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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2013 10:59:21 GMT -5
I can't figure out how to get photos to link properly here, so here they are in a dropbox. Raw Swith PhotosStarting Weights: Teddy 2 lbs 9.5 oz Bunny 2 lbs 9.5 oz Daisy 1 lb 13.5 oz
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 11:02:44 GMT -5
So this morning, my husband decided to feed our guys their old soup (kibble, babyfood, water--recipe above).
Everyone is bouncing and dooking and happy, 90 minutes later.
On the meat soup they all are going to sleep within 10-15 minutes and no one wants to play.
Is it like they just ate a candy bar? The kibble in our soup is Orijen, Epigen, Wellness and Nature's Variety.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 17:42:52 GMT -5
The Dropbox works perfect thanks! Yes I would say kibble could be compared to a candy bar. Even though those brands you are feeding are the best as far as kibble goes, they are all grain-free... But not sugar free. Have a look at your ingredient lists and you'll notice that they all have fruits in there somewhere. Fruit is a natural source of sugar and sugar = energy. So yes the kibble soup might make them more hyper initially... But then just like us eating a candy bar, they will soon have a sugar crash and go to sleep. With the raw, they are going through a detox right now. Essentially clearing all of the yucky stuff out of their system and bringing healthy stuff in. Have you ever talked to a human on a detox? You feel pretty crummy and sleepy for the first little bit! But the thing with the raw is, once they are on it fully and the detox is over, you will notice that they have more energy overall and that will be more active for longer periods. So totally normal right now, just keep getting them used to the raw soup as many times a day as you can! Once they are all eating the raw soup consistently we can remove the kibble entirely and they will start to get more energy. How thick are you making the raw soup right now by the way?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 22:18:53 GMT -5
Tonight the 3 of them ate the equivalent of 4 ice cubes collectively.
Bunny and Daisy chowed down. Daisy is surprising the heck out of me. I'll post a link to a video here tomorrow. They're so excited when they're eating that they're shivering.
Ted ate about 4 spoonfuls of soup and about the equivalent of 1 off the plate, so about the same. He's not balking and running away now, which is good.
This batch is rather thin, about the consistency of spaghetti sauce. I'll be making another batch on Sunday, and I'll make it a little thicker.
On another note: Tomorrow we're getting a 4th ferret. His name is Rocco, and he's been a frequent guest here at the B&B. His owner says she's going to be traveling more and can't give him the attention he needs, but I suspect that his illness--not sure if it's insulinoma or something else, but he's on Pred and another medication--has worsened and she doesn't want to pay the vet bills.
We love him or we'd just foster him for our shelter, which doesn't have room for him. He's about 5 or 6.
Right now he's eating our old soup recipe, but with 8-in-1. My question is this:
Do you think beginning to switch him right away will be too stressful?
We won't be introducing him to our ferrets for at least a week (they'll be caged side by side), and in the past we've found that having them share a plate initiates tolerance, if not some bonding.
But, I also don't want to stress him out.
What are your thoughts? He's a very laid back mellow guy, but he's always been an only ferret.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2013 18:29:02 GMT -5
That is fantastic! I'm happy to hear they are all eating the soup so well now! Oh my goodness I remember the quivering, my little girls did it when they first tried raw soup too, it is absolutely adorable! Just wait until you are giving them chunks of meat and bone and they start stashing them and playing tug of war with them. Raw food truly is a form of enrichment in itself As for your new addition, congratulations! Pred is usually used to treat insulinoma. Definitely find out for sure though and let me know. Insulinoma ferrets can be switched to raw and it actually helps prevent crashes, but we do have to be more cautious about making sure they are eating enough food when starting out, so as your mentor, knowing what he has for sure will help a lot. Since he has stayed with you so much, I am assuming he isn't too stressed out by your place and is used to it. I would give him a couple days to settle though and find out whether or not he has insulinoma for sure. Maybe also get him vet checked yourself to make sure he is otherwise healthy. An ear mite swab is always a good idea too before introducing him to your ferrets. But then you can definitely start offering him raw soup pretty quickly otherwise. And sharing a plate of raw soup with his new friends is a very good bonding experience too. Let me know what you find out about him!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2013 15:24:28 GMT -5
