Emz247's Switching Thread/Sherry

[Heather]

Name: Emma
HF Forum Username: Emz247

1. Where did you first learn about natural diets for ferrets?

Research and fellow ferret owners.

2. Please describe the type of diet you would like assistance in switching your ferret(s) to. Be sure to include if you are interested in feeding whole prey (live or frozen-thawed) and if you are wanting to FULLY switch to a natural diet or PARTIALLY. If you are unsure what kind of diet you want to put your ferrets on, please express that and we can help you find the best type of natural diet for your ferret.

Full switch to natural diet. Mainly frankenprey with some whole prey – mice, rabbit, DOC’s, quail (all frozen-thawed)

3. Why are you interested in switching your ferrets to a natural diet?

I believe a natural diet will be much better for my ferrets. I have one ferret Gizmo who has IBS.

4. Do you understand that switching your ferret to a natural diet can be a lengthy, arduous process? Its not an overnight switch. It can be a commitment of several weeks or even months. Your HF Mentor will be more then happy to assist you in switchng your ferret(s) to a natural diet, but you need to be equally as commited. If you aren't willing to tough out a potentially lengthy switching process, or if you have major life changes approaching (baby on the way, moving, starting school, getting married/divorced, etc) then it might be a better idea to wait on switching your ferret's diet until you have more time. Are you willing to make the commitment?

Absolutely.

5. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names? Ages? Genders? Do they have any health problems? Are they overweight? Underweight? How long have you had each ferret for?

5 ferrets – all have come from ferret rescues as kits so I have had them all their lives.

Zebedee – albino hob, 4 years old (5 in May 2013), has an intolerance to chicken in the past so not been fed chicken for years, overweight this winter, never been so before.

Gizmo – albino hob (blood brother to Zebedee), 4 years old (5 in May 2013). Has IBS with two recurrences of e-coli (dominating the gut flora). Currently on predislone – been on this for 2 weeks, half tablet once a day, now starts ½ tablet every other day for a week. This is to see if we can calm the gut from his last (second) bout of e-coli for which he had been on broad spectrum antibiotics. Not over or underweight but I would feel happier if he gained a little as he has no excess winter weight.

Pixie – sandy jill, 3 years old (4 in May), no health problems (fingers crossed), normal weight (no excess winter weight)
Smudge – silver mitt jill, 3 years old (4 in June), no health problems (fingers crossed), normal weight.

Jasmine – polecat jill, 3 years old (4 in July/Aug), no health problems (fingers crossed), normal weight, always a slinky thing.

6. What diet do you currently feed your ferrets? (Please include all treats, supplements, etc)

Mix of ferret kibbles – Vitalin, James Wellbeloved, Alpha, Nature Selection
Ferretone for nail clipping - however now using fish oil
Ferrevite for Gizmo to take his tablets
Beapher Malt Paste for hair balls
Raw meat – rabbit, mice, DOC’s, beef, pork, lamb, heart (ox and lambs mainly), liver (mainly chicken)
Homemade dried meat – beef
Raw Egg


7. Have you ever tried to switch your ferrets to a natural diet in the past? If yes, what happened?

Not entirely, they have always had access to kibble but I have worked on increasing the amount of meat they are eating such as only having raw meat available when they come in to the house for play times in the evenings.

Since Sunday 20th January 2013 I have taken away kibble and they are on soup (as per recipe on the forum) and chunks of meat.

They are eating the following;

Zebedee - soup and chunks
Gizmo - chunks only
Pixie - soup only
Smudge - soup and chunks
Jasmine - soup and chunks

Sun
Head end half of rabbit cut into small chunks to encourage Pixie to eat chunks as well as soup and access to soup (made as per forum recipe). I put kibble in overnight as was nervous Gizmo hadn't eaten much in day.

Mon
2 lambs hearts chopped into chunks and small slivers to entice Pixie.
Access to soup

Tue
16oz beef chopped into chunks and small slivers to entice Pixie.
Access to soup

Will be leaving half (bottom end) of rabbit in their cage overnight - again cut into chunks and slivers.



