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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2015 13:54:36 GMT -5
Hey, Sorry for my delay. Trying to sort things out on my end. As far as Alvin goes, we can go back to soupies with slivers in it. Another option would be hand feeding the slivers to him. Have you tried that? I cant remember. Other organs besides kidneys (Go here): holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/13628/defines-nutritional-organ-meatBut they need kidneys! So it's half kidneys and half another organ. And good idea on the liver cubes =)! As far as getting Farley onto raw, you can try adding a few drops of salmon oil into his food and mixing it up to see if he jusst goes for it. Remember that with his food, you have to add eggshells or actually for both of them (Assuming alvin is having issues with bones? Correct me if I'm wrong.)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2015 7:46:02 GMT -5
Hi Jocelyn. Alvin goes to the vet today for a des implant, BG check and to see what is going on with his legs. I was sure he was getting weight related issues but now it sounds more like BG? I'm hoping it's not getting worse. He has been getting more Stella's lately as his 3rd meal. Does that have too much carbohydrate? Alvin is otherwise not showing other insulinoma signs. Bright eyes that are alert, no head bobbing, etc.
He is going to have kidney today. Should I purée it to start? He is getting better about chewing.
I am thinking about making a large batch of soupie to use as a gravy for food. A baby food replacement of sort. They now get beech nut instead of gerbers and the amount is much less when used to get Alvin to eat.
Farley lives salmon oil and that is very helpful. He doesn't really eat much per sitting so I'm not sure if he is eating any of the raw I leave out for them or not.
Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2015 13:24:30 GMT -5
Well if I remember correctly you said he was gaining weight and losing the mobility of his hind legs? That's, sadly, common when giving pred. It causes pred belly =/ Both my boys got pred belly and it sucked. If he's having difficulty walking or slips on tile get him a rug or area rug in the areas there he's around. I had to do that for my boys so they could walk around in room. Pred helps but it also has its own downfalls. If I remember correctly, his BG was 76... fasting? I did this when both my guys had insu, I bought a glucometer and tested their BGs at home. Of course, I still took them in to get their BG tested at their vets but it's a good idea to have a glucometer at home just in case he begins to crash you can check his BG and act fast. Now, I'm sure whether you've seen an insulinomic crash and I highly doubt you will since Alvin is on species appropriate diet but they begin to start clawing at the mouth (mine would dig at something instead of their mouth. They wanted to burrow their heads underneath something), another symptom would be drooling and staring off into space. Those are the main ones, if the BG drops very low they will begin to walk in a drunk-like fashion (off to one side.) I've seen the drunk walk and it's scary because I had no clue what was going on. Just letting you know so that you know the symptoms. In order to prevent a crash, you identify the symptoms and push a high protein meal (puree meats or soupies.) This is important because it will stablize their BG. Some people say to use karo syrup but my vet would hold off until it was neccessary. All vets are different. Again, Don't mean to scare you just want you to have this information. Back to glucometers, I took mine to a BG reading at the clinic and they took their sample and I took mine from where I was going to always take the samples from (The side of the toes) then we compared and I adjusted accordingly. Then I had something at home to test BGs, especially when trying to see if the pred increase was working between meals. So this is something to think of, you don't have to have a glucometer at home but it comes in handy.
Puree kidney is fine, we can work from puree to slivers. Baby steps since I dont think they've had kidney before.
Also read that Alvin is chewing! Congrats on that! Lol, let's hope he keeps chewing! How's Farley on his transition going? You can leave the meats out, they will not eat it if it has become spoiled. They have a better nose than us, so if they think it smells bad... they will not eat it at all.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2015 17:59:52 GMT -5
Hi Jocelyn. Yes, Alving's BG was 76 and that was 4 hours after his last meal. I got a home meter but I couldn't get the darn thing calibrated. I took it to the vet twice with Alvin and both times it read something really wonky. Thought it was a large bias factor but the next time it was even worse. The vet that does not cut the nail to take a BG reading is an hour away so I would love to have a meter at home that I can trust. Are there any that do not require calibration? I thought I saw Sherry post a few on FB but I can't find that comment now.
I need to go back to Alvin's old menu and vamp it up again. He has been eating a lot of Stella's (he loves it) but he also gets at least 2 meat meals a day as well. With egg shell.
Farley is doing pretty well with sampling the meats but he also loves Stella's. I don't want them both on FDR as the main component to their diet. I use it because it is quick and Alvin will eat it without hesitation. I don't like the veggies and other additives though. I'm going to give Farley a chicken foot this weekend to see if he will chew on it a while. He is my chewer boy and loves anything rubber. He learned that if he pulls non-chewing shoes over to the bench where the crocks were hiding that he could stand on those shoes and hop onto the bench. Yeah, Papa has some stuff to learn about ferrets still. The crocks are now up much higher.