Good morning! Weights have not changed at all on our 3 originals. Rocco's starting weight is 2 lbs 1.3 oz. His previous owner brought his medical records and he does have insulinoma. His BG was last checked on 04/12/13and is was 64, not great. He's also taking Diazoxide, which apparently is also a blood glucose stabilizer. I also learned this from his med records: Until he was seen in Feb 13, his owner had been feeding him nothing but Cheerios. . Poor baby. He went to the vet because he was losing his balance and had a lesion on his right shoulder and around his anus that turned out to be MCTs. The vet thought he might possibly be blind. He first came to stay with us in mid-May, and apparently had had an insulinomic seizure a few days before--which we didn't know. His owners are deaf and communication was usually by email or through a phone interpreter. She was feeding Marshalls at that first stay, and I sent her a long email with links re better kibbles. I also gave her our old soup recipe, and she started giving him 2-3 ice cubes 2x daily. His energy was much better the 2nd time we saw him. When she dropped him off with his cages and other stuff yesterday, there were no dishes attached to his cage, which tells me he was generally without food and water most of the time. I'm not suggesting these owners were abusive. I just think they were inexperienced and perhaps not inclined to do research. I can't judge--our first ferrets regularly got Fruit Loops and raisins as snacks, plus Marshall's kibble. We lost one to insulinoma. We didn't change to Totally Ferret LTV until about 2 years ago, and just in the last 6 months changed to the mix we feed now. But I also know that Rocco is going to do so much better with us. SO much better. We know so much more now, and I think having the B&B and taking care of 2-6 groups besides our own most days has been an amazing education. I decided to see if Rocco would eat the meat soup. I remembered that he'd eat straight baby food happily. He chowed down and ate about 1 oz on his own and maybe another .5 oz by finger and spoon. Update on our ferrets: Daisy and Bunny had a competition on who could finish the plate first. I'm feeding 4 oz of soup. Teddy ate about .5 oz on his own with a Ferretone drizzle (he refused the undoctored version), and then about 1 oz via spoon. Their poops are definitely disgusting--kind of loose and really smelly. I know that's to be expected for a while. I'm making my 2nd batch of soup today. I'm actually surprised how fast we're going through it. 4 cups of our old soup would last us about 2.5 weeks. We went through 4 cups of the new soup in 8 days. This batch I'll make a little chunkier. Teddy will definitely balk at it, but the girls may be OK. We'll see. If it needs to be thinned I'll add some extra water.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2013 16:34:41 GMT -5
Oh, and BTW Rocco and Teddy have an appointment with our vet on Thursday. I want to get Ted's baseline blood glucose because I'm feeling a bit suspicious about his lack of energy. Better to have that and find out he's fine. Rocco will get a full evaluation, including for meds.
The vet Rocco was going to is the same that many of our clients go to in the northern metro-area, and he's not particularly aggressive with treatment. He won't do des implants either. One of our guests now is so obviously adrenal--she's lost most of her fur, and even though I sent her owner, who is a scientist, links about the research and results, she has not been able to convince him to do it. Unfortunately, she's also one of those "the doctor knows best" kind of people, and it breaks my heart because this little girl is AWESOME and she deserved better.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2013 18:46:43 GMT -5
Hey, thanks for all the information. I'm sorry to hear about Rocco's unfortunate past. Nothing but Cheerios... That is so crazy, he is lucky he survived. I am so glad he is with you now.
Since his insulinoma is unstable at this point, make sure Rocco always has a kibble in his cage that he will eat. If he will eat your kibble mix then that's even better, if he will only eat what he came with then feed him that. As long as he always has kibble he will eat present in the cage.
I'm assuming the meat soup you have him was the raw soup? Or was it your old soup recipe? Either way, you can definitely offer him raw. We just want to make sure that he gets it right after his kibble is taken away and that his kibble goes back right afterwards. He might get a bit of tummy upset but our main concern is the insulinoma.
Let me know how the vet appointment goes, it sounds like he does need a medication adjustment for sure.
Wow that vet sounds terrible. Does he treat adrenal at all? Like even with Lupron? A lot of the Vets here don't carry the des but they at least treat adrenal.
As for you guys, that's fantastic that they are still doing so well. Let me know how the thicker soup goes!
How much soup would you say each of them are eating a day right now? I want to try determine whether or not they are ready to go off their kibble and eat just soup.
Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 0:15:02 GMT -5
Rocco ate 1/4 cup of raw soup tonight all by himself. Yay!
I made this next batch of soup much thicker, more like pudding. They start on it tomorrow night, so we'll see. It's easier to thin it out.
I gave the 3 of them 1/2 cup, and Ted ate about 1 oz on his own, which is just under what he'd normally eat of our old soup. The girls ate the rest.
So, I'd say Daisy and Bunny are each eating 3 oz a day and Teddy is eating about 2 oz a day. We've removed the kibble bowl that's on the top part of their Ferret Nation cage, so they need to go all the way down the ramp to eat. They hardly eat kibble (Teddy mostly digs in it)--maybe 1/2 cup every 3 days between the 3 of them--since we started on our old soup.
