still having problems

[Deleted]

were still having problems with pebbles!

she's been on antibiotics for awhile, on and off. i think she still has a week or so left again. she had helicobactor(sp?) first and now some other bacteria.
this is really driving me crazy.
she had a exploratory surgery done, because we thought she had a blockage.

she's getting normal food. chicken, turkey, etc. her normal diet. she's eating fine. but her poops are REALLY dark, even though i feed her light food, such as chicken. my others when they have chicken are lighter. her's are like on organ days.

the vet thinks she could have a sensitivity to the food. but she's been eating this since i got her a year ago. and this has been happening for a month or so. i don't remember the exact dates.

i really don't think it's a sensitivity, but the vet recommended putting her on kibble, which i REALLY don't want to do.

[katt]

Hey I will be on later but she sounds JUST like Koda. I'd bet she has IBD. look under health and read my thread. It has taken a LONG time but we've finally managed to learn how to control it. I was lucky enough to have the wonderful Mustelidmusk (Jennifer) mentor me through the whole ordeal. I would be happy to help out where I can if you want. I'm still learning myself (who isn't with ferrets?!) but I really learned a LOT from Jennifer.

[katt]

Ok so I am back sooner than I thought.

Here is the thread. It is VERY long but has a LOT of really great info in it. www.holisticferret60.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=vetting&action=display&thread=106

Koda used to be fed all sorts of things, but his primary meats were chicken, beef, and pork - more on the chicken and beef end. He never had a problem, normal poops all of the time. Then he got his blockage. After his surgery his poops were terrible - to be expected. Well I kept waiting for them to get better...and waiting...and waiting...and waiting... Many months later I was finally like okay, something HAS to be wrong here. I know it can take a long time to heal from a major surgery like this but this is ridiculous. Did my research, went to the vet... No parasites. We did a round of heavy medication and began to treat him for IBD and ulcers. He was on 5 different medications including heartburn meds, peptobismol, antibiotics, and carafate a tummy coater, and something else. I know metranidozole was one and boy did he HATE that one. The meds helped to stabilize his poop a little, things were looking up...he finished the course of meds, and went right back to goopy poopy.

At this point I was frustrated, broke, and desperate. Jennifer agreed to mentor me through his issues and away we went. IBD can be triggered by many things, but the key things are stress and diet. We started him off on a fail safe food - lamb. He really didn't get any meats other than lamb and whole prey for several weeks. I tracked his poop every day, what he ate, how much he ate, if I added any supplements, and what his poops were like (size, texture, muscous, color, etc). After several weeks of letting the other foods clear out of his system, we started trying various things. We tried new foods, different combinations of foods, various supplements, etc.

Here is what we found: Koda is sensitive to chicken, allergic to beef (keep in mind these are two foods he used to eat with no problem for months and months before his surgery). Reishi supplement helps to soothe his belly when it is acting up, as does slippery elm bark (a tummy coater). Pancreatic enzymes help to break down richer foods and make them easier to absorb and less likely to cause a flare up. Probiotics help him maintain relatively normal gut flora to combat the opportunistic yuckies. A high fiber diet is best for him - he gets a lot more than the recommended 1 tsp of pumpkin. He also does better on ground meats, so I buy commercial ground and freeze dried when I can. He does great on whole prey (high fiber), duck, rabbit, lamb, and pork. Bison gives him a flare up, but relatively minor.

By monitoring his poops I am able to alter his diet, add more pumpkin, or supplement to control his IBD.

[Deleted]

oh god.

her poops seem to be terrible all the time, and dark. i have quail and duck, since the chicken and turkey seems to be retarded. so i can try that. I'm not sure about beef, as it would be dark anyway, and i don't feed it often. the same with pork.

i've been wanting to do whole prey, should i actually get some and see if that would help her too. i don't have access to pumpkin. i don't think so anyway. but i think i can get squash or something like that, to see if it helps.

how are eggs for koda? i was thinking of giving them babes some tonight, but i read it in the thread. would it make her worse?

[Sherry]

Boris used to tolerate chicken a couple of times a week with no problems. He could eat chicken heart and liver as well.
He developed IBD last year, and now can't have even cornish hen. Because of Sinnead's passing, his IBD is still totally out of control, although we are working on it.

[Deleted]

i just checked her poop now, and its not dark, but seedy and mouscy looking. i think she had turkey yesterday.

how do IBD ferrets take fish and eggs?

i took out some duck to see if she takes that fine. should i do the elimination diet? and just feed something 1 thing for a week or so?

[Sherry]

It's so individual. It's literally going to be trial and error for her, if she indeed does have IBD.
Check out katt's thread on it first. That should give you a good place to start. And it's not uncommon for surgery for blockage to trigger it, either, unfortunately.
holisticferret60.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=vetting&action=display&thread=106

[Deleted]

oh dear. looks like I'm going to be having to call my vet to get her opinion on this.

i have been reading it as well.

