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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2014 15:21:15 GMT -5
Yes, the last picture does look rather ratty in comparison to December's pics. You said he gained 2, almost 3 oz, right? Was this from the beginning or from Dec? It actually looks like he's lost weight again. Can you do me a favor, and get a picture of him "hanging" (from a scruffing or something similar) just so I can see the shape of his lower body.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2014 15:37:35 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2014 16:13:09 GMT -5
Alright, so I talked to Heather and she says the burnt smell is one of the main symptoms of AD (her vet even uses that as pretty much the only sign needed). We suggest one of two things, either you can do a 3 month Lupron trial, or you can implant a DES. Overall, the DES would actually be cheaper than the trial, but you will likely have to re-implant twice a year. The Lupron trial might be difficult because we don't see many symptoms of AD in him (I think you likely caught it pretty early) so you might not know if Lupron is working.
Sorry to cut this short, just got some big news at home and can't focus. I'll get back to you with more information if you need it later.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2014 17:14:36 GMT -5
Rufus has an implant. Might as well get one for Skeeter too. Time to make a vet appointment. Question? Even if only one of them has an appointment, is it better to bring them with their bondy mate so as to reduce their stress or will it just result in two stressed-out ferrets?
I did notice lately, Skeeter has been itching a lot, but not losing any hair. At first I thought it was because of shedding season - when they switch their coats. However, he didn't switch his coat at all - he's just itchy.
I hope the big news was good news. Keep me posted. Happy thoughts and dooks your way.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2014 21:14:06 GMT -5
I know you already got plenty of replies on FB, but for this thread I'll just reiterate; yes, it's usually recommended to bring a mate for them for comfort.
The news wasn't good, it was kinda life-altering in my family, but it's not anything I'm overly upset about. Basically, I saw it coming eventually.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 17:21:01 GMT -5
Ok so went to the vet today. Skeeter looks great with the exception of BG at 50. Nothing is enlarged and she sent me home with Prednisolone. I have a diabetic test kit so once each week for the next month I'm going to test his levels. She said it isn't bad low (in the 30's) but it isn't good (in the 90's) but it could be low because he didn't eat much today. He pooped and peed at the vet and she said both looked fabulous. She recommended more HT and less MPC, for the sole reason of HT doing whole ground carcass. She said the fur and feathers being included more closely resembles what they would eat in the wild. She 100% supports the raw diet. Best small pet vet I've ever seen. Total ferret expert. Loves them. Specializes in small furries. Oh, she also said I should get some OTC melatonin? Where do I get that and what brands are recommended? Started putting slivers of heart in their food. Rufus and Trigger successfully ate the slivers. Skeeter did fine until he realized what was happening. Candy doesn't seem to like any food I serve lately Hope you're doing ok. Talk to you soon.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 18:43:00 GMT -5
Okay, I just had a convo with the other mentors. Based on the BG alone you should be getting him on either diazoxide or prednisolone immediately (70 is the cutoff for insu, anything under it should be an immediate diagnosis). Also, enlarged parts doesn't necessarily mean he's in the clear, many ferrets are Adrenal without enlarged glands. Melatonin won't prevent it, it just masks symptoms (which ends up being a waste of money), Lupron and DES both help fight the disease/slow the progression of Adrenal (although they will never reverse it). Also, unless he's doing a fast for testing (4 hours without food), he will need more frequent meals to keep his BG up on a regular basis, he should be eating every 4-6 hours, even if it's just a little. Edit: This was the reply I had written to our FB chat before realizing you had posted here. So the fact that she sent you home with Pred is good. We still feel you should consider Lupron or DES as the base, and if you want extra "help" melatonin can go along with them, but won't do much on its own. Also, another issue with melatonin is that it needs to be given continuously without error (always at the same time, no missing, etc). As for his BG results, they need to have fasted for 4 hrs before the test to get accurate results, so the lack of appetite doesn't really matter either way; if it's low, it's low. Definitely test him weekly. Having a raw-supporting vet is so useful My vet supports it as well, but he still recommended I feed a "supplement" recipe along with raw which I don't do. It was mostly plant material and unnecessary, but he's still pretty good I think. Melatonin should be available in supplement sections of most stores with pharmacies. I used to get it at walmart in the vitamin isle back when I took it for my insomnia. Liquid versions would be best, I don't know if there's any particularly better brands though. I think that was all I wanted to say lol
