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Post by bitbyter on Apr 19, 2015 20:41:00 GMT -5
Adult ASF's are larger than mice but much smaller than "normal" rats.
Adult Mouse: 22gr or 0.77oz is average size (breeders can be bigger) Adult ASF: 62gr or 2.2oz is average size (breeders can be bigger) Adult Rat: 200gr or 7oz is average size (breeders can be bigger)
I do not suggest grinding up mice as that would include the guts. The smell is HORRIBLE when you do that and go "off" very quickly (due to gut bacteria).
As for how much whole prey to feed. Weight what they normally eat and then use a similar weight of whole prey. For example, my two girls usually eat about 4oz a day so I give them 2 adult ASF's on whole prey days.
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Shawna
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Post by Shawna on Apr 20, 2015 13:56:42 GMT -5
Ah! hadn't thought about the stomach or the intestines!!
Thank you bitbyter!!
Last night I took some chicken wings & smashed them up so that the bones were nice & small & added it to my pork meat, kidney, spleen & chicken heart.. added some EVOO &.... YAY
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Post by Celene on Apr 20, 2015 17:02:38 GMT -5
Did you get some crunching action from both? IMO, once the fuzzies are eating bone you're basically home free switching-wise, it gets a lot easier from then on. After that, you just need to work up to them eating bone without prior smashing, increasing meat chunk size, and introducing new proteins.
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Shawna
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Posts: 111
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Post by Shawna on Apr 21, 2015 13:32:41 GMT -5
They are both eating bone. They wouldn't eat the pork unless I mixed the chicken & EVOO in with it.
I tried introducing them to lamb thru a sample of Rad Cat & Zim wasn't thrilled with it. Dex on the other hand only needed a little EVOO coaxing.
Another problem I'm coming across is finding the organs.
I have no problem with Chicken heart & liver as well as pork kidney, spleen & (heart if I want).
Variety in muscle meat is the easiest.
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Post by Celene on Apr 21, 2015 16:02:14 GMT -5
I don't think variety in organs is as important. Organs don't count as separate proteins anyway (although heart does). If you can find rabbits locally they often come with all the organs intact. My girls had rabbit liver (and unidentifiable innards) for their organ meat and absolutely loved it. Although you may want to add heart or high-taurine meat (i.e. any muscles that work hard like legs).
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Post by katt on Apr 21, 2015 21:10:18 GMT -5
The more variety in every category the better, BUT the muscle meat protein is what is most important and where you must have a bare minimum of 3. Pork and chicken for the organs is what most people are able to get easiest access to.
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Shawna
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Posts: 111
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Post by Shawna on Apr 22, 2015 0:21:08 GMT -5
That has definitely proven true for me. Yurei Avalon referred me to a place that's not too far away & reasonably priced.
By the look of it, I'm just gonna have to mix chicken in w/ anything else I give them. It's interesting that Dexter proved reluctant in the beginning of this journey & is showing more interest in more variety than Zim is. I still need to find some red meats for them though. They are both proving to be a bit stubborn in eating it (namely lamb & beef).
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Post by katt on Apr 22, 2015 1:18:53 GMT -5
By the look of it, I'm just gonna have to mix chicken in w/ anything else I give them. Wait - why? You said you can get pork and chicken organs and heart right? If you ever venture toward Seattle HT Oaktree Market has good stuff. RE need and lamb those take longer for them to get used to as they are more strongly flavored - and some just don't like lamb.
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Shawna
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Posts: 111
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Post by Shawna on Apr 22, 2015 11:18:39 GMT -5
When I first got the pork meat, spleen & kidneys, I just cut that up & added chicken heart to it & they both just took a lick, nibble, bite & walked away, which they did to the lamb as well. I added some EVOO & they just licked it off the meat.. the little pills. So I took a chicken wing w/ the bone & chopped it up & mixed that in. they ate it with the pork but they just licked the oil off the lamb & left the meat behind. I ended up tossing it. Thank you for the store! I now have another resource to check out for them!! OH by the way... I've been putting their dishes on top of an ice pack to keep it cold longer while their food is out.