I'll get pics uploaded to the forum for Farley's "I'm starting out" post.
Thanks! Have a great weekend.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2015 10:25:25 GMT -5
That's right. Grr, I hate it when they take the blood from the toenail. It's painful v.v
Describe wonky. Wonky as in your reading was off by like a unit of 20 (+ or -)? If so, that's normal. My reading was 20 off from Pinky but 18 off for Tiny. That's what I meant about calibrating your device to your vet's reading.
A revamp! Awesome, please make sure to let me see the full menu he's on so that I'm also in the loop.
As far as stella's goes, remember that it's a balanced meal too. It has muscle, liver, gizzards, and ground bones in it, in addition to the additives. Of course, an actual meats meal is better because the nutrients are already there instead of added on. But it's the best FDR to feed them that doesn't have a ton of fruits. Another good one is Rad Cat, but I'm under the impression that you wanted to keep them on a frankenprey kind of meal.
I'm loving farley! Love that he chews just not the rubber. Keep an eye out for that, I'm sure you already are. We don't want a digestive block =/ How did the chicken foot go?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2015 21:28:43 GMT -5
Wonky as in the thing really never worked. It read 2 one time, had errors two other times and I was having a hard time getting a bead of blood on Alvin's tail while trying to get the meter to actually take a reading. So, every time I tried to take it in to the vet to calibrate it it would never work right. If I could get a meter that is sound enough without a calibration at the vets office that would be great. I got okay at getting the blood (although Alvin's tail has a good amount of hair at the tip still).
So, with the FDR, I'm using that as a supplement for additional feeding along with the 2 meals of full raw. Basically Alvin loves the stuff and I use it to encourage eating when I'm not there to hold him and feed him. Sounded like a decent compromise to his pickiness. I do make sure he gets his organs, heart and meats and eggshell. I try to get in lamb, pork and beef weekly with slivers of quail or hen when I can chop them up. He will chew the softer meats but not quite the beef or lamb. If I get stew meat pork that seems to be easier for him to chew. He does pretty well with the heart and liver. Haven't tried the kidney yet. I gagged when I was pureeing it so I'm hesitant to take it back out and let it thaw. Bleh.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 8:24:01 GMT -5
Farley!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2015 14:59:59 GMT -5
Ah I see. You werent getting anough blood into the reader. I had that problem too. You have to massage the blood to the area you're going to poke before you take the blood. So massage until the area becomes reddish then poke and massage a little more (but not too much, their blood clots faster than ours), then get a nice drop out and then measure.
Farley is soooo adorable!!! OMG! I could just cuddle with him for hrs. Lol.
So how are the boys doing? I'm sorry that I've been away for a while. I'll try to check on a daily basis. I get to work and become so busy and then I run to the gym then practice and I get home exhausted just to start over again the next day >.< You mentioned that you were going to change up their menu. How is that going? Can I get a glimpse of their menu? =)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2015 16:03:45 GMT -5
Hey, just checking in for an update on how the boys are doing? How are they chewing? Have bones been introduced again?
Also, I wanted a written up menu of what theyre eating in the am and pm, snack included if they get snacks, so that I can see if how well their menus are.
Here's an example of what I want, when you have a chance. I know Thanksgiving is coming up and things will get hectic: Monday AM: Chicken Hearts w/ Chicken Liver Monday PM: Chicken Wings Tuesday AM: Chicken thighs Tuesday PM: Pork Kidneys Wednesday AM: Rabbit front legs whole Wednesday PM: Chicken muscle meat
...etc. Until Sunday. You can just write it by hand until you get 7 days worth of meals written out and then type them up for me to see. I feel a little left in the dark when it comes to what they're eating. Hope all is well with the boys.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2015 23:04:21 GMT -5
HI Jocelyn, So sorry I haven't posted this yet. I have a terrible time with sitting at a computer. Alvin and Farley are doing pretty well. They have vet appointments this weekend. Alvin needs a BG check, but he is doing much better with hind leg weakness since we doubled his pred. Farley needs a wellness checkup and a DES implant. I was on work travel last week and Hubby prepared one meal of Stella's and one meal of meat each day while I was away. I bought turkey necks and chicken feet to try to get Farley to try, but he so far hasn't been too eager to try anything new. He is starting to eat meats readily though so I'm hoping he will pick up on bones soon.
