|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2015 18:23:55 GMT -5
I'm playing catch up. It's been a busy few weeks. I'll go back and reread your thread. However, to answer a couple of your last questions:
The advantages to them eating bone is to help clean their teeth. You can sprinkle bone meal on their muscle meats, but we really want them to learn to eat bones. Bones have nutrients in them, that they don't get from just muscle meat.
The average boy eats 3-4 ounces a day. A little more in the Winter, a little less in the Spring. The average girl eats about 2 ounces. A little more in the Winter, a little less in the Spring. Babies are Tummies with Teeth and will eat alot. You also usually see an increase in appetite during the initial stages of a switch.
Alot of ferrents do use Commercial Grinds. You won't get the benefits of teeth cleaning and it can be more expensive. If you decide to use grinds, you'll want to learn to brush their teeth. Gizzards can be great teeth cleaners, but not like bone. You also need to make sure that you find the right grind with the proper amount of organ/muscle meat/bone.
You seem to be doing quite well so far. (dance)
|
|
|
Post by Celene on Apr 13, 2015 18:27:55 GMT -5
First of all, you can definitely sprinkle bone meat on meat chunks to start, however only while you're trying to introduce bone because in the long run they need to crunch through bone to clean their teeth and exercise their jaw muscles. The ratio is 1/2 tsp of bonemeal per 8 oz of meat. CGR usually has the bone ground pretty fine so doesn't help for this purpose. My girls eat about 1.5-1.75 oz a day and they weigh 1.4 lbs each. I know big, active boys can eat up to 3-5 oz a day or more. I will post some more bone info in about 45 mins when I get home
|
|
|
Post by Celene on Apr 13, 2015 20:05:07 GMT -5
As promised... Bone details! First of all, bone in meats you can feed include - All poultry:
- Quail, partridge, smaller birds - all
- Chicken and cornish game hen - all except thighs (although some ferrets can chomp through those too)
- Duck, goose, turkey, bigger birds - necks and wings
[/span] [li]Rabbit - all (although the "thighs" are still a little big for my girls)[/li] [li]Frogs legs (almost fat free, so wouldn't recommend more than 1-2 times a week max)[/li] [li]small/freshwater fish[/li] [li]rodents such as rats, mice, guinea pigs (adults are nutritionally balanced and are considered whole prey, babies are considered "treats" only)[/li][/ul] I personally stick with quail for most bone-in meals, rabbit a few times a week (they're pretty lean) and frogs legs once a week. I usually do 1-2 meals of muscle with eggshell powder (since frankenprey is 7-9 bone-in a week so I always do at least 7 of "actual" bone). Cornish game hens and quail are great to start - the softest/easiest bones to introduce are wings and ribs. When I first introduced I cut the ribs individually into little "french fries". It helps to smash the bones up a bit in the beginning to make them easier for ferrets. I recently made a video on smashing bones for ferrets (when I was trying to introduce bone I was told to use a hammer which was REALLY messy and noisy and didn't even work to boot). It's my first video and not a very good one, but gives you the idea: Here's also a diagram of various poultry and their relative sizes (originally from a website instructing on turducken)
You can start by introducing 1-2 bone-in meals a week (with bonemeal on the rest) until they get used to the crunching and slowly build up. I know this is a lot of info to start, so let me know if you have any questions!
|
|
|
Post by katt on Apr 14, 2015 16:53:09 GMT -5
So, I took a look at the frankenprey weekly menu.
Any chance that I can just do stew meat sized chunks for muscle & organ meat, sprinkle bone meal on it & do that daily? That's basically what I have been doing right along w/ the soup which already has the bone meal in it.
I've been thinking about getting some cgr which I believe was ground up meat, organs & bone right? to get them going on bone & periodically giving them duck/chicken feet.
I also just bought some pork meat, kidney & spleen that I want to cut up into chunks.
How much is a ferret supposed to be eating on a daily basis anyway? Like ounces-wise? so many oz of meat, oz or organ meat, bone/bone meal daily?
www.zazzle.com/carpet_shark_t_shirts-235320241942882832No, they need to have bones. Bone-meal and powdered eggshells are not meant to be long-term bone replacements, they are just for short term use during the switch. They need the chewing action for their jaw and neck muscles, and dental health, and bones for cleaning their teeth. They also need the micronutrients and minerals that are found in bone that may be lost in bone-meal due to processing and do not occur in eggshells. Commercial Grinds can be balanced, but not all are. You will want to research brands and different mixes they carry. Some are not balanced for cats/ferrets, some contain veggies, some are muscle and bone only, no organs and hearts, some are whole animals (ideal), etc. Grinds can be a great way to add some variety to their menu though and are often a good jumping off point for moving from soup to chunks. How much they eat varies from ferret to ferret, and from season to season. Just like I don't eat as much as my SO, and eat more than my friend, ferrets also eat different amounts per each individual. They will also eat significantly more in the winter and less in the summer, and they tend to eat a lot more in the beginning of the switch and then slow down. Kits also eat far more than adults. A raw fed ferret will rarely overeat (it does happen, but is uncommon) - they should be allowed to eat as much as they want. AVERAGE amounts are 2-4oz a day for a male, 1-3oz a day for a female. Again, this varies.