8. What additional information about yourself or your ferrets would you like to share?

I live in Bristol, England, UK. I adore my ferrets, they are my world and I want to give them the best diet I can. At present they all eat meat but to varying amounts. My biggest worry is my sandy jill Pixie who is very picky about meat and I worry about her getting (well all of them) having a balanced diet.

9. How often during the week do you have access to a computer?

Most days, depending on work schedule for time.

10. Please post a picture of each of your ferrets (if possible).

Hi and welcome to the mentoring program. In a little while your mentor (Sherry) will introduce herself and you can get started on a new adventure in natural ferret care and diets. Please remember to post regularly (daily or as per arranged with your mentor) so that your mentor can assist you move along safely in this adventure. Also note there may have been some changes in the application and how you should post so please review these before proceeding. If you have any questions feel free to either ask your mentor or any of the admins. If you experience computer difficulties or are going to be away, please notify your mentor and most of all relax and have fun . Your mentor is here to help you on this journey.
ciao

[Sherry]

Hello there! I'm Sherrylynne, and I'll be your mentor for their switch
First, a little about me. I'm 54, and have my own housecleaning business here in Calgary Alberta. I have 4 cats, ranging in age from 11 yrs, to 19(only one would eat raw, unfortunately ). I also have 8 ferrets. Boris and Vincent(rip) came first, two brothers, a sable and albino. Then Sinnead(rip). I got her when she was 4. She passed at almost the age of 8, had adrenal for 3 years, treated with lupron for 2 of those.
After that came my first deaf ferret, Lucrezia. A marked DEW. Then two foster ferrets, whom we fell in love with and adopted- Zeus(DIP) and Athena(DIP), both two years old at that time. Both were adrenal, and on lupron until they passed from adrenal related lymphomas at the age of 5.
After that, a little abused ferret we called Willow. She was the worst fear biter I've had, although now she's become a sweetie . Then, Emily. 1 month younger than Willow, and those two have bonded strongly. She's the only one Willow wasn't terrified of.Suki is the last one, I swear! She was a little 8 month old darling the pet store was having a hard time selling, so were getting ready to send her back!
While transitioning the first four, Boris was my hold out. EVERYTHING I gave him was poison, in his mind . Worst little drama queen I've seen yet . Twisting to get away, gagging, retching- he did all of it! Then one day- he ate it! Every single piece on the plate ! Those four haven't looked back.
The next two for transitioning were the fosters. Until we adopted them, I could only supplement with raw. So in order not to cause unnecessary tummy upsets(mixing kibble and raw too closely can cause some problems- more about that later), I'd give them raw one day, and kibble on a different day. So, by the time we adopted, they had no problem with 100% raw diet.
With Willow, I brought her home, and she flatly refused to eat the totally ferret kibble, so I went back to the pet store and got her a small bag of the crap they were feeding them there, and brought it home. I tried to give her some, but she just upset the dish. So- I tried her with some chicken breast. She ate it up! Hasn't had kibble since . Emily came to us as a raw fed ferret, so no issues there. Suki was another kibble head, but caging her in the daytime with Miss Emily showed her how to eat raw. And now- we've added Mr. Frodo, who essentially switched himself second day he was here
That's me and mine in a nutshell

