additional information about yourself or your ferrets would you like to share?
First, thank you to all members for the warm welcome to the forum! A little about myself- I am a hospitalist Physician Assistant with a background in medical laboratory science... so I'm kind of a science nerd :-). I think it plays a big part in why I want to do the natural diet, that and seeing how horrible insulinoma is not only on little fert bodies, but how terrible long term treatment with steroids can be. I wish I could have done this with my previous group, they deserved better than what I could give them at the time. Getting Yogi completely happened by accident... when I saw him I knew I had to take him with me. I hope I can give him the best life possible and feel as though feeding naturally is apart of that.

9. How often during the week do you have access to a computer?
All the time, pretty much.

10. Please post a picture of each of your ferrets (if possible).
postimg.org/image/xrgya4pph/


11. Have you met the requirements for this program? Are you at least 18 years of age? Do you have your scale, a place to access meats, hearts, livers, etc?
As of today, August 17th 2015, I am still working on the requirements. I was encouraged, however, to apply since there is a waiting list and to start an unofficial switching thread.

Yes I am at least 18 years of age.

I have a scale but need a bigger one to weigh him with. Should be here by the end of the week


There are many ethnic markets around, some of the meats I have access to are:
Chicken hearts, chicken liver, chicken gizzard, beef heart, ox tail, turkey gizzards, turkey necks, duck


Hi and welcome to the mentoring program . In a little while your mentor (Gfountain), will introduce herself and you can get started on a new adventure in natural ferret care and diets. Please remember to post regularly (daily or as per arranged with your mentor) so that your mentor can assist you move along safely in this adventure. If you experience computer difficulties or are going to be away, please notify your mentor and most of all relax and have fun (giggle). Your mentor is here to help you on this journey.
ciao

[gfountain]

Hi motherofferrets! I'm Gina, your mentor. You can read my bio here if you're interested. I'm excited to start working with you to give your fuzzies a healthier diet! Please look over your application above and make sure nothing has changed since you filled it out.

If you have a DIY switching thread, please link it for me so I can read through it and see where you are. I'll also need current weights and 'dangling' pictures, please.

[Deleted]

Hi Gina! Thank you so much for taking me on as a mentee!

I've read over my application again and here are a few changes:
-Yogi is now 8 months old (born Feb 2015), and is still an old soul.
-Ferretone is no longer given as a treat, only salmon oil

Here is my unofficial thread:
holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/18850/yogis-unofficial-switch-thread

I have not posted on that thread in a while because... well... Yogi has been eating kibble since I started my new job And it didn't help that the last batch of soup I made went rancid in 2 days after all that hard work =.= Or that he fights so hard about the soup even though he's a youngster.

Right now the kibble mix is equal parts Orijen cat and kitten, Orijen red meat, NI turkey and duck raw boost, NI rabbit and freeze dried stella and chewy's turkey. I've tried to get him to eat the rehydrated stella and chewy's turkey but he doesn't touch it and throws a fit when i try to scruff and stuff with that. He won't even eat it if it is mixed with egg.

As a treat every other day he gets 3-4 pieces of stella and chewy's frozen rabbit with some whole raw egg and salmon oil. He doesn't eat the rabbit unless there is egg on it. Yogi is obviously a male Diva and loves loves loves egg! Because I'm putting it on top of his food he might go through 1.5-2 eggs a week... I wonder if that's too much? But it's the only way I can get him to eat it.

In other news, I've been looking for a friend for Yogi. Starting the new job is making me feel pretty guilty about leaving him home for so long and I think a friend would help him. The last ferret I introduced him to he was super squeaky and hissy (he's not deaf) but there was no pee/poo... just a lot of rough playing. We are also going to be moving soon!

I will post a dangling photo of him soon. Last time I checked his weight was 2 weeks ago and he was 3 lbs! Still on a quest for a better scale.

[gfountain]

A new job is a huge life change. Don't feel guilty for going back to the kibble (this time ). It's hard enough to do a switch on your own, especially with life changes happening. Moving is another huge change. When is that happening?

