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Post by finniganpiper on May 12, 2011 11:39:14 GMT -5
Hi guys, I'm new here, but my 4.5 year old male ferret just underwent adrenal surgery on Tuesday and the vet called with bad results. It's bilateral, she explored his cavity and everything looked great except the adrenal glands and the liver. She took the left gland out, biopsied his liver because it looked "off" and he had some scar tissue on it  not sure what's going on there and she's concerned (not sure what order those were done in), but then the worst of the worst happened and he started vomitting before she could do anything else, so she was unable to take the right or do a biopsy on his lymphnodes. She tried to stop the vomitting for over a half hour before she closed him up for fear of losing him. She has NEVER had this happen before and didn't know what to make of it whether it was a reaction or another possible underlying disease going on. He had surgery back in September for a nasty hairball that was causing an obstruction in his tummy and had zero problems through that. He is home and doing very well now thankfully. He wants to come out and play - poor man has to stay in there for 7-10 days. I've been a wreck for awhile now and the biopsy results should be back on Friday. I was wondering if anyone else had similar experiences and what the outcome was. Since she had to leave the right gland in, what should I expect. I won't hear back from her until the biopsy results come in and then I will talk to her. Our little girl went in the same day to get a tumor removed from her tail as well. It's been an exhausting week for us and the "kids." I guess I'm just looking to see what everybody's thoughts are and any advice, experiences, etc. are all very appreciated. Thank you! |
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Post by Heather on May 12, 2011 11:58:22 GMT -5
I'm sorry that you're having such a hard time in total and really sorry about the issues your little boy is having. Once the biopsy comes back you will have a better picture about what you're going to have to do. I don't do a lot of surgeries, the little ones just don't handle them well. My vet and I decided that we were going to avoid adrenal surgeries if at all possible. With all the positive chemical methods I can't really see much benefit, when weighing the risks of surgeries. I would suggest in the adrenal treatment that you go for a des implant to see if you can halt the growth of the tumour on the adrenal gland . All this of course hinges on the outcome of the liver biopsy but that at the moment would probably be your ultimate weapon against the adrenal. JMO of course  Good luck ciao |
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Post by finniganpiper on May 12, 2011 12:03:45 GMT -5
I know my vet immediately suggested Melatonin and Lupron and possibly a melatonin implant before we discussed the adrenal surgery plan, and I'm currently reading the forums stuff on the deslorilin implants. Would surgery be viable though given the vomitting? Is des more effective than lupron and melatonin?
Would the fact that both adrenal glands are involved with possibly the liver mean he's too far gone? I know the biopsy results will give us more of a feel of what the next step is, I guess I'm just trying to prepare myself for the worst of the worst.
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Post by Heather on May 12, 2011 12:33:45 GMT -5
Liver issues are never favourable, so until you know exactly what you're dealing with we won't go there  It could be just that scarring in which case he will loose some liver function but he should be fine. I've not done the melatonin implant (always oral) with success, I've used lupron with success (moderate) and presently I'm using Des. I'm not going to say that any one works better than the other. If it is cancer and not just benign tumours on the adrenal, none of the above seems to work very well. I don't know why it just doesn't (actually the melatonin seems to work best for this). Unfortunately, each ferret and their response to these medications appears to be different. I presently have 4 on the des implant (I did have 5 but she has since passed on the des was our last ditch for her, I don't know if the adrenal killed her or she finally died of old age she was 10) Pooka (my little old lady RIP) started with the melatonin, progressed to the lupron and then finally to the des. My other guys just went straight to the des because I had ordered 5 shots. Each has responded differently. Captain Jack and Sprite responded the best. Reacting like a total recovery (it's not but in appearances ), Lady "B" has responded very well, but has another issue going on (cancer of some sort) so isn't doing quite as well. Yuri, well Yuri is Yuri and he's got the stomach issues from adrenal  so he's fighting ulcers (that never bodes well  ) I have to admit that of all of them I've got a more consistent response from the des but we haven't gone to the second shot yet. That comes up in July ciao |
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Post by miamiferret2 on May 12, 2011 13:45:45 GMT -5
it is awful to have to wait and see what the biopsy results are but i guess that is what has to be done. waiting is the hardest part.
i know that when my ferrets have had advanced adrenal disease, their liver enzymes would go up really high (alarming numbers) and then go back to normal. I am not sure whether that would cause the liver to look "off"? i also don't like to do surgeries on my ferrets. when the adrenal tumors become advanced, the cancer will often metastesize to surrounding organs such as the liver, kidneys, and also to the bladder. before the adrenal surgery was he on any medications? any other medical conditions? some medications (like prednisone) really cause damage to the liver. i hope the biopsy comes back negative.