And: I made our cat a different texture of raw--basically the texture of canned cat food. Bunny chased her off the plate and ate about 3 bites. She's our gifted child.
I think that vet does treat adrenal, but from the ferrets we've seen he waits for a long time. One guy who we had fro a week is also clearly adrenal because of his hair loss pattern, but the vet told the owners he thinks it's seasonal shedding--from the base of his tail and his shoulder blades. Weird.
I go back to work tomorrow and have a client meeting after that, so I may not be able to post tomorrow. If not, I'll catch up on Tuesday.
Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 21:27:59 GMT -5
So, I'm becoming concerned about Ted. He's really not feeling well. He's got really sticky/runny poops and low energy. The girls and Rocco are doing great. Ted is not happy. He ate some soup tonight but only because I insisted. When he's out, he's taken to sleeping behind the dryer instead on the myriad sleepy things we have out.
He's going to the vet on Thursday anyway. But in the meantime, do you have ideas?
He just doesn't feel great.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2013 13:47:47 GMT -5
Hi Lynn, thanks for the updates. As for Ted, it sounds to me like he might have a bit of a virus. I'm sure you know by now that ferrets can catch the human flu. Has anyone in your household been sick lately? Do your ferrets have contact with any of the boarder's ferrets? Even if they don't you could have very well passed something from them to Ted. Keep an eye on the other ones to make sure they don't catch it too. That being said, just like with humans, when one person catches a virus, not everyone else around them always does. Regardless of what he has now, the best thing you can do is to keep him well hydrated, keep getting him to eat the raw soup as it does an excellent job of this and get him checked out on Thursday. That being said do keep a close eye on him. With ferrets there is always the possibity of a floating blockage where they can still poop but its runny or skinny and they don't feel well but aren't totally blocked up yet. Do you have any canned pumpkin? If not I would pick some up. Just plain canned pumpkin, not the seasoned kind. Try to get him to eat a couple teaspoons. Put oil on it, hide it in the soup, syringe it, whatever works. The pumpkin will help push out a blockage if there is one (most likely a hairball if you don't think he has eaten any objects) and if not is will help firm up the icky stool anyways. It sounds like everyone else is doing great though. Definitely keep feeding Rocco the raw soup, it's much better for insulinoma so let him eat as much as he wants. That's great that you have removed most of their kibble! Do you feel up to removing the kibble completely during the day? And feeding them raw soup all day and then putting a little bit of kibble back at night as well as some raw soup at night? Or would you rather wait until you get TEd checked out? Totally up to you
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2013 10:42:46 GMT -5
So, Teddy's feeling a bit better. He's still having some pretty nasty/loose/watery poops, but today he got into the dig box.
We don't mix ferrets at the B&B. They're actually kept in 8x8 Suites that are made from plywood, so they're really separated. We use medical-grade disinfectant in cleaning the cages between clients and Lysol-like disinfectant during their stays. And disposable mop pads so we don't spread stuff between each suite. We talked to shelters and other boarding places before we started, and I think we have good practices. We've been doing it since January 2012, and (knock wood) have not had any illness.
I'll get some pumpkin at the store today. We used to put it in their soup, but then I read that it should be used sparingly. I should be able to get him to eat some.
Updates:
No weight changes (even Teddy, which makes me feel better). Better energy--even Daisy, who was really showing her age 6 months ago, is playing. She still doesn't have the energy of our energizer Bunny, but at least she's not going to bed right after eating anymore.
Ted still needs the Ferretone kicker to eat the soup. I'm talking about maybe 1/8 tsp. Today he ate about 1 oz of raw soup. The girls ate the rest, pretty equally. (There was about 5 oz between them.)
I took the kibble out completely last night. For the day, we put in 1 bowl on the bottom half of their Ferret Nation cage so we can see how much they're still eating, and so they actually have to move to get at it, rather than just snacking. (Their hammies are on the top level.)
News: We found out yesterday that we're getting a kit from Linda Gurule. We'd been on the waiting list. I'm torn about this because 5 ferrets is a lot. We hadn't heard from her, and we made the assumption that we would not be getting a kit when we took in Rocco. But, we probably would have taken him in anyway.
Is it proper to start the kit out on raw right away? And should we start with soup? Not sure when we're getting him/her--maybe October?
