Post by katt on Jan 11, 2013 23:44:40 GMT -5
I found this in the old forum and wanted to revive the thread as a sticky as it is a good read. Posted by Joisiesmom.
Here is the original thread: holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talking&action=display&thread=6218
Hi All!
Well I had a priceless lifetime moment Tuesday Nov. 15, 2010! Got a facebook text from a friend who runs "Stinky Pete's Ferret Retreat" in Florida (and from whom a half dozen ferrets have managed to find my home suitable), her shelter was going to be visited by Bob Church as he passed through on a trip to the Everglades! Those who could manage on such short notice were welcome to visit too.
Managing to actually get off work at 5 pm ( instead of 8pm) gave me time to run home, gather some ferrets and zip on down south. Kimba lives an hour away and Bob was supposed to arrive between 7pm & 8pm.
When Bob arrived there were 7 women waiting to meet him.
For those of you that aren't familiar with Bob Church - PLEASE do an online search for him - simply use "Bob Church Ferrets" and you will be directed to a plethora of links. Bob Church has been a life time photo- journalist and also is a Zoo-archeologist. He has undertaken at his OWN expense and time to do "The Ferret Project" which is a multi year, worldwide study of ferrets on different continents and in many different situations, both domestic and feral and including polecats of all types! He studies their physiology, anatomy and skeletal structure as well as dentition and diet among other things like genetics, husbandry and management. His data is being compiled and is already proving what many of us natural feeders suspect/ surmise - that the health of the ferret is definitely tied to its diet and that housing management plays a significant role. While early altering is the main culprit behind adrenal, there are other factors too - such as stress and photo- periods ( daylight influence - NOT snapshots).
Bob's research has shown a definitive correlation between kibble diets and insulinoma, not to mention poor oral health, IBD and a host of other maladies.
Bob met with 7 strange, crazy ferret women to share informally his experiences, some stories and good laughs. He is much like I had envisioned him via his writings - a man with lots of knowledge, easy to talk with, has a great sense of humor and is INTENSELY devoted to ferrets!
AS the hostess introduces us one by one to Bob, she got to me and described me as being the Kim on the FML list that gets people all riled up about feeding naturally; and who is the one that frequently goes toe to toe with one particular poster. To which Bob grabbed my hand to shake it again, much more vigorously than the first time , exclaiming : "OH you are THAT Kim! - Pleased to meet you!"
As the only one in our little group that is a natural feeder I felt a bit honored when Bob would mention things like, "Kim, I'm sure you've seen this... when speaking of healthy teeth." Or when one of the group was inquiring about Bob's ideas to assuage recurrent, chronic, IBD in a 5 year old ferret and Bob commented, "Well, this will make you happy Kim - first for IBD ferrets you have to realize that they are NOT designed to eat the high carbohydrates in manufactured foods and they NEED real meat proteins!" He spoke about natural fed ferrets not requiring food in front of them at all times. He asked me how many times a day I feed and my reply was generally twice a day about 12 hours apart, but sometimes once a day and sometimes none. I try to mimic how a true predatory carnivore would eat. Bob said that's exactly what he does! That it is a MYTH that ferrets HAVE to have food in front of them 24/7 - that ONLY WHEN FED KIBBLE does this come in to play because of the intense wide ranging of blood sugar levels when feeding kibbles!
He explained how small the ferret pancreas is in relation to it's body size and that this is due to the FACT that ferret's evolved to eat SOLELY animal proteins and ZERO carbs! The ferret stomach is extremely acidic in order to digest the meat and bones and the intestinal tract is so short that the pancreas has to excrete digestive enzymes to work quickly and to neutralize the excess acids to prevent the acids from eating the ferret from the inside out!
The pancreas does have another role and that is to transform the animal proteins into usable blood sugars for the ferret - which is done mostly by the pancreatic beta cells. When the ferret is forced to eat carbohydrates the pancreas recognizes there is too much sugar in the system and it has to go in to over drive to regulate the sugars and normalize the system - hence you get the highs and lows. Because there are no where near enough animal proteins in ANY kibble the ferret has to eat huge quantities to try and meet its MEAT needs! Which as you can easily see again causes an insidious cyclic overload for the pancreas. The end result of such daily onslaughts year in and year out is the many health issues we see that are so often considered "normal" for ferrets - poor oral health, IBD, and insulinoma!