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Post by finniganpiper on May 12, 2011 13:46:06 GMT -5
Thank you Heather. I appreciate your honesty and opinions. I'm hoping the liver is just the scarring, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see and address that when we get there...have you ever had one with liver issues before? I'm guessing the outlook is never good and lifespan is probably drastically reduced. He's been such a healthy boy his entire life and other than this, all of his other organs are doing great. From what I've read, the des seems like there's more of an effect and prolonged happy life time, but as you said, they all respond different. Have you heard of anyone administering all therapies at once before and possible side effects of that? I just feel awful because the morning before bringing him in for surgery he was playing like a wild man and oh so excited about going for a car ride, acting like nothing was wrong, only a small ring around his tail is bald. Thanks so much again Heather. I really appreciate it. |
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Post by finniganpiper on May 12, 2011 13:51:47 GMT -5
it is awful to have to wait and see what the biopsy results are but i guess that is what has to be done. waiting is the hardest part. i know that when my ferrets have had advanced adrenal disease, their liver enzymes would go up really high (alarming numbers) and then go back to normal. I am not sure whether that would cause the liver to look "off"? i also don't like to do surgeries on my ferrets. when the adrenal tumors become advanced, the cancer will often metastesize to surrounding organs such as the liver, kidneys, and also to the bladder. before the adrenal surgery was he on any medications? any other medical conditions? some medications (like prednisone) really cause damage to the liver. i hope the biopsy comes back negative. We were definitely not expecting the liver to be off. He only had surgery once prior to remove an obstruction which turned out to be hair (despite laxatives on a regular basis). I didn't think adrenal tumors commonly spread. He hasn't been on any other medications other than in September when he had surgery for the obstruction, and that was antibiotics and pain killers (which I suppose could technically cause liver damage), but he could also have another underlying disease we're not seing just yet too. Other than that, he's been a perfectly healthy little man his entire life. When they did his bloodwork (when we went in to have him tested for the AD and get his routine look over) they said his liver count was slightly high, but said that that would be caused by the AD anyway. |
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Post by miamiferret2 on May 12, 2011 14:00:07 GMT -5
did the vet run blood tests before the surgery to check liver enzymes? what are the levels?
if the liver biopsy comes back negative, the liver regenerates itself pretty well. if his liver is okay, then would get him started on deslorelin right way. or monthly lupron if your vet can't get the deslorelin.
when i dealt with the "up and down" liver enzymes, it was with a ferret that had large bilateral adrenal tumors. the tumors were really big on the ultrasound. my heart sank when i saw that. he was about 6 ish when we did the ultrasound. the only reason we did the ultrasound is because on an xray his heart was large and shaped like a boot so we wanted to see how his heart was functioning (according to the vet, his heart was functioning more than good, just like a kit's--i had given him coq 10 every day of his life so i am sticking to my story that it is due to the coq-10-- LOL ).
anyway, his liver enzymes would go up really high and then a few months later they would be down to normal ranges. I never had him opened up because he was already about 7 when we were having the liver enzyme issues --but i wonder now if i had opened him up what would his liver have looked like? he was also on melatonin for over 3 years, lupron, and then deslorelin. i once heard that melatonin can cause liver damage. (i decided to use it anyway on my ferrets because the adrenal tumors are not so great either!) so now i wonder if it was the melatonin that made the liver enzymes go up and down like that? who knows. aren't pretty much all medications bad for the liver?