Also: when should I start moving to grind instead of soup?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2013 15:14:22 GMT -5
I'm glad he is feeling better, hopefully that means whatever it was it is passing on its own. Yes it's true that pumpkin should be fed sparingly, which is why I haven't mentioned it until now (whereas we used to advocate for raw feeders putting it in their diet right away). However, having them willing to eat pumpkin is super important for things like runny stools, constipation (yes it works on both diarrhea and constipation!), shedding session to prevent hair balls, and of course blockages and suspected blockages. It definitely shouldn't be fed daily like we used to recommend though. Hopefully given him it now will help with the stool though. That's awesome, it sounds like everyone is doing really well! As for moving from the soul stage to the grind stage, you can definitely start to progress towards that now. The best way to transition is to do 2 things: 1) slowly reduce the amount of water you put in the soup so it ends up more like a gravy than a soup 2) start adding tiny little slivers of chicken meat into the soup. About the size of the crescent on one of your fingernails. If they do well with the thicker soup and the slivers of meat, what we will do is slowly make the soup thicker, and slowly increase the size of the pieces of meat in it. As for Ted, if he needs the ferretone kicker then by all means let him have it, whatever works to get them to switch! However... Since ferretone isn't the greatest for them, what you can do is start mixing the ferretone with a little bit of either extra virgin olive oil (EVOO) or a little bit of salmon oil. These are much better for them as they don't contain the carcinogenic preservatives that ferretone does. Let me know how much kibble they end up eating. Honestly if its not much at all, and they are all eating the soup consistently now during the day and night, then you can remove the kibble entirely. Just keep an eye out to make sure everyone is stilling eating enough soup during the day and at night. Especially Ted. As for the baby....that is exciting and scary news! Whether or not you can handle 5 ferrets is your choice completely. I actually had 6 ferrets myself, but unfortunately I just had to move away from home and couldn't find a landlord willing to let me bring all 6 (nor could I afford to care for them, live on my own, and pay for university), so I rehomed 3 and now only have 3. Honestly there isn't a huge different between 4 and 5 ferrets. Obviously there is one more mouth to feed, one more litter box to clean and one more vet bill to pay, but if you think you can handle all of those things, then I would say go for it. Kits are SUPER easy to switch to raw. Definitely give the kit the soup as well, as it is important to start all ferrets on soup since this is the only thing they will often eat when they are sick. But you can honestly offer a kit chunks of meat and chopped up chicken wings right away, and they usually happily chow down on them. Let me know if and when you do get the kit and we can add him/her into the switch. Also let me know how the vet appointment goes for Ted and Rocco And give adding the slivers of chicken into the soup, making it thicker, and offering Ted (and the others too) some olive oil or salmon oil. Salmon oil is better for them because its made from a meat protein. However it causes stinky stools so I usually say limit it to once or twice a week. Extra virgin Olive oil can be given every day or every second day (usually better). No more than 1/4 tsp daily of oil, or 1/2 tsp every other day , per ferret though as we don't want to lube up their insides too much. Let me know if you have any questions
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2013 19:23:50 GMT -5
Hey, any updates?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2013 14:49:08 GMT -5
Hey, sorry for disappearing. It's been a busy couple of days.
So: Vet visit.
Rocco's blood sugar was 57, so our vet upped his pred to 2x daily, and we'll see how he feels. He's still eating a ton of soup--as much as our other 3 combined. I think he's already feeling better because this morning, he actually did some war dancing and rough housing, which I've never seen him do in the 6 months we've known him.
Teddy's feeling better. His poops have firmed up and he's taking less coaxing to get him to eat his soup.
I made a batch of soup with chicken thighs (I had 10 lbs) instead of breasts, and it left some chunks in there. Bunny and Daisy chewed them up once they figured out they were edible. I made another batch that turned out thinner (with breasts). They're still collectively eating 4 oz twice a day. They're hardly eating any kibble at all, so I think I'll try removing it all together this weekend.
We tried introducing Rocco and Teddy last night, and Rocco was VERY aggressive. Ted started out by sniffing, and then went to Rocco's head/neck and started licking him. Rocco bit him on the nose, didn't draw blood, but definitely hurt Ted's feelings.
We also have a very sick little girl guest here--she's always been tiny, but she's lost 2.5 oz since she's been here. Her owners are in Russia. She's very adrenal and untreated (I don't think their vet does DES implants.) We've been force-feeding her diluted baby food and that's stressed her out too. She's down to 15 oz, from 1 lb 2.5 oz (we always weigh the ferrets when they first come). It's scary--she's probably a bit depressed too, so we're giving her extra TLC.
I made enough soup to get us through the week, and the next one I'm going to try to make chunkier with slivers to see what happens.
Question: Should I add in other proteins? It's been all chicken so far.
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