Foods, treats, and vitamins--What to give??

[Deleted]

Hey y'all! So, during all of my research and question asking about ferret diet, I get a broad spectrum of answers (and I need to consolidate! My boys (Rambo 4 months and Sid 2yrs) currently eat Marshall Premium Ferret Diet. This is what they were fed at the pet store, and what Sid's previous owner had been feeding him. I did tireless research on different sites about the best foods for them (I want to try raw, but so far my efforts have been unsuccessful). I've read that Cat food is a big No-No, because it has veggies and ash in it. All the Ferret food I've compared have corn, veggie juice, even fruit juices! All of which as definite No-No's!! However, my confusion is: If these foods are specifically FOR ferrets; why are they filled with things that are not good for ferrets?! Raw is a little scary to me, cuz my guys eat many times throughout the day, and I obviously can't leave a bowl of raw chicken hanging out all day. So far, the raw I've tried to feed them, they won't go anywhere near.
So, when I compared the foods on the market online, the Marshall seemed to be the lesser evil, even though judging by the ingredients, it cannot possibly be. I want to slowly integrate raw into their meals. In the meantime, what is the BEST kibble I can buy? Is cat food safe for them? I don't care what it costs, as long as it's good for them to eat The ingredients in Blue Buffalo Cat food seem to be the best I've seen so far, how's that?
Also, as far as treats and vitamins go, they get Ferratone Vitamin Paste a few times a week, and Ferret Lax Paste once a week. They absolutely LOVE them. Sid will not touch any other ferret treats, but Rambo is a big fan of Chicken Chew Sticks, and this 100% natural chicken jerky I got from the pet store. Are these vitamins and treats good for them?
I want the best for my little guys, and if they refuse to eat raw, I want the best kibble money can buy. HELP PLEASE!!!!!

[bitbyter]

Wysong Epigen 90 Kibble is probably one of the best out there. www.wysong.net/products/ferret-epigen-90.php

If you have to feed kibble try to make sure it is a mixture of at least three to account for shortages (which are more common than you think). Ferrets imprint on their food at a young age and can actually starve if you try to feed them something they do not recognize as food. Another option is freeze dried raw but honestly raw is by far the healthiest option. Stay away from anything containing wheat, starches or peas in the first 5 or 6 ingredients. We are starting to see evidence of kibble high in pea content causing urinary stones in ferrets.

Kibble fed ferrets tend to graze and need to eat much more often than raw feed ferrets. This is because of all the fillers in kibble. They have to eat more to get the same nutrition as in raw. As proof of this raw fed ferrets poops are about half the size (or smaller) of kibble fed ones.

You CAN leave chicken (or other meat) out for them all day. Ferrets are carnivores and their digestive systems are meant to deal with meat we would never consider as "safe". I feed my girls raw (minimum of three protein sources, organs, bones in meats and appropriate digestive "roughage", such as pumpkin or whole prey). I usually feed them once a day (sometimes two) with enough raw to last them to the next feeding (about 3 to 4 oz each). I sometimes find them gnawing on stashes from a day or so ago. A ferret will not eat "off" meat. I have seen them actively reject fresh stuff (throw it right out of the cage) that they have never rejected before. A fresh package and they are fine with it. Their sense of smell can detect stuff ours never could.

Keep reading as there is a ton of information on this forum and the people are great. If you look at the switching threads it will give you a lot of knowledge as to how a switch can go and what type of diets are acceptable.

[bitbyter]

Sorry, re-read your post and have more to say . Many, many kibbles are horrible and contain fruit products so they smell sweet and our furbabies will eat it (ferrets have a sweet tooth). Marshals is one of the worst out there. Making the raw switch is a process. You can't just put raw in the cage and expect them it eat it as they have no idea what it is. You have to teach them. The standard stages are:

1. Make up a meat based raw "soup" and get them used to how it tastes. Usually this is done by dabbing it on their nose or around their mouths so they lick it off.
2. Get them eating the above soup as a meal.
3. Gradually start cutting back on the water content and increasing the size of the meat going into it.
4. Graduate to ground meats.
5. Move onto slivers.
6. Progressively increase the size of the pieces.
7. Introduce bone in meats.