The reason I started looking a raw feeding was something my vet said to me. I was, at the time, giving them small pieces of fruit for treats. She told me that was VERY bad for them, and in fact, some studies have started to link early feeding of sugars with insulinoma later in life. So- I started thinking. Kibbles are full of carbs. It's all those grains/veg/fruits in them. Those are converted to sugars by the body. To me then, sugar= potential insulinoma.
So, I started checking out various diets. I had no idea what an obligate carnivore was at the time. I found out! Not much wonder there was soooo much poop in the box! I may as well have been tossing my money in there. They can't process anything that's not meat based! So I feed meat
Their fur is softer, their energy levels are amazing- no mad rushes then crashing. Even my three year old's teeth are amazing. No plaque whatsoever Healing is faster, and if they do get ill, they have more reserves to rely on than when they were just kibble fed!
And there is a LOT LESS POOP!!!! Yay!
I'm looking forward to helping your little ones get on a much healthier diet, and having fun while we're at it
We have now adopted 4 more ferrets from the local rescue, bringing our numbers back up to 10 again 7m old Cody as well as a bonded trio of 2yr old males, Judge, Indie, and Odin(also adrenal).
All are also now fully raw fed
Okay, as you have one with definite IBD(IBS) as well as one who is sensitive to chicken- how are their stools on what they are eating? How are they on raw compared to kibble? On the individual meats? I notice poor Gizmo has had ecoli twice and is now on pred? What has this done for his stools?
Sorry for the barrage of questions, but this will give me a better insight into how he tolerates a variety of things.
My Boris was also IBD, except we couldn't get his under control. Lamb was virtually the only thing that wouldn't cause a flair up for him.

[Deleted]

Hi Sherry, great to hear your story.

Apologies for the delay in replying, I have been away on holiday the last week. My mum has been ferret sitting and has been giving them soup three to four times a day (morning, lunch, early evening and late evening) with access to meat chunks/slivers. They have then been given their kibble overnight but she didn’t think they had touched the kibble – normally there are lots of crumbs, on weighing, it looks like 4g of kibble was eaten (or stashed?) the first night she left it in overnight for them.

So a quick update on where they all are / stages we are at and then I’ll answer your questions.

Zebedee – will eat soup by himself and chunks of meat. He has wacked the weight on of late which is very unusual for him as he has previously always been on the lean side. He has had a scan at the vets to check, and the vet thinks it is just fat. I am not happy with the amount of weight he is carrying so am going to try and get him out walking on his harness to burn off some fat.

Pixie – will eat soup by herself – most enthusiastic soup eater of them all – she will take slivers/chunks of meat from the bowl but just stashes them, rarely eats them but has on occasion.

Smudge – will eat soup by herself and slivers/chunks of meat.

Jasmine – will eat soup by herself and slivers/chunks of meat.

Gizmo – won’t eat soup by himself, if I hold him still he will eat from the spoon but has an urge to stash – hence the holding him still so he has to swallow. He doesn’t dislike the soup, but will only eat it if I am holding him still and offering on a spoon. He will eat chunks of meat, he prefers this to soup.

The soup is thick and a little chunky.

So, we have with some hard work progressed from when we started a couple of weeks ago. This is a rough plan/schedule of what they are having in day.

Morning (approx. 7am)
Before work I spoon feed soup, I find if I offer Zebedee, Smudge and Jasmine a spoon they then tuck in by themselves. Gets them going so I can monitor they are all eating before I go to work. Pixie pretty much every time will tuck in by herself.

Gizmo, I sit on my knee and spoon feed, he will not help himself and struggles to get down after a few licks, but we persevere and get as much in as possible.

I put in raw slivers/chunks and Zebedee & Gizmo normally eat some, Smudge and Jasmine, normally stash. Pixie concentrates on her soup.

I then leave a bowl of soup and the chunks/slivers in for them for the day while I am at work.

Evening (approx. 7pm and then approx. 11pm.
If they are in the house for the evening I tend to just offer soup as and when during playtime.

I repeat giving them soup and offering chunks/ slivers.

Night
They have their kibble overnight, taken away in morning.



Stools are a mixture of formed and runny. When I got home yesterday evening from the airport and bought them into the house for a check over and playtime, Gizmo had a very loose stool. Their stools are looser than kibble only, but some pretty formed. Having been away for the week, I will have to monitor as at the moment I have only seen a litter tray of stools and cannot comment on whose stool is looking like what. I added a little bone meal to their soup last night after Gizmo’s loose stools.
As for individual meats, I will need to keep a diary of what they have been like. Over the last week my mum has given them turkey, beef, pork and lambs heart. It is difficult to ascertain whose stool is whose in their litter tray but I will monitor their stools when they come in on the evenings and record.