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Post by katt on Apr 23, 2015 3:03:02 GMT -5
On my phon so going tl try numbers instead of bold... 1.) When I first got the pork meat, spleen & kidneys, I just cut that up & added chicken heart to it & they both just took a lick, nibble, bite & walked away, which they did to the lamb as well. I added some EVOO & they just licked it off the meat.. the little pills. - It takes time to introduce each new protein. Think of every new meat as it's own mini-switch. It often helps to hide a new protein in something they like (like chicken) and gradually increase it over a few days until they will eat the new meat all on it's own. In the long run you really need them to be able to eat other meats not mixed in with chicken for every meal. They will really be missing out on variety that way and if one ever develops a sensitivity to chicken you'd be in a really tight spot. AND they will be prone to picking out the chicken and ignoring the other meats. Ferrets are like toddlers - why would a toddler eat the broccoli on his plate when it's mixed up with candy and he can just pick out and eat the candy? You also have to bring on a little tough love. It's up to you to set the rules and teach them to accept new flavors - they can't be the ones to control their diet, YOU are the Mamma in Charge! 2.) So I took a chicken wing w/ the bone & chopped it up & mixed that in. they ate it with the pork but they just licked the oil off the lamb & left the meat behind. I ended up tossing it. - Lamb is a particularly difficult meat to introduce. Beef and lamb (red meat in general really) are really strong in flavor and take more time for most ferrets to accept. Lamb some just don't like but it's a great protein to have in the rotation. Red meat is really important to have in their rotation bc it is rich in VitB and Iron. So keep with it! Try making a little chicken soup and gradually replacing the chicken with lamb. You can do the same thing with grinds or slivers. Hide the new protein in something they know and spend a few days focusing on switching over and getting them to accept the new protein. Do this one protein at a time (some they will take to faster than others), and they will gradually get more and more used to the variety and accepting new meats. 3.) Thank you for the store! I now have another resource to check out for them!! - No problem! 4.) OH by the way... I've been putting their dishes on top of an ice pack to keep it cold longer while their food is out. Don't do this. Ice packs are not safe for ferrets. Commercial ice packs have chemicals inside that can potentially be very dangerous if they were to pierce or crack the pack. Even ice in a plastic bag they could chew on, choke on, etc the bag. Also this really isn't necessary. Remember they are designed to eat raw meat and handle the bacteria that grows on meat. In the wild they get their prey (either caught OR dead carrion that's already been out who knows how long), drag it off to their dens through dirt and moldy leaves and grass and whatever else, stash the meat in their dens, defecate/urinate on it to keep other animals away, and leave it there for varying amounts of time before eating it. Ferrets are very well equipped to handle raw meat that's been out for a while. They have very acidic stomachs that kill just about anything that passes through and their super fast digestion time means bacteria doesn't have a chance to latch on. They are FAR more likely to get bacterial issues from overgrowth of bacteria they naturally reside in their intestines and are allowed to go wild because of something throwing the gut off balance - stress, illness, etc. the chances of them getting infected from their food is very low. Also, just like you know not to eat the leftovers in the fridge that smell funny or the bread that looks moldy...ferrets are very good at instinctively telling what they can and can't handle. If a meat is too bad for them to handle, they won't eat it. Meat stays good for them a lot longer than you might suspect too. As a general rule: Soups are good 6-8hrs Grinds 8-10hrs Chunks and bones: 12-24hrs (the thicker the chunk the longer it lasts, bone in also lasts longer than boneless) Whole prey: 24-48hrs
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Shawna
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Posts: 111
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Post by Shawna on Apr 23, 2015 23:16:19 GMT -5
That was some AWESOME advice.
If they're eating a particular meat like lamb then what kind of bone do I give them. Same thing goes for beef & pork? I was thinking of getting something like chicken feet or something similar.
Suggestions?
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Post by Celene on Apr 23, 2015 23:39:12 GMT -5
Katt is a boss! Since the frankenprey calls for 7-9 bone-in meals a week, you can feed up to 4 muscle meals a week (bone requirement depends on the individual ferret but you can just judge by the poops). I usually do 7 "real" bone-in meals, and two which are a muscle meat with eggshell powder. I posted a list of possible bone-in meals on page "6" of this thread, although I usually stick to quail, rabbit and frogs legs (which shouldn't be fed more than once a week as it is very lean and does not have enough fat for frequent consumption... But my girls just adore it). Chicken feet are usually really REALLY cheap (like, $2 for 25 of them) so it can't hurt to try. Having said that, it is my understanding that most ferrets aren't big fans. One of our mentors was feeding them regularly and thought her ferrets were eating them but recently just found a giant pile of chicken feet that had all been stashed. At the point that she found them she also hadn't fed chicken feet in several months.
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Post by katt on Apr 23, 2015 23:53:44 GMT -5
Chicken feed CAN be added to boneless meals to make them "bone-in" if needed, but a variety of bone sources besides just chicken is preferred. Also like Celene said, they need a few boneless muscle meat meals each week too. - If you do chicken feet, I would smash them up a bit - I think the tough skin is often what throws them off - exposing the yummy marrow inside might help entice them, if not though remember it only counts as bone-in if they actually EAT the bone. haha
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Shawna
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Post by Shawna on Apr 24, 2015 0:36:06 GMT -5
Ah... rereading the frankenprey menu...
when dealing with the organ meat, how much would I be giving? It says 1/2 heart so if I have a pork or beef heart, I'm guessing that I want to make it the same size as 1/2 of a chicken heart?
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Post by Celene on Apr 24, 2015 0:46:11 GMT -5
No, it's a half MEAL of heart, not half a heart. So if they normally eat, say, 2 oz each per meal, you want to make sure they get 3 oz of heart per week. Because feeding "half" a meal is kind of awkward, I personally feed 3 meals a week that are 50% heart, 25% liver and 25% other organ (usually kidney or sweetbreads). Some people also feed 1 meal of heart, 1 meal of liver/organ, and one meal that is half/half. Taurine (found in hearts) is really important for ferrets and they are able to excrete excess in their urine so you don't need to worry about going over - heart is considered a muscle and not an organ for raw feeding purposes. Liver, on the other hand, is very in Vitamin A which is important for ferrets but does build up in their systems over time so you don't want to go over on that. Overall heart should be at least 10% of the diet, and liver/other organ should be maximum 10% of their diet (5% each). That's probably an overly-detailed answer, but figure extra knowledge never hurts
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