This takes a different amount of time for different ferrets. Some you have to do this with every type of new protein, many are fine with slow introductions to other proteins once they are eating raw. My switch took about 2.5 months for two ferrets and it was sooooo worth it. It is a lot of work during the switch but once it is done, you are organized with their food (preping meals ahead of time is key) and you have found reliable sources, it isn't any more difficult than kibble.

BTW They love the vitamin pastes and lax because they both contain sugar. Always keep in mind 90% of kibble producers are in this as a business and what is a business's primary concern? Money. If they can save money by compromising the quality of the food but still meet MINIMUM nutritional needs for the animal, most will.

[Deleted]

Yikes..It's scary to think that the people who are in the business of feeding ferrets are not in it for the ferrets at all
How about chicken or beef 100% natural baby food? Also, can they eat fish?
What should I use as a substitute for treats? And vitamins? I wanna make sure they're still getting all their good stuff

Thanks for your advice BTW, very helpful!

[bitbyter]

At this point I'd suggest getting the best kibbles you can (there is a chart somewhere and double check ingredients) and research, research, research. Freeze dried raw is another option. Many pet stores carry it. Just make sure it has as low a vegetable content as possible (many have added vegetables). If you ask around here or search you should find the more popular brands.

You can replace the lax with pumpkin (pure, not pie filling), salmon oil is good (pure no preservatives) and as for vitamins, as long as they are getting a balanced diet I don't think they really need it.

The better informed you are, the better off your ferrets health will be. It is a big jump going raw but well worth it. When you feel you are ready for the switch I would suggest applying for a mentor here.

BTW Treats really aren't necessary for their health. They can be an effective training aid for various things but health wise, totally not necessary. Baby food is often used when they are sick but I think a homemade raw soup would be better. Many people include raw fish in their diet (I include freshwater smelt once a week) but to much can produce a fishy smell in their own oils.

[Deleted]

bitbyter is right that treats arent necessary, but I know I like to give my guys yummy little things here and there that they dont get everyday ( especially when something bad has to happen like an ear cleaning or vet visit). I use cat Purebites, which are literally just whole freezedried meat or liver, or the ziwipeak air dried raw food, which is a bit like jerky.

[Sherry]

Read through some if the mentoring threads, both active and in the diet archives to give you a good idea about switching methods
And yes, raw can most certainly be left out for 24 hrs- I do it all the time
The biggest rule of thumb has already been mentioned- if it's got too high a bacterial count they won't touch it! It might not smell that great to you or I, but they do instinctively know.
Now, that said- at the very beginning of a switch I don't advise leaving meat out for more than 12hrs since their stomach acids will actually get stronger with repeat exposure.

[Deleted]

I had no idea that raw could be left out that long!! Thats the only reason I was still feeding kibble in the cage when im not home!!Thats so awesome. Im just so paranoid that something will happen and my poor wee weasels will go hungry

[Sherry]

And as a rule- it wouldn't hurt them if they did the odd time ;D Some also vary feedings, given that weasels in the wild don't always have the same consistent amount every day. And some days- they don't catch anything so they don't eat!
This is why our ferrets stash, by the way It's for those "lean" days ;D

[Deleted]

moredooks.herobo.com/search.php?chart=ferret

[Deleted]

If you feel you must give them treats, meat jerky is an acceptable treat so long as it is un-smoked, with no additives or seasonings. I don't recommend buying a lot of the commercially made pet stuff due to all the poison recalls from China. Easy enough to make your own.

Raw egg is another item ferrets tend to learn to love. I give mine meat trimmings when I am cooking, such as when I take the fat and gristle off of chicken or beef or pork.

As mentioned oils are good such as salmon or fish oil, or extra virgin olive oil.

There are some commercial products for treats that are not too bad, Wysong makes Dream Treats or something that aren't too bad.

I also used FD raw as a rare treat for my furkids.

[Sherry]

A decent local freeze dried treat is from Orijen. Canadian made and sourced: freezedry.orijen.ca/treats

[katt]

My boys (Rambo 4 months and Sid 2yrs) currently eat Marshall Premium Ferret Diet. This is what they were fed at the pet store, and what Sid's previous owner had been feeding him.
That's one of the worst foods on the market.

However, my confusion is: If these foods are specifically FOR ferrets; why are they filled with things that are not good for ferrets?!