I've skimmed through your DIY thread. It seems that Mr. Yogi never did take to the soup. It could be the taste or it could be the texture that he objects to. I have a little girl who loves her raw meatz, but refuses anything even remotely soup-like simply because of the texture. Have you ever tried him with ground meat?

In order to be able to help Yogi switch, I need to get to know his eating habits, so I have a bunch of questions for you.
Just to clarify, Yogi is currently eating a mixture of kibbles and some FDR, correct? And eggs... And he doesn't like the FDR rehydrated?
You said you're looking for a better scale. Do you have any scale at all?
Do you know exactly how much he is eating in a 24 hour period?
Is he caged or free-roam?
What time does he eat? How many times a day?
Where does he eat? (Cage, kitchen floor, your lap, whatever)
What proteins do you WANT to include in his menu?
What do you currently have in the house for him to start on?

[gfountain]

And now for some reading... This is a massive information overload. Read through it but don't be overwhelmed. We'll go over all of this as we move through the switch. All of this information is on the forum, but I like to get it all onto the first page of a switching thread so you know where it is if you need it.

Welcome to the world of raw feeding. Since you’re here, you already know that raw feeding is the healthiest and most natural way to feed your fuzzbutts. There are several types of raw diets that are commonly fed. Many ferrents use a combination of these methods to provide a balanced diet. Obviously, the MOST natural way to feed would be to let your ferrets hunt for themselves like they do in the wild, but what kind of pet owner wants to just turn their pets out into a field and tell them to ‘go find dinner’! Controlled live feeding is a great way to mimic this behavior and can be used to supplement any raw diet. While it is a personal preference and must be done with caution, IF the ferret is a good hunter, and provided the live prey is no larger than a mouse, controlled live feeding is great enrichment for a ferret. The biggest downfall to feeding live (besides owner squeamishness) is the limited prey options that are small enough to be safely fed live. Pre-killed whole prey is the next closest to ‘all natural’, and is probably the easiest way to feed a ferret. Each whole prey meal is completely balanced in and of itself, so there is no need to measure and weigh (and worry about) what they eat when feeding a whole prey diet. In addition, whole prey poops are awesome - they are complete little fur- or feather-covered packages that are easy to clean up. However, whole prey can be expensive and some of us can’t feed anything that still has a face attached. A commercial grind or mince is another type of raw food that is available. The company simply takes a carcass and grinds it all up together – meat, bones, and most organs (usually not fur or feathers). Grinds are packaged in many different ratios and you must rely on the company to accurately report the contents and percentages of organs, heart, etc. in the grinds. Many grinds include added plant material (veggies and fruits), so careful research must be done to provide a completely balanced diet. Also, there are no “dental hygiene” benefits with commercial grinds so teeth must be brushed frequently, and again, it can be very expensive. And that brings us to frankenprey, a big word that simply means feeding a balanced diet with “grocery store meats”. It is possibly the most complicated method of feeding in the beginning, because it requires thought on the part of the owner, but once the initial learning curve is mastered, it is no more difficult than any other type of raw feeding. With all of these options, it’s easy to choose a method, or a combination of methods, of feeding that works for you. And once you understand the basics of ferret nutrition and establish a routine, you’ll discover that it is very simple to feed your ferret a balanced, healthy raw diet.

One thing you must remember is that with ferrets and their food, we have to speak in generalities - feeding raw is not an exact science. Our goal in feeding raw is to replicate as closely as possible what a ferret would eat in the wild with the correct balance of meat, organs, and bones, but how can we determine EXACTLY what that balance is? Because the difference in bone mass and the size of organs even between two animals of the same size and the same species can vary tremendously, we cannot set a DEFINITE ratio for our prey model and say “This is it; this is the exact amount of meat/organ/bone my ferret must have to be healthy.” Even if every single prey specimen were identical in proportions, who is to say that every single wild ferret would eat every part in exactly the right amount, especially with larger prey that cannot be consumed by a single ferret in one meal. So we get as close as we can to ‘natural’ by using a prey model that has been used for decades, a rough average of many species of prey animals - 80% meat, 10% organ, 10% bone. This prey model was originally geared toward dogs and cats who generally do not need as much bone in their diets as ferrets, which is why we say ferrets need 10-15% bone, depending on their poops. (This will be addressed later.)