Their coats are starting to look nicer; the girls seemed less active last night when I bought them in for playtime, the boys a little more active. I’ll get a better idea now I am back home and can monitor.

Gizmo has been off the pred for 9 days now. My mum took him to the vets last Monday (with Zebedee for his fat scan) and the vet had a feel of his stomach and thinks he feels ok and he has put on a little weight since his last vet visit.

I will only have an hour to bring them in this evening, but will monitor stools and energy and report back.

One question, if they are not eating kibble overnight – 4g between 5 ferrets makes me think perhaps only one is eating the kibble – then what do you suggest?

I know that they shouldn’t have raw and kibble together but after my mum realised that they weren’t touching the kibble, she has been leaving soup and chunks out as well. I did the same last night, and took the kibble out this morning.

It would seem that my kibble loving ferrets have decided that they don’t want to eat their kibble.

[Sherry]

I agree about the kibble- ditch it ;D It sounds like they are eating enough to sustain themselves
With the ones who will eat slivers, try giving them a full meal if slivers alone and see if they'll accept it. You can use either eggshell powder or bonemeal as a calcium replacement for now.
For your wee girlie who only wants soup, since it's at a wet ground type stage already, start including bits of meat the size if your pinkie nail crescent. Not something she'll have to chew just yet, but it gets her used to a different texture.

[Deleted]

Ok I will offer them slivers with bone meal sprinkled on. They won’t eat liver or organs as slivers so I’ll have to make sure they have one meal (as a soup I am thinking) a week which has approx. 2oz liver & 2oz other organ or am I jumping ahead of myself?

I’ll add some slivers into the soup for Pixie. How do you suggest that I make sure everyone else is eating the slivers of meat? I can only monitor what they want to eat in front of me, which is limited to half an hour in the morning (although the solution here would be to get up earlier lol) and then a few hours in the evening. I am weighing them regularly to monitor if anyone is losing weight, which so far they aren’t. But I don’t want to be realising they are not eating enough through them losing weight.


I will bring them in tonight and give them slivers of meat only and separate Pixie with slivery soup. I guess with the bonemeal it is a case of fine tuning how much is enough based on their stools. I’ll have to leave them with access to soup (for Pixie) overnight so I cannot guarantee that the others won’t eat the slivers over the soup.

I am so happy to have a mentor now that I can run everything past

[Sherry]

For the bone meal, 1/2 tsp per 8oz meat is usually good.
As for the meat slivers, if they eat them while you are watching, they'll eat them when you are gone as well. It's just going to take playing around with amounts to make sure they have enough to fill them up.
And with the organ, yes- 2oz liver, 2oz other organ per ferret per week. You can split that up however you like

[Deleted]

Quick update, Zebedee, Gizmo, Smudge and Jasmine are eating small chunks/ slivers of meat. They have access to Pixie's soup but very rarely tough it.

Pixie, I have upgraded her soup to real lumpy, she isn't as keen but is eating it. I have added tiny slivers of meat.

They don't seem to eat much when I am not here, but when I offer meat to them and soup to Pixie, then they eat well taking it from my hand / spoon.

The stool's in their litter tray this morning looked formed. There was one runny stool last night but not sure whose it was.

I need to add some bonemeal to their meat, I tried to sprinkle some on the other night and then didn't seem to want the meat with it on, but I'll try again today.

[Sherry]

Ferrets are fussy brats ;D For the four you can start slowly increasing the size of the slivers they are now eating. If it reaches a point where they balk at it even after the meat has been left in the cage with them for a few hours, then you will have to take a step back to what they would eat.
Pixie is likely going to be a wee drama queen over her food ;D As long as she's getting enough in her to maintain, keep pushing her just a wee bit with the thickness and the slivers.