Because it is about making money. Adding corn and wheat makes food much cheaper to produce (what costs more, a steak or a bag of flour?) Also, people are...(trying to use a nice word here lol)...naive. Have you seen the cat and dog food commercials with the delicious looking fruits and vegetables all pouring into the bowl and turning into kibble like magic? Meanwhile the person is saying "Fruits and veggies are healthy and I only want the best for my Whiskers!" People often believe that if something is good for them, it must be good for their pets too. And let's face it, most people don't do their research, they believe what the marketing companies tell them because why would a multi-million dollar for-profit company try to dupe them? It's all about the money, and they can, will, and DO say whatever it takes to convince people that their product is the BEST, even if it is absolute crap. The same thing applies towards human food too by the way.

Raw is a little scary to me, cuz my guys eat many times throughout the day, and I obviously can't leave a bowl of raw chicken hanging out all day.
Yes, you can and you MUST. What do you think everyone here does? Do you think Polecats have little mini-fridges in the wild? They drag their food through dirt, stash it in a den, and defecate and urinate it to mark it as theirs! Then they leave it for hours to weeks at a time, and still eat it. On top of that, meat is very highly controlled as long as you are buying human grade meat and commercial raw from GOOD, TRUSTED sources. In fact, raw foods are MUCH more tightly regulated - kibble is infected with salmonella, e. coli, and various other things far more often than raw foods. If the meat that you are buying isn't contaminated in the first place (which it definitely should not be if you get it from a good, clean source like I said), then there is nothing to worry about. In addition, raw will typically dry out before it goes bad. (Ferrets love making their own "jerky" treats ).
On top of that, ferrets are MORE than capable of handling the bacterial load in raw meat. They have a very acidic stomach. Where in humans the stomach pH is about 2, in ferret's it's closer to 1. This kills just about everything. Most microorganisms cannot survive at that pH, it is too acidic. Ferrets also have a very fast rate of digestion - about 2-4 hours. This means food passes through too quickly to really allow time for any potential pathogen to set up camp. Raw digests even faster than kibble, further improving this benefit. They also have a very strong immune system (esp raw fed ferrets) designed for defending themselves against meat-borne bacteria. Meat is what they are designed to eat, plain and simple. This includes all proper defenses!

Here is a whole board with scientific and vet-written articles about raw diet: www.holisticferret60.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=rawscience


So far, the raw I've tried to feed them, they won't go anywhere near.

Well that is no surprise. Ferrets, like cats, imprint on their food and making diet changes can be a long and difficult process. You should definitely sign up for the mentoring program. We will pair you with an individual mentor who will guide you through the steps of transitioning them onto a raw diet, convincing them raw is food, and making sure that your raw diet is PROPERLY varied and balanced.

Mentoring Program (Please read the stickies, they are important): www.holisticferret60.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=switch

Improvements on raw: www.holisticferret60.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=questions&action=display&thread=123

Impact of food on ferret dentition (just one example of how ferrets are perfectly designed for a raw diet).
www.holisticferret60.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=questions&action=display&thread=7616

There is a thread around here about why an unbalanced raw diet is worse than kibble, but I can't find it. Feeding a balanced diet is CRITICAL. Hence why the mentoring program is so important.

So, when I compared the foods on the market online, the Marshall seemed to be the lesser evil, even though judging by the ingredients, it cannot possibly be.
No. Marshalls is one of the worst foods on the market. Marshalls and anything you can buy at WalMart are about as bad as it gets in the kibble department.

I want to slowly integrate raw into their meals. In the meantime, what is the BEST kibble I can buy? Is cat food safe for them? I don't care what it costs, as long as it's good for them to eat
Sign up for the mentoring program! As for changing their kibble, if you are going to switch to raw you are almost better off just bypassing changing the kibble. Why go through the stress of 2 diet changes? Just go straight to raw.

The ingredients in Blue Buffalo Cat food seem to be the best I've seen so far, how's that?
Blue Buffalo is pretty good, but it isn't the best. I have never fed ferret kibble so I always forget which are the best but there is a thread around here somehwere called "If a Kibble MUST be Fed." Hopefully someone can track it down and post it here for you. *ahem* SHERRY!!!!