Because of the different vocabulary used when discussing the different kinds of diets, there has been some confusion regarding the correct balance of a raw diet. Whole prey is easy. Each prey animal is a completely balanced meal, so there’s no need to think about numbers. Commercial grind companies use a ratio to determine the amount of meat, organ, and bare bone in their foods. (An ideal commercial grind would be approximately in the ratio of the prey model, or 80:10:10.) Frankenprey feeders don’t just toss a bare bone to their pets, but rather give them bone with meat attached, what we call edible bone-in meat. This terminology is where the confusion lies. Because the bone is served with meat, the percentage of bone-in meat is about 50-60% of the total diet (as opposed to the 10% of bare bone in the prey model). This SEEMS to be in conflict with the prey model ratio, but if you were to pick apart a frankenprey menu and weigh and measure every single thing separately, you would find that the ratio of meat to organ to bone would be very close to 80:10:10.

Below are a few of the things you will need to know as a raw feeder no matter which method of feeding you choose to use. All of this information is located in various places on the forum, but I’ve tried to condense some of the basics here for reference. This seems like a lot of information, but believe me, once you get into the actual planning and feeding, this becomes second nature.

First, raw food MUST be served RAW. I know that sounds like a really obvious statement, but I’ve heard from several people that they feed raw meat, but they cook it. (I know. I don’t understand that statement either, lol.) Cooking destroys many natural vitamins, minerals, and proteins in the meat and bones. In fact, cooked bones are extremely dangerous because they can splinter and perforate the stomach or intestines. Raw bones do not splinter; they break cleanly. They pass through the intestinal tract safely and the clean edges are actually smoothed by the stomach acids. They come out the other end a little rubbery feeling, and rounded with no sharp edges. (This video shows the effect of a stomach acid on bones. video)

Raw meat is safe for ferrets to eat. A ferret’s digestive tract is very short and bacteria doesn’t have enough time to set up camp in there. And, surprisingly, raw food can be safely left out for several hours at a time, depending on the ambient temperature:

  “Soups” - 6-8 hours (for soup recipe, see below)
  Grinds - 8-12 hours
  Chunks - 10-24 hours depending on the size (larger chunks last longer)
  Bone-in meats - 12-24 hours, again depending on the size
  Whole prey - up to 48 hours

With soups and grinds, in general, trust your nose - if it smells off, it likely is and should be tossed. You will find that the bigger chunks of meat typically go through a few stages. During the ‘safe’ hours it will dry up and the surface may feel tough or leathery; it is still safe to eat at this point. Then it goes through a stinky, greasy phase during which most ferrets will not touch it. This is usually when it gets tossed because it smells awful, but occasionally a piece or two will get stashed well enough and missed. These pieces continue to dry out and become fairly odorless, making what we call ‘ferret jerky’. Most ferrets can’t resist this and will eat really nasty looking stuff with relish. If they’re eating it, it’s either not too far gone, or it has been successfully stashed and jerkified.

Raw soup recipe

  8 oz raw skinless/boneless chicken
  1 oz raw chicken liver (about half a liver)
  1 oz raw chicken heart (about 2 hearts)
  3/4 tsp. eggshell powder
  Water to thin

Blend all ingredients until soupy. Freeze in ice cube trays (rubbed with olive oil for easy removal) to make easy-to-serve portions and reduce waste. Chicken is the most common protein to start a switch with, but any protein can be used.