[katt]

Personally I wouldn't feed eggs. I don't know how Koda handles them to be honest, because he won't touch them unless they are hidden in soupies. But eggs are notorious for causing runny slimy poops, and since she is already having bad poops you don't want to make them worse.

I would definitely try to get them eating some whole prey. It is the best thing you can feed anyways, and it does AMAZING things for Koda. He does best when he has a lot of whole prey, and whole prey regularly. So even if you can feed whole prey like once a week that will help.

For the pumpkin there are many options. Look around for canned pumpkin, but I know in many places it is seasonal. Not to worry! Squash baby food works just as well (you might just need a little bit more as it is more watered down). Another option is to make your own. You can get any kind of squash (acorn, pumpkin, yellow summer squash, etc) and cook it (I think boiling is best) and use that. You can also run it through a food processor, then a blender with a little water to make a paste (raw or cooked).


Dark and mucousy, seedy and mucousy, seedy and dark...all different IBD poops that I am very familiar with. The problem with IBD is that every ferret is SO different. So while Koda is allergic to beef, other ferrets might do great on it. Is there a non-poultry meat that you are not feeding a lot of right now? I would start with that and then yes, do elimination diet. Lamb is a great starter as it is very gentle on the stomach, but not all ferrets like it. Pork would be good since you don't feed it a lot. But since you don't know what food might be setting her off atm, I would start with a food she does not get regularly. Feed ONLY that food for a while, then gradually add in a little of another food. See how she does. Some do better with gradual changes as a sudden change "shocks" the bowel and sets it off. Others do okay with sudden changes. Koda went through a stage where the only way I could get decent poops was to change the protein completely every few days.

It is a LOT of trial an error unfortunately. It took several months before I started to get a handle on Koda. Maybe 6-8 months...? I would have to look at the dates. lol But yeah, it is the BIGGEST pain in the butt ever, but so rewarding when you start to make breakthroughs.

Also start a log and keep it as detailed as you can. I used excel and made columns for the date, what I fed and how much, what supplements I used, and what his poop looked like, as well as notes of what was going on (i.e. I rearranged the hammocks, or he didn't get out of the cage today, go to go outside, caught him chewing on a cord, etc). This way I could start to see trends. Like every time he eats beef, his poops are really mucousy and essentially diarrhea, every time he eats turkey, they are seedy, and every time he eats duck they are good. But oh look he ate duck and had a really terrible poop...but I rearranged my bedroom tat day, so changing things up stresses him out and makes him flare up... (Examples lol I just made these situations up). Anyways, you get the idea.

Also, keep this in mind. Some foods will naturally cause "bad" poops, like organs and heart for example lead to dark, runny poops. This is normal and is due to the high blood content of those tissues. However, say you feed beef on Monday, then Tues-Thurs feed her duck which you know she does okay on, but a few days later she still has dark runny poops. Then you know it was not the meat that caused the poop, but that she is actually flaring up in response to the meat. Beef for example with Koda leads to several days of goopy poopy, while pork liver might lead to one or two days of yucky poops. So I know he is allergic to beef but pork liver just gives him "organ poops" in a normal way.

I hope I am making sense here and not rambling too much. It is all VERY complicated but you get the hang of it really. I felt totally overwhelmed for a long time, but I am JUST getting to the point where I feel like I am really able to control things a little better. And not even all of the time. IBD sucks.

[katt]

If diet change does not do anything, then the last resort option is pred. But keep in mind that this can take months to figure out. Definitely keep your vet in the loop. I would include that this method has been successful for various people. Jennifer has had multiple IBD babies and she had a lot of success with this method, and I did too - it just took a while.

[Deleted]

ughh. well she's had duck for two days now, and her poops are still dark.
should i continue with the duck, or go onto something else?

[Deleted]

I haven't read everything, but has she been treated for ulcers? They can cause dark stools too

[katt]

Keep going with the duck for at least a few more days. Also you might consider trying something non-poultry as they can be sensitive to the grains fed to domestic poultry.

Do you have access to commercial ground raw? Koda does VERY well on that. You can mix in some pumpkin with it (a great big scoop full). You might also talk to your vet about trying carafate, pepsid (heartburn medication) and/or peptobismol. It should say in my IBD thread somewhere what the dosage of each was. But if she is having ulcer problems (could explain the dark poop) and her Intestinal lining is inflamed these can help. Talk to your vet about IBD and see what (s)he thinks.