Also, as far as treats and vitamins go, they get Ferratone Vitamin Paste a few times a week, and Ferret Lax Paste once a week. They absolutely LOVE them.
These are both pretty terrible. And Ferretone is actually a liquid, not a paste. You are probably thinking of FerretVite. I give FerretVite simply because the consistency makes it easier to work with than FerreTone, but FeretVite is really, really horrible for them. Tone is not really all that good for them either, but it's better than the Vite which is PACKED with sugars. A MUCH better treat to use is oils. Salmon or Fish oil and Extra Virgin Olive Oil (EVO) are both VERY good for them, and they usually love them. I feed Mikey's Mix - a mix of Salmon/Fish oil, EVO, and Extra Virgin Coconut Oil. (Mikey uses equal parts of each oil, I use slightly more Salmon/Fish oil than EVO, and slightly more EVO than EVCO). This is useful as my boys don'y like Olive Oil but it disguises the taste. EVO helps prevent oils and is very good for their skin and coats as well as being full of antioxidants. Salmon oil has the good fats - Omega 3's and makes a huge difference in their coat and skin. Extra Virgin Coconut Oil also has good fats, is cram full of antioxidants, and is thought to be both a healing and anticarcinogenic agent (The Virgin part is important, if it is not at Least Virgin, preferrable Extra Virgin, it has been processed and many of the good compounds have been lost). Not only will your ferrets like the oil, they will be much healthier on it (a from the benefits of the oil and b from the lack of sugars from the Tone or Vite), and they will also have very nice, sleek, shiny coats and less dry skin/itching.

Sid will not touch any other ferret treats, but Rambo is a big fan of Chicken Chew Sticks, and this 100% natural chicken jerky I got from the pet store. Are these vitamins and treats good for them?
Nope. Not really. They are treats. Remember too that treats are a human creation. WE want to give them because we like to feel the gratitude and excitement - they do not NEED treats. The only processed treats I will give (and then only on OCCASION) are N-Bones www.amazon.com/N-Bone-111228-Ferret-Chew-Treats/dp/B000F6SFUG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1361124498&sr=8-1&keywords=Ferret+N-Bones
FerretVite, which I believe is what you probably have (remember, this stuff is horrible for them, I actually do NOT recommend it at all!!!!)
www.amazon.com/8in1-FerretVite-Vitamin-Paste-4-25-Ounce/dp/B000FPL0FE/ref=sr_1_1?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1361124635&sr=1-1&keywords=FerretVite
and most people use FerreTone: www.amazon.com/FerreTone-Skin-And-Coat-Supplement/dp/B0002DHM4C/ref=sr_1_3?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1361124635&sr=1-3&keywords=FerretVite

What is MUCH, MUCH better to give is: oil (see notes above), freeze dried foods, dehydrated meat (you can make your own in a dehydrator or oven, or buy them), or small pieces of raw food.

I want the best for my little guys, and if they refuse to eat raw, I want the best kibble money can buy. HELP PLEASE!!!!!
They will not refuse. You just need to sign up for a mentor who can guide you through the switching process and help you get through the little road blocks along the way. Switching them is not easy, and you must be committed to the process, but it is NOT impossible. Even extraordinarily stubborn ferrets can be switched onto a raw diet.

[katt]

If they are on a truly well balanced raw diet, they will not need vitamins. If you are insistent on feeding vitamins, or cannot get as much variety as you need you can supplement with freeze dried and/or commercial raw, and as far as vitamin supplements go this one is the best: Wysong Call of the Wild: www.amazon.com/Wysong-Call-Wild-Supplement-Dogs/dp/B0006MU97Q/ref=sr_1_1?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1361125232&sr=1-1&keywords=wysong+call+of+the+wild

As for leaving meat out, if it is bad, they won't eat it. Timing wise foods are good for:
raw soup: 6-8 hours
ground/mince raw: 8-12 hours (sometimes it will last longer, but it depends on the temp, humidity, etc of the house)
raw chunks and meaty bones: 24 hours (depends somewhat on the thickness of the meat as well as room conditions)
whole prey: 24-48 hours

[katt]

Here is the thread about stressing BALANCE in diet and why balance and variety are so important;
www.holisticferret60.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=newbies&action=display&thread=10575