The amount of food your individual ferret eats will depend on gender, age, season of the year, and his general mood. It can differ dramatically sometimes and until you become familiar with his eating habits, you will have some waste. In general (and with ferrets and their food, we ALWAYS speak in generalities), adult males eat 2-4 ounces per day, adult females 1-3 ounces per day. Kits of either gender eat 2-3 times MORE food than an adult. They all eat more when they are in the fall and winter mode, less in the spring and summer mode. In fact, ferrets can lose up to 40% of their body weight in the spring. Other factors can play a role in their eating habits also, such as stress, excitement, temperature, or attitude (“I just don’t feel like eating chicken today, mom”). Being familiar with your ferret’s eating habits at any given time of the year is important in keeping track of their health. This is one of the reasons we always recommend that you keep a food journal to track appetite, poops, activity, and weights. MOST ferrets are self-regulating and will eat only what they need. This is not to say that there are NO obese ferrets, but as a rule, they eat what they need to survive and no more. A good guideline when feeding is to try to make sure there is always a bite or two left over when you feed the next meal.

Ferrets, whether they are fed whole prey, grinds, or frankenprey, or some combination of the three, must have a minimum of 3 DIFFERENT PROTEINS in their diet, preferably including at least one red meat. Examples of different proteins are chicken, turkey, quail, beef, rabbit, pork, venison, lamb, goat, frog, fish, etc. Some common red meats are beef, bison, venison, goat, and lamb.

Taurine is an amino acid necessary for heart, brain, and eye health. Taurine is found in muscles that are used A LOT. This is why heart is a required part of the diet. The heart is constantly working, therefore it is very high in taurine. Heart can be ordered online if you cannot find a local supplier. Other good sources of taurine if you cannot find heart are brain and tongue. Brain is VERY difficult for some of us to find, but cow tongue can sometimes be found in grocery stores in locations with a large Asian or Hispanic population. If for some reason, you absolutely cannot get any of these sources of taurine, you can use a taurine supplement (500 mg per ferret per day). The NOW brand is a good one to use because it has no fillers in it. You can get taurine in capsule form, which you can break open and empty onto a meal, or pure powder form. (500mg of taurine is equivalent to ⅛ teaspoon.)

Eggs are a very healthy addition to a ferret’s diet and help in the prevention of hairballs. Generally speaking, a ferret can have the equivalent of one chicken egg per week. (I say the equivalent of a chicken egg because quail eggs, for example, are very small and it takes 4 or 5 of them to equal one chicken egg.) A whole egg is basically a completely balanced meal, designed to provide complete nutrition and waste removal for a baby bird. Therefore, ferrets can be fed the entire egg, shell and all. Whether you want to serve the egg all at once or spread it out (a little bit several times a week) is up to you. Some ferrents choose to only serve part of the egg. In this case, it MUST be the yolk - do not feed egg whites without the yolk. During shedding season, eggs can be fed 2-3 times per week to help prevent hairballs from forming. One thing to be aware of when feeding eggs is that they can create slimy, stinky poops.

And speaking of poop, poop patrol is going to become a fact of your life. A raw fed ferret’s poop is NOTHING like a kibble poop. Their poops change from meal to meal depending on what they last ate. Here is a link to the ‘poop chart’ for reference. poop chart You will likely become a little (or a lot) obsessed with your fuzzy’s litter box for the next few weeks at least, and very likely you will soon be able to tell what your ferret ate for dinner just by looking in the litter box. (You can brag about this talent to your friends if you want, lol.) In addition to his activity level, a ferret’s output is the best indicator of his health. It is also how we determine if your fuzzy needs more or less bone in his diet. As mentioned earlier, the diet should include 10-15% bone. Sometimes they need a little more bone, sometimes a little less, depending on the poops. If the poops are loose, they need more bone. If the fuzzy is constipated, or poops look dry and hard or chalky, they need less bone. Blood-rich meats (hearts, organs) will cause dark, looser poops; heavy bone meals (like chicken necks) will cause drier, more formed poops that often have tiny bits of partially digested bone in them. Another thing to expect during the first few weeks is STINKY poops! Your ferret is basically on a detox from the nasty things that are in kibble. While his digestive tract gets used to processing the raw, his stools will be stinky and odd looking most days. This will all clear up and you will have smaller, less stinky raw poops before you know it!

FRANKENPREY

The goal with frankenprey is to mimic what a ferret would eat in the wild, with the correct balance of organs, muscle meats, and bones, using foods that you can find at your grocery store. Each part of a prey animal has a unique combination of vitamins and minerals that are essential to the health of your ferret. A long term imbalance in their diet can and will cause serious health issues, so it is critical that you plan your meals in advance to ensure that your little friends get the nutrition they need for a long and happy life.