Conversely a ferret on an evolutionary diet will have a rather stable rhythm of blood sugar.
Bob talked to us about dentition (and the effects of kibble on the teeth). He demonstrated, using our ferrets the HUGE amount of NOSE entailing the ferret's head. He explained the evolutionary development for such a large nose.
He spoke about the robust immune system of the ferret and the reason that feeding naturally isn't a cause for concern to sterilize everything and ferrets are easily able to (and will) eat "prizes" that have gone off a bit.
How the entire family of mustelids are not simply predators, but scavengers and rather hyena like in that respect - they have immensely powerful jaws for their size, incredible noses for tracking down carrion and smelling buried stashes of other predators, unique teeth designed to shear meat from bone and to crush the bones, opening up nutritious marrow, they have excellent memories and capabilities to learn which makes them formidable foes and keeps them from becoming prey themselves.
Bob was asked questions about angora ferrets, feral ferrets, polecats, American ferrets, European ferrets and Russian ferrets. He had a great story about A UK working ferret and her family of Lurchers and human. He spoke with an easy manner, jovial tone and the passion within him regarding these animals was evident. I'll admit it, I was mesmerized, intrigued, delighted and at the same time felt immediate camaraderie!
I did my best to be reserved and let the other ladies ask their questions. At one point Bob said, "Kim, I thought you'd have lots of questions." I replied, "Bob, you've pretty much touched on many of the things I would have asked, and I didn't want to commandeer your time - these other people have questions too." Hehe - apparently he'd read at least a few of my posts on some forums!
Bob feeds a wide variety of prey items as well as his chicken gravy - which he said he doesn't cook as long as he used to. I gathered he fed it mostly like a pureed mix. This form is always good to get the ferrets used to should they need it when they get ill.
I inquired if he knew of any of these so called "studies" for "complete & balanced, approved" diets that are plastered on every bag of kibble and how I've written to the major manufacturers seeking the basis of such requirements from them - but all queries have gone unanswered. Bob explained there are NO specific ferret studies beyond the so called AAPFCO (may have the initials mixed up) ones where a specific food (kibble) is fed to the animal and the animal, depending on age only has to SURVIVE on said kibble for six months to a year or if a breeding animal must produce the normal QUANTITY of offspring. There are NO studies done proving the actual nutrient requirement for optimal ferret health and longevity. Bob said there is however ONE diet that DOES provide optimum nutrients and offers the best longevity and that diet is strictly - the EVOLUTIONARY NATURAL diet! In other words a prey model diet!
The rodents, rabbits, fish, amphibians, insects, invertebrates that ferrets and polecats evolved eating is EXACTLY the proper diet to offer them the very best health! Waiting until a ferret has gone through at least one mature sexual cycle BEFORE altering MAY be a key to preventing the onslaught of adrenal - but that practice would be nearly impossible in the US and is very quickly fading in the UK as the UK seems to be adopting the ferret keeping/feeding habits of Americans.
AS the night progressed a couple of the ladies took their leave. When the remaining 3 of us realized it was now 1:30 AM we reluctantly said our good byes to Bob and Good night. Pix of course were taken and we parted company.
I must say on the way home I did feel rather vindicated by many of the things Bob had said. While my venture into the raw, natural world was due to one sweet deaf Panda colored ferret Josie - she opened my eyes to what it means to offer a ferret the best! I'm glad I wasn't hypnotized by the manufacturers and certain so called self proclaimed "experts who have had ferrets for decades" or compelled by clever advertising gimmicks and endorsements by veterinarians to remain magnetized to the straight and narrow tracks of the soulless indifferent kibble train!
While I understand feeding naturally touches a nerve with many people, and some people cannot bear to even consider it; one of the most repeated questions on ANY ferret forum or in any ferret owner gathering is , "What is the best food to feed my ferrets?" The fact is there is only ONE best diet and that is to use Bob's phrase: "The evolutionary diet"! All else is only second best ( if that).