Saturday/Sunday was lamb, eggshell, Stella's while trying to take inventory of what I had left in the freezer. Monday AM: Beef with eggshell topped with some Stella's (I find this works just as well as babyfood as a starter Monday PM (split into 2 meals): chicken hearts and stella's with a touch of baby food Tuesday AM: Stella's and beef Tuesday PM: chicken liver mixed with beef and eggshell. Later they will have more Stella's to keep up Alvin's BG. I find a soupie Stella's does get eaten overnight. Wednesday AM: Last of defrosting beef. Eggshell dependent on poops Wednesday I hope to get to the Asian Market to pick up quail or hen. That will be dinner if I can get quail that will defrost in the sink. Thursday - Sunday depend on the meats I can find. I have more lamb and pork in the freezer but they've had a lot of those proteins lately.
Someone suggested uterus as another meat option. Not sure how that will go with Alvin and Farley...mmm, probably not so easy. The kidney did not get eaten - at all. Not even mixed with baby food. I might mix it with some Stella's but I cannot deal with the smell.
I had some rabbit Wysong FDR samples and the boys did not try it. I would love to try some frozen raw rabbit but it's so expensive I would hate to toss it if they don't want it. Alvin had issues with buffalo - not sure if it was an allergy or just something funky going on.
I know you said kidney is pretty essential. I may need to be a bit more tricky with serving that. If you have any ideas I'd love to hear. The boys absolutely love Stella's but I would prefer to use that only as a 3rd meal and for topping off a larger serving of meat. Is that okay to do? It's not their main meals and I try to balance with heart and liver.
Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2015 7:51:41 GMT -5
Hi Jocelyn, I hope you had a very Happy Thanksgiving! I have a question about Alvin's appetite. He seems to eat and eat and eat. It could very well be the cold weather plus his pred (0.25 ml twice a day). I am curious though if he might be eating trying to get all the nutrients he needs. He gets 2 meat meals in addition to Stella's to fill in some snacks *unless* it is an organ or heart meat which the meat gets swapped. I am adding eggshells to the meats for most meals adjusting for the "output" consistency. He seems to be doing okay for muscle tone and he is able to run around now. I just want to make sure that he is getting his nutrition.
Farely is a silly boy. He now only eats in very small spurts so I'm making sure to give him a few minutes alone with the plate. I sometimes have to spoon feed him a bit just because he is flighty. His hips are not filling in yet, but I'm working on making sure he eats his meats. He also sometimes needs encouragement to eat the meats like Alvin did early on. Since he loves Stella's I've started adding a bit of Stellas to the meat to replace adding baby food to the meat. I figure the Stella's may be more nutritional than the baby food.
Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2015 1:50:44 GMT -5
Sorry for the delay. I had to consult some of the mentors for my reply. This will be a slightly long post.
Let's begin with the last post and work backwards.
He seems to eat and eat and eat. It could very well be the cold weather plus his pred (0.25 ml twice a day). I am curious though if he might be eating trying to get all the nutrients he needs.
Since he does have insu, it could be the pred increasing his appetite, since pred does cause pred belly. But, he has been on it for some time so it could actually be his winter mode activating. Most ferts, with their seasons in check, have an increase of appetite during the winter seasons then a decrease during the summer or maybe a little before summer. So do not be alarmed by this. Some ferret's seasons are out of wack and that is okay as well so don't be alarmed if Farley isn't bulking up yet. Maybe he's in his summer season. But, keep an eye out for him as well.
"He gets 2 meat meals in addition to Stella's to fill in some snacks *unless* it is an organ or heart meat which the meat gets swapped. I am adding eggshells to the meats for most meals adjusting for the "output" consistency. "
Stella's. I have spoken with my fellow mentors and we will have to ween both of them off FDR. I know, I know. I allowed it because of the insulinoma but the other mentors are concerned that Alvin isn't going to progress forward in his switch if he continues to indulge in what I was told is "ferret crack." Not that it's bad, but if he's doing a full switch to frankenprey, we want to work in that direction and once they're both on chunks, only then can we reintroduce it into their diet as an occasional special snack. The thing is that they WILL hold out for FDR like they will for kibble. It is every bit as addictive and every bit as much of a deterrent to the switch. Infact, the additive in the FDR could worsen the insu, so for now let's remove it.
Alvin I believe was on small slivers? Or was it medium size? I think last time it was medium-ish but I dont know if he has regressed. So, in order to prevent this regression or to keep him from being finicky with his slivers, we have to remove the FDR for now. Bring back the soup to the slivers if that is what it takes. Remember they're toddlers. If you want to feed toddlers veggies, you do not want to reward them with dessert before they finish their veggies. If we do, they will just avoid eating the veggie to get the dessert anyway.