When feeding frankenprey, there are 4 main PARTS of an animal that we need to feed to meet the diet requirements: muscle meat, heart, organs,and edible bones. Remember that at least 3 proteins are required for complete nutrition. Those 3 proteins should be in the meaty part of the diet, not in the organs. However, you should also have a good variety of sources for organs, not all chicken organs, or all beef organs.

1) Muscle meat is fairly self-explanatory. It is any kind of meat that is NOT an organ, including hearts and gizzards. When discussing muscle meat, however, we are typically referring to skeletal muscle.

2) While heart IS a muscle meat, it is a cardiac muscle rather than a skeletal muscle, and it is in a category by itself because it is a vital source of taurine in a raw diet.

3) Nutritional organs are considered to be any part of the body that SECRETES a hormone. Examples are liver, kidney, thymus, pancreas, reproductive organs, lungs, brains. Liver is the easiest organ to find and should make up at least half of the organ requirement. Other organs can be very difficult to find except directly from a butcher, cultural markets, or online sources. Neither hearts nor gizzards are organs. This is a very common misconception, so be aware of it when shopping for organs. Many meat department personnel and butchers commonly call hearts and gizzards organs, but they are NOT. They are muscle meats, AND heart is a separate requirement in a ferret’s diet (see above).

4) Edible bone is any bone small enough for a ferret to eat. Generally, these are non-weight bearing bones of poultry or small animals. Because we do not feed a bare bone, but rather one with plenty of meat attached, we sort of combine this category with muscle meat and call it “edible bone-in meat”. When I (or others) refer to “bone-in”, this is what we are talking about. If we refer to “muscle meat”, we mean meat that has no bone included (chicken breast, beef roast, etc.) Examples of edible bone-in meats are poultry wings, necks, backs, ribs, sometimes thighs, whole quail, whole Cornish game hen, rabbit, mouse, guinea pig. Sometimes you can find smallish bones from a larger animal that are small enough for a ferret to eat. One example is pork button bones, or pork riblets. Some of those bones are too dense, but occasionally you can find some small enough. Although the bone requirement is only 10-15% of the total diet (remember that we use the poops to determine the bone content), because the bone is attached to muscle meat, edible bone-in meat makes up the majority of a ferret’s diet. It is critical that your fuzzy learn to eat and enjoy bones, for healthy teeth as well as to meet the calcium requirements.

Now, moving on to the basic frankenprey menu:

Raw fed ferrets are generally fed twice a day, 12 hours apart, making a total of 14 meals per week. The basic weekly menu should include:

  1 ½ meals of heart (~10% of the total diet)
  1 ½ meals of organ, at least half of which must be liver (~5% liver, 5% other organ)
  7-9 meals of edible bone-in meat (~50-60%)
  2-4 meals of muscle meat with no bone (~15-30%)

When building your menu, you want to consider the effect a particular meal will have on the poops. For example, remember that blood rich meals (liver, other organs, hearts) cause looser poops, so to combat that issue, you want to feed at least one bone-in meal between them. It is best to spread organ/heart meals out as much as possible throughout the week.

This is easier than it sounds. Below is a sample menu (in the format I will want yours to be, when we get to the menu making part, once your ferret is eating all kinds of yummy stuff).

Sun AM: organ meal (½ liver, ½ other organ)
Sun PM: edible bone-in meat

Mon AM: edible bone-in meat (or muscle)
Mon PM: edible bone-in meat

Tues AM: heart
Tues PM: edible bone-in meat

Wed AM: muscle meat
Wed PM: edible bone-in meat

Thur AM: heart and organ (½ meal of heart, ½ mixed organs)
Thur PM: edible bone-in meat

Fri AM: edible bone-in meat (or muscle)
Fri PM: edible bone-in meat

Sat AM: muscle meat
Sat PM: edible bone-in meat

You will take this basic menu and rearrange it to suit your needs, making sure to include at least 3 different proteins, and adjusting the bone-in meals depending on the poops. It is important to be flexible with your feedings. If you notice runny poops and have hearts planned for that meal, you can give a bone-in meal instead, and save the hearts for the following meal if their poops have firmed up. Don’t worry about not having something defrosted if you have to make a last minute change. Ferrets are perfectly content with ‘meat-sicles’. Some ferrets will require the full 9 meals of bone-in, while others only need 7, and this can vary from week to week depending on different factors. It won’t take long for you to figure out what YOUR ferrets need.