|
|
Shawna
Junior Member
Posts: 111
|
Post by Shawna on Apr 15, 2015 0:05:24 GMT -5
Thinking about CGR as an introduction to bones for the boys and am looking at: Hare-Today.com
Llama ground 83% meat 10% bone 7% organ [liver, spleen, kidney]
Mutton 73% meat 17% bone 10% organ [liver, pancreas, kidney]
& Pork 82% meat 15% bone 3% organ [liver and kidney ]
Thoughts?
I've also been trying to find a replacement treat for them but they've turned their noses at freeze dried beef & shown brief (very brief) interest in freeze dried turkey.
www.zazzle.com/carpet_shark_t_shirts-235320241942882832
|
|
|
Post by Celene on Apr 15, 2015 9:29:44 GMT -5
I don't have any personal experience with Hare Today (although many of the members here use it with good reviews). As far as nutritional balance goes, the above grinds look good - although I'm not sure about how effective they'll be at introducing bone. Bones of larger animals (such as the ones above) are too hard for ferrets to eat, so chances are they're ground fine enough to just be eaten and swallowed with the rest of it. Any thoughts katt? I transitioned my girls using CGR and the chicken/turkey varieties had chunks of bone (chicken and turkey) and since they weren't attached to any meat and easy to pick out, my girls would just eat around them. I'd be left with a bowl licked clean, except for a pile of bone chunks in the middle, and more bone chunks spit out on the floor around the bowl As for treats, My girls don't go for straight FDR usually either. There are FDR treats though which are balanced and/or contain multiple meats which are more exciting than, say, just plain freeze dried chicken breast. My two favourites so far are Orijen cat treats (any) and Stella & Chewys carnivore crunch. It's also easier to introduce if you rehydrate and mash into a soup and offer it that way, since it's easier to get ferrets to taste liquid than dry food. Nova LOOOOOVES the Tundra Treats by Orijen which contain elk, quail and trout mixed together. She loves them so much I actually was able to train her to do tricks for them. I usually break it up into smaller pieces so she gets one treat total during a training session. Mocha still isn't really a huge fan of FDR unless rehydrated, so the only 'treats' she gets are salmon oil and egg. You can also take one of their favourite meats and feed slivers of it as treats. I have a little tupperware in the freezer of slivered chicken heart which I spread out before freezing so I can grab and thaw single pieces.
|
|
|
Post by katt on Apr 15, 2015 20:13:45 GMT -5
Those grinds are great, but you will need to get some heart meat. Grinds don't introduce bones. They add bone to the diet in ground form, but aren't useful for teaching them to eat bones. Sure there may be the odd less-ground chunk in there but not significant enough to really help in that regard. What it DOES do is help get them used to the meat texture (grinds are great for sneaking slivers into and progressing to chunks), and provide awesome variety. It's a great way to offer other varieties of bone-in meat when you have trouble finding whole bones locally too. Though HT also sells chunked meats too so you can get some whole bones frm them also.
|
|
|
Post by katt on Apr 15, 2015 20:18:48 GMT -5
Thoughts? I've also been trying to find a replacement treat for them but they've turned their noses at freeze dried beef & shown brief (very brief) interest in freeze dried turkey. [/p] www.zazzle.com/carpet_shark_t_shirts-235320241942882832
[/quote] SALMON OIL!!!! It will take a little time to introduce them to but is SO worth the work. I would first start by mixing it into an oil they like ( extra virgin olive oil, coconut oil, even ferretone if the others don't work - but NOT ferretvite) and slowly increase the salmon oil while decreasing the other oil. At first Koda hated salmon oil, but I mixed it with olive oil and gradually increased it. Now he will sell his furry little soul for the stuff. I keep it in a little dropper bottle that is always handy. The dropper bottle allows me to dispense it in small amounts so they don't OD on it and get raging diarrhea. And the salmon oil is super good for them - great for their skin and coats. Also keep in mind that treats are really for humans. WE like giving them treats bc they like food and we get satisfaction out of giving them little treats and presents, but animals do not need treats. These are the dropper bottles I use: www.amazon.com/Plastic-Dropping-Bottles-30ml-pack/dp/B0026K1YCK/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1429147114&sr=8-5&keywords=dropper+bottle
|
|
Shawna
Junior Member
Posts: 111
|
Post by Shawna on Apr 18, 2015 8:57:06 GMT -5
I forgot to mention that the meat portion in the CGR includes heart.