The sad fact is that anyone who HAS jumped the tracks and ventured into the natural world and is willing enough to share their wonderful results with the rest of the ferret world - these pioneers get shot down, over run, over moderated, stifled, even banned by people unwilling to even attempt a natural diet. While at the same time those same negative people continue to contribute to the demise of many ferrets and actually promote ill health by continuing to dispense WRONG information about "safe" healthy foods and treats for ferrets; they'll use scare tactics about bacteria and perpetuate myths that kibble can clean teeth or that the grains and carbs and vegetables in the kibble CAN be digested by the ferrets. To them I say, " SHAME on you and HUSH up! You do NOT need scientific studies to prove what mother nature has already proved - ferrets EVOLVED as obligatory carnivores and have NO apparatus within them to digest or utilize plant matter!"
Feeding an evolutionary diet CAN be done economically and IS safe for the ferrets and humans with just a bit of common sense and a tad bit of research on the human's part. The evolutionary diet offers a WIDE variety of foodstuffs to keep the ferrets interested in meal time which only enriches their entire beings
Seeing the proof of the power of a natural diet transform many ferrets of ALL ages before my very eyes, I shared this experience across many ferret forums and often became embroiled in heated discussions with very close minded people. It is the ferrets that suffer when people ONLY want convenience foods and it is hard for me sometimes to not be blunt when, with just a SMALL bit of effort, feeding naturally can be done! The TREMENDOUS benefits reaped are palpable and can happen right before your very eyes!
Early on in my quest to offer Josie the best I could I stumbled upon Bob Church's postings and he quickly became my idol. I enjoy the way he writes, I admire the investment he's made, and feel bad that he's suffered great personal losses and jeopardized his health and livelihood to simply learn more and get other people to learn more about ferrets and he has always come across as a very down to earth person. After meeting him in person - the picture I'd painted of him was fairly accurate - although I'd envisioned him a tad taller....
My hat is off to you Bob Church! Thank you for sharing with mere mortals the experiences you've had. You are an inspiration to ANY one that truly wants to offer their ferrets the best!
Cheers to ALL!, Kim
P.S. Roman, my golden child/Gladiator ferret got to meet Bob too and engaged Bob in some rough housing! AS for me - I'm still grinning from ear to ear at this wonderful face to face meeting!
Here is the original thread: holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talking&action=display&thread=6218
Hi All!
Well I had a priceless lifetime moment Tuesday Nov. 15, 2010! Got a facebook text from a friend who runs "Stinky Pete's Ferret Retreat" in Florida (and from whom a half dozen ferrets have managed to find my home suitable), her shelter was going to be visited by Bob Church as he passed through on a trip to the Everglades! Those who could manage on such short notice were welcome to visit too.
Managing to actually get off work at 5 pm ( instead of 8pm) gave me time to run home, gather some ferrets and zip on down south. Kimba lives an hour away and Bob was supposed to arrive between 7pm & 8pm.
When Bob arrived there were 7 women waiting to meet him.
For those of you that aren't familiar with Bob Church - PLEASE do an online search for him - simply use "Bob Church Ferrets" and you will be directed to a plethora of links. Bob Church has been a life time photo- journalist and also is a Zoo-archeologist. He has undertaken at his OWN expense and time to do "The Ferret Project" which is a multi year, worldwide study of ferrets on different continents and in many different situations, both domestic and feral and including polecats of all types! He studies their physiology, anatomy and skeletal structure as well as dentition and diet among other things like genetics, husbandry and management. His data is being compiled and is already proving what many of us natural feeders suspect/ surmise - that the health of the ferret is definitely tied to its diet and that housing management plays a significant role. While early altering is the main culprit behind adrenal, there are other factors too - such as stress and photo- periods ( daylight influence - NOT snapshots).
Bob's research has shown a definitive correlation between kibble diets and insulinoma, not to mention poor oral health, IBD and a host of other maladies.
Bob met with 7 strange, crazy ferret women to share informally his experiences, some stories and good laughs. He is much like I had envisioned him via his writings - a man with lots of knowledge, easy to talk with, has a great sense of humor and is INTENSELY devoted to ferrets!