The easiest way to prepare meals is to have your meat separated into serving size portions (once you learn the correct amount for your business) in your freezer. Once you have your menu planned, it’s easy to grab one bag or container per meal. When you serve one meal, you can put the next meal into the refrigerator to thaw. It’s good to keep an extra bag or container of bone-in and muscle meat available in case you need to make a substitution, or your fuzzies beg for a snack.

Congratulations! You’ve made it to the end of this mini-book, lol! If you waded through all that information, you can do this switch! I have faith in you, so don’t feel overwhelmed by this information overload and get discouraged. We’ll do this in baby steps, and we’ll go over all this information again as it becomes necessary.

[Deleted]

I've listed your questions below for easy reference

Just to clarify, Yogi is currently eating a mixture of kibbles and some FDR, correct? And eggs... And he doesn't like the FDR rehydrated?
Yes! I leave kibble out for him all day. He hates the FDR rehydrated... not sure if it's because of the flavor or not. When I visited him a few times before I got him from Petco, he seemed to almost always be eating the crunchy food, rarely the wet slop. Honestly I don't think he likes the freeze dried at all, but I've been breaking it down to almost a powder so it is coating the kibble. I make sure his water bowl is full to avoid dehydrating him.
You said you're looking for a better scale. Do you have any scale at all?
Yes I do have a scale... well, I stole it from the bf :-) It's this one to be exact
www.amazon.com/Ozeri-Professional-Digital-Kitchen-Tempered/dp/B003MSZBSI/ref=sr_1_4?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1444255187&sr=1-4&keywords=food+scale
It is just kind of small to weigh yogi, but maybe I can put a box on it first and then weigh him? The last time I weighed him I used my hooman scale... weighed myself first and them me holding him.
Do you know exactly how much he is eating in a 24 hour period?
Nope. I try to keep the kibble bowl relatively full. Sometimes it will be empty in the morning or when I come home from work. Should I start measuring the kibble I put in the bowl?
Is he caged or free-roam?
Caged, he really needs to get his butt under control before I can consider letting him be free roam If I am working, however, I will usually set him up with the cage door open and access to the bathroom with linoleum in-between on the carpet. Not the biggest area, but if he's in too big of an area he forgets what litter pans are... and not even kind of forgets, he will go right in the middle of the floor with not a corner in sight. He's also been picking up digging at the carpet where I have the gate up. He's so baaaaaaad
What time does he eat? How many times a day?
All day, grazing. He seems to especially like to eat when I put some fresh kibble in his bowl.
Where does he eat? (Cage, kitchen floor, your lap, whatever)
Mostly in the cage. When he gets the frozen freeze dried with egg, it is either in the cage or on the linoleum flooring. I fed him some in my lap when I was giving him the soup, but he rarely touched it when I had it on the floor or in the cage. Sometimes I could entice him with egg on top, but he just licked the egg off and went on his way.
What proteins do you WANT to include in his menu?
Whatever little dude will eat!
What do you currently have in the house for him to start on?
I have everything for the frankenprey soup in the freezer... chicken thighs, hearts, liver and eggshell powder.

And yes yes yes, that is quite a read! I have read it before but always good to look it over again.

Do you recommend sprinkling some eggshell powder in when I feed him the egg?

I have tried feeding him chunks of meat and organs, even smothered in egg/salmon oil, but he won't eat them. Sometimes I slipped some slivers of meat in his soup when he was eating it, but usually he just spit it back out. He seemed to like chewing on the fat though. I've also put some raw ground turkey in his egg mix which he didn't seem to mind.

t tried giving him a whole mouse and rat... he chewed on the mouse head a little bit but that was it. Even opening them up and putting oil inside did nothing for him. He just wanted to show them around the room and all his hidey spots instead of eating them.