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 18:43:40 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 19:36:06 GMT -5
I asked for an implant but she said she wants to get his BG under control first. I'll read that link later today.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2014 9:29:17 GMT -5
OK, I read the article. Good information. I wonder if Skeeter had Insulinoma all along, but his kibble diet was masking it. Since kibble is mostly carbs, the body would have digested those carbs and produced extra sugars, which would counter the extra insulin produced by the pancreas. I think because of that, he wouldn't have shown symptoms and BG counts would have been higher at the vet due to the extra sugars produced by the carbs. Now that he's on the proper diet, with no carbs, his BG is crashing. I say this because I went through the same thing with my dad and his Diabetes. They had him on high levels of Insulin because of his BG results in the office. Of course, he wasn't diet compliant and ate sugar and carbs all the time. When he was released into my care from the hospital after a stroke, I started cooking all of his meals and administering his insulin. He was eating healthy with me, and with the high dose of Insulin, it dropped his BG too low. He was no longer eating the garbage that balanced his BG against the dosage of insulin prescribed. Anyway... I'm very angry at the universe for imparting these horrible diseases on wonderful beings. Back to the ferrets: 0.2ML 2x daily is the dosage of Pred I'm required to give him. I got it in Skeeter this morning via scruff and squirting the syringe into the back of his mouth/throat. Is there a better way to do this? It smells like penicillin, which I remember having to take for strep throat, and if it tastes like that, then it is disgusting. Skeeter hated it to the point of thrashing in the scruff. I'm worried he's going to hurt himself trying to get out of the scruff and/or that I'm going to stress him out. As we all know, stress impacts health. I want him to be happy, healthy and stress free and this Pred is going to stress him out. Please don't think I will go all softy and not administer it. I will force it down his throat if I have to, but if there is a better way, I'm all ears. Please let me know. My poor baby.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2014 14:18:32 GMT -5
You've got some of it right, but there's some parts that need clarification. The sugar and carbs in kibble create spikes in BG while stimulating the insulin production, which creates rapid drops in BG (this is what causes insulinoma crashes and seizures), whereas raw, which is digested fast, but metabolized much slower gives a much more even BG level. When a ferret eats raw meat, they do not get that carbohydrate spike in BG that stimulates insulin. This means their insulin, and thus their BG, remains much more stable. Still, with raw, insulinomic ferrets do drop below normal, but it's a much smaller and more even drop, rather than a drastic one, which keeps them steady and helps prevent crashes (they still can and do happen though! Especially with severe cases of insulinoma).
There is a chance that his insulinoma was just in the beginning of its stages while he was at the rescue (meaning he might have been at, say, a 90-70 BG there), then it continued to drop over the past few months. Insulinoma starts at an unrecognizable level until the cancerous cells multiply enough to cause drops and lower BG levels, it's very likely that he's had the disease for some time, but it was in its young stages so it never presented itself when he got tested previously. If his appetite has been lacking more than it was on kibble then that could have helped progress the disease. If he was eating a ton of kibble previously it might have kept his BG from dropping too low at any given point, but with raw if he's not completely digging in and eating his normal fill then it could cause BG drops. On the FB group you mentioned adding FDR to his diet to help him adjust to raw, as long as you keep it hydrated I don't see any harm in this. The only problem is you can't feed it dry as it can cause issues with his insu due to dehydration levels. It is very important to keep insulinomic ferrets hydrated. That said, as long as you're feeding soup still, I don't see harm in giving him more options to choose from. Some ferrets love FDR, others don't care for it at all, if Skeeter likes it, I'd start mixing it with his soup to entice him to eat more soup.