I cut the ration of soup down to 1oz & chunks to 2oz for each. Down to the point where they're eating mostly chunks now.
I bought some chickens with bone in & am planning on taking a knife or a meat tenderizer to it to break up the bones for them.
I'm not doing the soup anymore. They've been eating the chunks anywhere from 1.5-4oz daily.
|
|
|
Post by katt on Apr 18, 2015 14:32:12 GMT -5
Awesome, great progress! Will they take heart and organ chunks too? If so we need to get you started on menu making. Their diet needs to be 10% heart and 10% organ (at meat half liver, half other organs). Feeding 2 meals a day, 10% is about a meal and a half. So every week they need 1.5 meals heart, 1.5 meals organ, 7-9 meals bone-in. For the bones, smash them up really well then cut the mangled meat into chunks about the same size as what they eat now. Try hand feeding a nice marrowy piece to get them started - once they realize it's food marrow is like a nutritious candy for them.
|
|
Shawna
Junior Member
Posts: 111
|
Post by Shawna on Apr 19, 2015 13:41:08 GMT -5
When & if I ever get to the point of feeding them mice. Do they eat the fur too?
I'm actually thinking about getting a meat grinder that does bone too & buying some mice from rodentpro & running them thru the grinder. With or without fur? & How many daily especially if I run it through the grinder?
& possibly mixing it w/ chicken which I know they like. Apparently, they're not thrilled with pork. I wonder if they like lamb.
What red meats should I try?
(ps how do you put a pix on your signature)
|
|
|
Post by Celene on Apr 19, 2015 14:05:13 GMT -5
Fur is good, it's classified as "roughage" which is basically the carnivore equivalent of fibre and helps 'clean them out'.
"As it turns out, animal fiber may be extremely important in the nutrition of strict carnivores like cats. In a recent study with captive cheetahs, 14 cats were divided into one of two dietary categories – they were fed either raw, boneless beef supplemented with appropriate vitamins and minerals, or whole raw rabbits with fur.
The cheetahs were fed one of these two diets for a month. The study showed that when the cheetahs were eating the raw whole rabbit diet, there were positive changes in their fatty acid profiles and feces, and a significant decrease in production of toxic metabolic chemicals.
This is the first study of its kind to point to animal fiber as beneficial to the digestive tracts of large cats, with potentially similar functions as soluble or insoluble plant fibers."
Not directly related to ferrets, but gives you an idea.
My girls love pork, but I had to put a little salmon oil on it and cut it into slivers when I first introduced. Red meat tends to have a stronger flavour so also requires a little coaxing when introducing. Beef is a cheap/readily available option, although some ferrets do not tolerate it very well. Lamb and goat are very low in allergens and usually well-digested by ferrets. Other red meat options include bison/buffalo, kangaroo, wild boar, moose, venison, elk, etc. Duck is a really good option since (at least my) ferrets find it super tasty and it is high in fat.
To change your signature go to profile>edit profile>personal then scroll down to "signature". You can google "bbcode" to find the coding to insert a picture. A potentially easier option would be to write a draft post with what you want your signature to be, then at the bottom switch from the "preview" tab to the "bbcode" tab and copy and paste that. I don't see why that wouldn't work, although haven't tested it personally.
|
|
Shawna
Junior Member
Posts: 111
|
Post by Shawna on Apr 19, 2015 14:24:14 GMT -5
hey celene?
Do you know how many mice a ferret eats daily?
|
|
|
Post by Celene on Apr 19, 2015 14:35:00 GMT -5
Nope! I'll tag bitbyter... He raises ASF rats, which aren't quite the same thing but I think similar in size. Of course you can't feed *just* mice, you need to provide a variety of foods. I don't feed whole prey so am not really sure, but I wouldn't do more than 4-5 meals a week of mice. Also, baby mice aren't nutritionally balanced so should be fed as a treat only. Adult mice are fine as "actual" meals.
|
|
Shawna
Junior Member
Posts: 111
|
Post by Shawna on Apr 19, 2015 15:38:29 GMT -5
I'm thinking of grinding up an adult mouse for each of my boys & need to know how many per ferret on a daily basis. I also want to introduce them to lamb, goat, llama, & quail
|
|