[Deleted]

Quick update.

They didn't seem to eat as much today.

Gizmo has runny stools, none of them will eat the meat if I sprinkle bonemeal on it, I will try ground eggshell tomorrow.

[Sherry]

Stubborn brats ;D Try the eggshell powder. You can also mix the meat with a bit of warm water and mix the bonemeal in at the same time. That sometimes works.

[Deleted]

Good idea, I'll try mixing it with water

[Deleted]

Well they weren't keen on it being mixed with water on their meat - they thought I was poisoning them

I have had to take a step back with Pixie, the lumpy soup seemed to make her lose her enthusiasm for the soup So I have gone back to fully blended for now as even with this she still hasn't got the same enthusiasm back. She'll eat it off a spoon, but not much seems to disappear when I am not around.

I have been feeding Gizmo soup (and the others) with added bonemeal to get more bone into him as his poo's are still runny. I think this is how I will have to get the bonemeal into them for now.

All - apart from Pixie - are eating large chunks of heart, pork and beef.

Weights to date are as follows;

January 13th
Zebedee: 1451g
Gizmo: 1140g
Pixie: 736g
Smudge: 811g
Jasmine: 555g

January 21st
Zebedee: 1536g
Gizmo: 1151g
Pixie: 792g
Smudge: 840g
Jasmine: 565g

February 4th
Zebedee: 1536g
Gizmo: 1195g
Pixie: 863g
Smudge: 912g
Jasmine: 620g

February 9th
Zebedee: 1531g
Gizmo: 1231g
Pixie: 912g
Smudge: 923g
Jasmine: 622g

Weight change to date
Zebedee: +80g
Gizmo: +91g
Pixie: +176g
Smudge: +112g
Jasmine: +65g

[Sherry]

Weights look good! And with Pixie- you are going to need to push her a wee bit. Not so much that she refuses entirely, but if she eats a bit less than normal for a couple of days, it isn't going to hurt her. If you cave every time, she'll still be on pureed soup a year from now They are VERY good at playing us this way ;D
You may need to hand feed for a bit, but she'll get back to it when she realizes she's not always going to get her own way.
If she's really resistant to the really thickened soup, go half way. Not puree, but not really thick either. This is where I like using ground meat. You can thicken it as much or as little as you like after pureeing it.

[Deleted]

The consistency I went back to is still thick, just not as thick as I had tried with her of late. She seems to be eating the big bits as well, I put some turkey mince into it and handfeeding her she eats it, just not so keen to self feed if it has chunks :0) I am just conscious that she doesn’t seem to touch the soup when I am at work / overnight and the others don’t seem to eat their meat chunks either. When I get home from work or before work I hand feed and they take some and eat and it prompts them to help themselves. I am assuming they are just sleeping a lot so not eating?!

Gizmo has very runny stools, has done for a few days. I am giving him some soup with added bonemeal in to see if I can firm up his stools. He looks like he may have rolled in it from his coat this morning – all dried in bless him. I don’t think I am getting enough bone into them to be honest. The only way to get the bonemeal into them seems to be putting it in soup and hand feeding.

Smudge seems quieter than usual, but is eating and stools look OK. Others much the same energy wise as I assume they are asleep all day when I am at work as the meat pile doesn’t go down.

[Sherry]

They are sometimes lacking in certain nutrients during a switch, but try not to worry too much. It takes a few months for dietary deficiencies to build to such a point to affect them
Increase the ratio of meaty bits in the thick(ish) soup over time until it's all bits. Keep mixing the bone meal with the meat. They will get used to it. You can also give some pumpkin daily. Just mix a bit with some oil and warm slightly.
Also, giving some probiotics may help with the runny stools. Their bodies are adapting to the raw, and that can result in runny poops as well. Many people use New Chapter probios with good results. It's a good idea to have them on hand anyway, since they can use them after a course of antibiotics.