Eggshells. We need to move Alvin to bone meal. He's been on eggshells for a little too long that he needs the nutrients from the bone meal, which has phosphorus and other minerals, in addition to the calcium. At first it's okay to use eggshells but in time, the body needs the extra nutrients from the actual source and it's about that time.
"I sometimes have to spoon feed him a bit just because he is flighty. His hips are not filling in yet, but I'm working on making sure he eats his meats. He also sometimes needs encouragement to eat the meats like Alvin did early on. Since he loves Stella's I've started adding a bit of Stellas to the meat to replace adding baby food to the meat"
Spoon feeding it okay! If you can hand feed him, even better. He will gain the weight, do not worry. You have already shown so much progress with Alvin. Same thing goes with Mr. Farley, No stella's. v.v
Okay Now onto the post before this one!
"I bought turkey necks and chicken feet to try to get Farley to try, but he so far hasn't been too eager to try anything new. He is starting to eat meats readily though so I'm hoping he will pick up on bones soon."
Finger crossed for Mr. Farley. How is Alvin doing with bones? I haven't gotten a recent update on that. For now, let's get both of the boys on the same page before moving to bones. But, if they are chewing bones let me know.
"Someone suggested uterus as another meat option. The kidney did not get eaten - at all. Not even mixed with baby food. I might mix it with some Stella's but I cannot deal with the smell. "
Yeah, I saw that. Organs aren't always the best smelling food group. Did you try adding their fave oil? If baby food didn't help, maybe we need to look at another organ. Spleen, pancreas, the brain, or the thymus may be alternative if uterus or testicles don't fly with the boys. Remember that the other organ has to be a major Hormone-Secreting Tissues. Have you seen any of the organs I listed at any meat market that you have visited?
As far as the menu, let's remove the stella then revisit the menu at a later time. Let's get Farley caught up to where Alvin is at then move forward! Keep up the good work. Remember to be consistent and firm with them when they refuse to eat. Hand feed when possible and make sure Alvin still has that healthy appetite without the Stella's. We can't have his BG dropping either. Let me know what you think.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2016 15:46:08 GMT -5
Hey! Happy New Year!!!
It's been some time since I've checked in on the boys. Wanted to give them some time to adjust to not having FDR. How are they? How is the progression to only raw going? Please let me know. =)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2016 0:21:31 GMT -5
Hi Jocelyn, Happy New Year!
I've been having health problems and then Farley decided to go on a hunger strike so it's been an interesting time trying to get Farley to eat anything - even the FDR. I thought he had been eating mince but it turns out he was stashing most of it and losing a bit of weight at that time. So, he is back on soupie and some FDR. I've been working him back up to mince and he seems to do better some days than others. I have had to give Farley a different plate than Alvin. I think Alvin was just showing he is the elder and pushing Farley away (in a nice older brother kind of way). Farley is also easily distracted so it was trying just to get him to stay and eat. I have started to give him a few minutes of eating time and then let him play. I sit down with him and make sure he gets a decent share of food before I go to work or end my day. That seems to be working (and i seem to recall having to do the same with Alvin when he was first transitioning as well). We are working his way back up with the slivers and reducing the soups.
Alvin has been doing great. He is eating small to slightly larger slivers with a bit of "gravy" which is either a small amount of soupie, baby food or a small amount of FDR (the tiny bit isn't enough to make the meat swim). His appetite is starting to decrease a little which I think is doing him well. I still feed him 2 main meals a day and 2 additional snacks but he seems to have more energy and a bit more oomph. He isn't gorging himself any more it seems which makes Alvin a happy boy.
They had hearts last night and they still need some liver. Meats have been lamb grinds and pork slivers. I actually found ground kangaroo at Sprouts last weekend so that is on the menu this week if they take to it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2016 18:10:38 GMT -5
Yeah, I think I remember reading that somewhere on facebook. Poop. They are stashers, it's natural instinct. How has Farley been doing with the addition of FDR? Remember we're trying to get both of them on the same boat.
I'm glad that Alvin is going great! I'm glad that he's chewing larger slivers. Now, if we can wean him and Farley off of FDR and onto bone-in meals. Baby steps but we eventually do need them eating up bones.
How did they like the kangaroo? Such spoiled little ones, I haven't even tried that haha. Keep me posted, of course. I want them off of FDR and on full on meats and, in time, bone-in meals. They're already accepting the majority of the organs. How are they with the liver? Last time you said they weren't having it. Let me know =)
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