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Post by miamiferret2 on May 12, 2011 14:04:26 GMT -5
oops i didn't see that about the liver enzymes. you know, just wait and see. I freaked out for about 5 or 6 months with the whole liver enzyme thing but i had to stop because i was driving myself nuts and the enzymes would always go back down. his lymphocyte counts did the same thing (really high then back to normal) for a while but that is related to infections, helicobacter, etc. From what I've read, the des seems like there's more of an effect and prolonged happy life time, but as you said, they all respond different. Have you heard of anyone administering all therapies at once before and possible side effects of that? In my experience, all adrenal tumors are different. they respond differently to the different treatments. some respond well to lupron, some respond better to deslorelin. etc. it is trial and error really. Whatever you choose, I would combine lupron or deslorelin WITH melatonin. don't worry about side effects. those adrenal tumors are far worse. (by the way, i'm like the adrenal QUEEN around here because i HATE it so much). i had our baby ferret implanted with deslorelin to hopefully prevent it altogether or at least stave it off for as long as possible. keep his room DARK after sundown. There was a recent thread here about eco friendly light bulbs possibly aggravating adrenal disease because the light emitted more closely resembles natural lighting. it is under "adrenal prevention." we are living like vampyres now in my house! |
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Post by finniganpiper on May 12, 2011 14:23:41 GMT -5
Thanks Miami! That's really interesting with the results and trials you've had. Yes, technically most medications are bad for the liver, which I'm hoping might be the case and he has some slight liver damage that will repair itself and we can treat the adrenals and he can live out a few more good happy months/years, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Ugh! Isn't it awful how much we worry about the changes and their little bodies. I keep trying to tell myself that we're doing all we can right now and we have to take it one step at a time and worrying doesn't make him any better, but I can't STOP!!!! UGH!!!!
Okay, so definitely whatever we choose (des or lupron) WITH the melatonin. I know the vet specialist was recommending the lupron and melatonin both, she's jsut waiting to see what the biopsy results bring.
So is it the AD the reason I should keep him a darker area or the melatonin? I keep reading to keep them in a darker area and minimize aritificial lighting but I've read conflicting things about why it should be done so I'm a little confused. Anyone care to enlighten me? lol We have a lot of windows so the light he gets is natural, but at night one light, lights the whole apartment up, so is it just the artificial lights I should worry about or should I consider moving him to a darker place and covering the windows/even his cage during the day too?
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Post by Heather on May 12, 2011 14:55:49 GMT -5
Natural light is good, artificial light is the culprit it messes with their melatonin levels. Basically, their bodies think it's perpetually summer. This means altered or not they're perpetually in hypersex drive. Things do not work well when they're kept at peak levels 24/7. Right now we're actually debating as to wether the new energy saver lights are even worse (I never had adrenal until I installed them  ) I have no conclusive evidence, just notes Sorry, I should have said that I use melatonin with all my adrenal treatments too, des, lupron...I use melatonin with all of them. ciao |
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Post by miamiferret2 on May 12, 2011 15:29:25 GMT -5
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Post by finniganpiper on May 13, 2011 7:19:42 GMT -5
Great! Thanks so much guys! You've been a wonderful help!
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Post by miamiferret2 on May 13, 2011 7:30:45 GMT -5
Have the biopsy results come back yet? How is she doing?
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Post by finniganpiper on May 13, 2011 9:47:32 GMT -5
No biopsy results yet, or at least no phone call yet. Not sure if the vet's in today though. Finn's doing very well. I think the pain killers are keeping him a little sleepy, which is good because he'd probably be ready to play hard if he wasn't LOL His sutures look great and he's been eating, urinating, defecating, drinking well. Such a good boy about his meds. Thankfully he LOVES the probiotic so I save that for last to give him. He's such a little trooper! Piper is doing well with her tail aputation. Poor little girl didn't have a large tail to begin with and now it's even smaller. They've bandaged it to keep it clean from the litter pan and infections and will have the sutures removed in about 7 days-ish. I've been doing a lot of research on the des implant. I'm just wondering if my vet will be up for it. i'm actually thinking about getting it for both of them - as a "treatment" option for Finn and as a preventative for Piper. Are most vets willing to work with you on getting it if they don't have it? |
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It could be just that scarring in which case he will loose some liver function but he should be fine. I've not done the melatonin implant (always oral) with success, I've used lupron with success (moderate) and presently I'm using Des. I'm not going to say that any one works better than the other. If it is cancer and not just benign tumours on the adrenal, none of the above seems to work very well. I don't know why it just doesn't (actually the melatonin seems to work best for this). Unfortunately, each ferret and their response to these medications appears to be different. I presently have 4 on the des implant (I did have 5 but she has since passed on the des was our last ditch for her, I don't know if the adrenal killed her or she finally died of old age she was 10) Pooka (my little old lady RIP) started with the melatonin, progressed to the lupron and then finally to the des. My other guys just went straight to the des because I had ordered 5 shots. Each has responded differently. Captain Jack and Sprite responded the best. Reacting like a total recovery (it's not but in appearances 
so he's fighting ulcers (that never bodes well 