As for taking his pred, (I had said this on FB, but I'm going to reiterate it for the sake of this thread) try sandwiching it between two layers of salmon oil in the syringe. It doesn't always work for everyone, but some people have found it helps disguise the taste. It might be a good idea to buy a separate syringe and start giving their oils and treats in that to get them all used to the syringe so they don't run in fear every time they see it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2014 16:52:25 GMT -5
I did see your post. Reading like crazy today. I will try it but Skeeter doesn't like Salmon Oil. I haven't found a treat he does like so I'm not sure it would work. When the Salmon oil is on the other ferrets, he doesn't even try to lick it. I tried to give it as a reward after the Pred and he turned his nose away. He doesn't seem to like the smell of it.
My poor boy. I'm so sad for him.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2014 17:31:08 GMT -5
Oh okay, well that won't work very well if he doesn't like it lol. Does he like olive oil or coconut oil at all?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2014 10:11:25 GMT -5
To date, Skeeter has not shown interest in anything. He's not even into the Petromalt the shelter lady sent me home with. No olive oil. I've tried every different protein and I think the days he eats a lot, were days when he was just super hungry. I've basically been force feeding him for a week now. My scruff & stuff is almost identical to the one that Amee posted on FB yesterday. Scruff and put the food in front of his nose and he starts to eat. When he's eating on his own, I let go of the scruff. If he stops eating, I scruff again and repeat. Today, he fully showed hind end weakness. He wasn't doing that before we went to the vet. Now that I'm giving him Pred, its like he's giving up on me. He doesn't want to eat. He doesn't want to play. Before, he would come out, eat a little. I'd spoon feed him more and then he'd play in the pool or the rice box, or with Trigger. Now, he's not interested. When I come into the enclosure with food, he walks towards me with hope in his little eyes. Then I see the disappointment when I put the raw down - he doesn't like it. Even bigger disappointment and fear when I scruff him because he already knows the Pred is coming. I feel like I'm destroying his quality of life just to prolong his life. What is better, to live longer and be miserable or to have a shorter but happier life? I need to find something he will eat otherwise, I'm sure I'm going to lose him. He's already giving up on me.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2014 12:59:09 GMT -5
Unfortunately, the next month or so will be a bit difficult because it's a bit of a "trial" stage while you and your vet find the right dosage of pred according to his weekly BG readings. Until he's on the right dose he won't feel very good, but once it's right he should perk up and have energy again. It's likely that he had a low BG every since you got him (for the most part), so during his drops he was very inactive this whole time. Hopefully once he adjusts to the pred you'll see a new Skeeter. The days where he eats a lot might be the days that his pred reacted just right and increased his appetite. That is ideal and will be what you want to look for, as it is what your goal with the pred dosage will be. (Note: do not adjust dosage without your vet's approval - just need to make that clear for you and anyone who might read this in the future). He's probably been sleeping a lot (and cuddling the others) for comfort and because sleeping is crucial to heal. If he's not too squirmy about it, try letting him rest in your lap from time to time. It could help your bond and make him more comfortable with you. Food options from our FB chat: Oxbow carnivore care, pure meat and broth baby food, egg with ground shell or bone meal, FDR; nature's variety instinct raw bites for cats (long one, but it's important it's exactly that formula), feline natural freeze dried, primal freeze dried feline, stella and chewy's feline formulas (blue bag), and if you need a kibble; wysong ferret epigen 90. Two switching threads: holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/3166/tablefor3ferrets-switching-thread-hurricanekatt?page=1 (this one is with an insu baby from the get-go.) holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/6976/yossarians-switching-thread-hurricanekatt(I know Yossarian had insu ferrets, but I'm not sure if they got insu during or after the switch.)
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