He is actually quite the chewer and loves chewing on rope toys. He also gets pretty serious about chasing things, especially the toys I have that make noises and will shake them like prey.

As for moving, could be as early as the end of the month to as late at January. The sooner the better but we are toying between buying a place and renting one... adult life nooooooo

[gfountain]

Alrighty then, let's get started. Thaw out those soup ingredients and whip up a batch of yummy soup! Just one batch for now and leave it rather thick. Rub an ice cube tray with a little bit of his salmon oil and divide the soup into 10-12 sections. Each cube should be about an ounce. (Leave one ounce thawed to start with.) Once they're frozen, pop them out of the ice cube tray and store them in the freezer in a ziploc bag or a freezer container.

Once the soup is ready, take that ounce that you didn't freeze, mix about half of it with some warm water (store the other half in the fridge until you need it) until it is the consistency of a creamy soup. Then the fun begins! Sit with him in his play area and every time he passes you, grab him and rub a little soup onto his mouth and gums. Give him a smooch and let him go. 5-10 seconds, no more. We don't want him to associate soup with interruption of the all-important playtime. Next time he bounces near, do it again. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. The goal here is just to get him used to the idea that something new is headed his way and it is NOT terrible. You need to do this grab 'n dab as often as possible the whole time he's awake.

Now if, and this is a big IF, he decides he likes this stuff that you're smearing on his cute little face and he comes to get more, offer it to him from a flat dish and let him lick it off your finger.

Let me know how your first session goes!

[Deleted]

Oooo, the frozen cubes are a GREAT idea, why didn't I think of that?!?!

Give me a day or two to get back to you on how this goes!

[gfountain]

Oct 8, 2015 9:18:17 GMT -5 motherofferrets said:

Oooo, the frozen cubes are a GREAT idea, why didn't I think of that?!?!

Give me a day or two to get back to you on how this goes!

That's what I'm here for!

[gfountain]

How is it going? Did you get the soup made?

[gfountain]

Helloooo???

[Deleted]

HI! So sorry for going MIA ;-/

No soup yet! I took the ingredients out and unfortunately I didn't get to whipping up a batch before it went bad! So I took out some extra goods today and hope to get a batch done before work tomorrow. I just haven't had the time to sit down and work with him.

We spoke briefly through email concerning using Stella and Chewy's for the mean time and I'm not sure if you had the time to look into it? He does eat the rabbit pieces with no egg now, just some oil on top. He still has kibble, however.

Also, he is weighing in at 3lbs 4oz

[gfountain]

I KNOW I copied and pasted those emails!!! I hate when the forum does this to me!

I have not had a chance to look into the S&C completely. I'm sure as a tool to switch to frankenprey, it's fine. I'm just not sure about using it as a complete diet for the long term. Are you not wanting to do a complete switch now?

[Deleted]

I would like to, but I hate to admit that a lot of things are going on right now and don't have the time like I did before to sit down and work with him (he's so stubborn!).

[gfountain]

OK, I've got some answers - finally! Sorry to take so long getting back to you on this. Everyone is busy with real life right now and it sometimes takes a while to get answers.

I checked with the other mentors and it seems that Stella & Chewy's is a pretty good grind. BUT you need to use the ones that are at least 95% meat and bone. Generally, the feline formula is better than the canine formula. Also, you need to rotate at least 3 proteins, preferably with at least one red meat. Check your ingredient lists before you purchase to make sure they have heart in them. If they don't, you may have to supplement with hearts. Also, feeding a commercial grind means you'll need to do something to take care of Yogi's teeth. You can either brush his teeth regularly or feed him chicken wings a couple of times a week. Either one will help with teeth cleaning, but even with that, he may very well need a professional dental cleaning at some point.

Even though you're not switching to frankenprey, commercial grinds are still raw and still a valid raw switch. Yogi is already eating some of the grinds so I don't think it's going to be difficult to get him switched completely.