As for switching to kibble...well I was and am VERY against that. Kibble can cause more problems than it is worth. For one it is sharp which can exacerbate an inflamed intestinal lining/ulcers, not to mention all of the other downfalls to kibble that you already know. The main reason IBD ferrets sometimes do better on kibble by my understanding is yhe consistency and the high fiber content. Fiber can be replaced with pumpkin (Koda does Very well on high doses of pumpkin mixed into the food) and consistency can be replaced with ground meat if needs be, or freeze dried provides both.
Something to consider...it took from Koda's surgery (in spring 2010 I believe it was) to only recently (this month) for me to begin getting consistently good poops from him. Along the way it was a LOT of up and Down and a lot of inconsistancy and a LOT of bad poops. It can take a year for the insides to completely heal after a major surgery. Also it took me several months of experimenting with diet to figure out what Koda could and could not have and how to control flare ups, and then a few months of being on a diet with Absolutely Nothing he was sensitive to to truly stabilize him. In the interim I was able to keep things under moderate control and learned how to manage flare ups, but his "good" poops were never perfect. And it is my understanding that wih IBD ferrets good poops are in many cases Never perfect.

You said that on turkey she had light colored poops that were just a bit seedy...? If so perhaps try going with turkey instead of duck for a few weeks. Also, coat the food (every meal) in pumpkin/pumpkin substitute (squash baby food works equally well IME). Also, if you can get some probiotics. These are typically healthy to feed anything regularly (humans, animals, etc all supposedly do well on regular probios) and will help her gut to maintain a proper balance of healthy gut flora.

[Deleted]

I have to be honest, Paulie is different than Koda. He is sensitive to most poultry if not downright allergic. He does very well on commercial ground red meats (beef, venison, bison, lamb). He can have rabbit, but must have pumpkin with it. Bison is the richest, so it is sometimes ... sloppy, but it is still the right consistency if that makes sense?

Seriously, pumpkin pumpkin pumpkin. I had never used it until November when Paulie's shed caused a scary flareup! It helps him so much just to have some in every other meal. Plus, although he won't eat it alone, it makes less desirable meats that don't bother his tummy more tasty. That's a win for me.

I agree with starting with the turkey if her poops were improving. Some ferrets are fine with turkey, it is the chicken that really gets them. Also, remember, if she is sensitive, changing foods may cause some issues so changes will need to be done slowly as you are figuring out what works. I can rotate Paulie between certain foods daily, but I can't jump from say Bison to Rabbit as easily--it takes adjustment. Thankfully, his problems are a lot more manageable than some IBD ferrets (for now). Be patient, as long as she is holding weight and eating you can work to get to that optimum diet.

Even my vet (Who is awesome and owns a ferret) has little input on IBD and said my attention to diet was the best way to manage it. In fact, she took him off pred that a different vet prescribed because of its side effects. So diet is really key for our little ones!

[katt]

I have to be honest, Paulie is different than Koda. He is sensitive to most poultry if not downright allergic. He does very well on commercial ground red meats (beef, venison, bison, lamb). He can have rabbit, but must have pumpkin with it. Bison is the richest, so it is sometimes ... sloppy, but it is still the right consistency if that makes sense?

That's the tough part with IBD ferrets is they are all so different that what works for one may be terrible for another. I feel that the general approach is certainly the same, and high fiber content seems to be helpful pretty much across the board, but as far as what foods cause what and how often they can be changed and yadda yadda...

As for the poultry thing, as I mentioned above it is believed that that may be due to the grains they are fed. I would be very curious to see how Paulie might do on some type of wild game bird that was not on a captive-grain-fed diet...

Seriously, pumpkin pumpkin pumpkin. I had never used it until November when Paulie's shed caused a scary flareup! It helps him so much just to have some in every other meal. Plus, although he won't eat it alone, it makes less desirable meats that don't bother his tummy more tasty. That's a win for me.
I could not agree more! But because you mentioned having a hard time finding pumpkin, squash baby food works very well also. Oh, and check pet stores especially local "Mom and Pop" places as they will sometimes have canned pumpkin for pets.

I agree with starting with the turkey if her poops were improving. Some ferrets are fine with turkey, it is the chicken that really gets them. Also, remember, if she is sensitive, changing foods may cause some issues so changes will need to be done slowly as you are figuring out what works. I can rotate Paulie between certain foods daily, but I can't jump from say Bison to Rabbit as easily--it takes adjustment. Thankfully, his problems are a lot more manageable than some IBD ferrets (for now). Be patient, as long as she is holding weight and eating you can work to get to that optimum diet.
haha See and Koda went through a phase where he did best if I constantly kept the foods changing. It basically tricked his stomach into not having as much time to react and flare up to one particular food. At least that's the impression I got. Now that I have found foods he is okay with eating he does very ok for longer periods on one food.

Even my vet (Who is awesome and owns a ferret) has little input on IBD and said my attention to diet was the best way to manage it. In fact, she took him off pred that a different vet prescribed because of its side effects. So diet is really key for our little ones! [/quote][/b]

Yeah IBD sucks. There really is very little known about what causes it and how to treat it. Every case is SO different, there are different causes, and obviously as you are learning what works for one does not work for all. It is a major pain in the butt. Diet does seem to be the best way to manage things though IMO/IME.