AS the hostess introduces us one by one to Bob, she got to me and described me as being the Kim on the FML list that gets people all riled up about feeding naturally; and who is the one that frequently goes toe to toe with one particular poster. To which Bob grabbed my hand to shake it again, much more vigorously than the first time , exclaiming : "OH you are THAT Kim! - Pleased to meet you!"
As the only one in our little group that is a natural feeder I felt a bit honored when Bob would mention things like, "Kim, I'm sure you've seen this... when speaking of healthy teeth." Or when one of the group was inquiring about Bob's ideas to assuage recurrent, chronic, IBD in a 5 year old ferret and Bob commented, "Well, this will make you happy Kim - first for IBD ferrets you have to realize that they are NOT designed to eat the high carbohydrates in manufactured foods and they NEED real meat proteins!" He spoke about natural fed ferrets not requiring food in front of them at all times. He asked me how many times a day I feed and my reply was generally twice a day about 12 hours apart, but sometimes once a day and sometimes none. I try to mimic how a true predatory carnivore would eat. Bob said that's exactly what he does! That it is a MYTH that ferrets HAVE to have food in front of them 24/7 - that ONLY WHEN FED KIBBLE does this come in to play because of the intense wide ranging of blood sugar levels when feeding kibbles!
He explained how small the ferret pancreas is in relation to it's body size and that this is due to the FACT that ferret's evolved to eat SOLELY animal proteins and ZERO carbs! The ferret stomach is extremely acidic in order to digest the meat and bones and the intestinal tract is so short that the pancreas has to excrete digestive enzymes to work quickly and to neutralize the excess acids to prevent the acids from eating the ferret from the inside out!
The pancreas does have another role and that is to transform the animal proteins into usable blood sugars for the ferret - which is done mostly by the pancreatic beta cells. When the ferret is forced to eat carbohydrates the pancreas recognizes there is too much sugar in the system and it has to go in to over drive to regulate the sugars and normalize the system - hence you get the highs and lows. Because there are no where near enough animal proteins in ANY kibble the ferret has to eat huge quantities to try and meet its MEAT needs! Which as you can easily see again causes an insidious cyclic overload for the pancreas. The end result of such daily onslaughts year in and year out is the many health issues we see that are so often considered "normal" for ferrets - poor oral health, IBD, and insulinoma!
Conversely a ferret on an evolutionary diet will have a rather stable rhythm of blood sugar.
Bob talked to us about dentition (and the effects of kibble on the teeth). He demonstrated, using our ferrets the HUGE amount of NOSE entailing the ferret's head. He explained the evolutionary development for such a large nose.
He spoke about the robust immune system of the ferret and the reason that feeding naturally isn't a cause for concern to sterilize everything and ferrets are easily able to (and will) eat "prizes" that have gone off a bit.
How the entire family of mustelids are not simply predators, but scavengers and rather hyena like in that respect - they have immensely powerful jaws for their size, incredible noses for tracking down carrion and smelling buried stashes of other predators, unique teeth designed to shear meat from bone and to crush the bones, opening up nutritious marrow, they have excellent memories and capabilities to learn which makes them formidable foes and keeps them from becoming prey themselves.
Bob was asked questions about angora ferrets, feral ferrets, polecats, American ferrets, European ferrets and Russian ferrets. He had a great story about A UK working ferret and her family of Lurchers and human. He spoke with an easy manner, jovial tone and the passion within him regarding these animals was evident. I'll admit it, I was mesmerized, intrigued, delighted and at the same time felt immediate camaraderie!
I did my best to be reserved and let the other ladies ask their questions. At one point Bob said, "Kim, I thought you'd have lots of questions." I replied, "Bob, you've pretty much touched on many of the things I would have asked, and I didn't want to commandeer your time - these other people have questions too." Hehe - apparently he'd read at least a few of my posts on some forums!
Bob feeds a wide variety of prey items as well as his chicken gravy - which he said he doesn't cook as long as he used to. I gathered he fed it mostly like a pureed mix. This form is always good to get the ferrets used to should they need it when they get ill.
I inquired if he knew of any of these so called "studies" for "complete & balanced, approved" diets that are plastered on every bag of kibble and how I've written to the major manufacturers seeking the basis of such requirements from them - but all queries have gone unanswered. Bob explained there are NO specific ferret studies beyond the so called AAPFCO (may have the initials mixed up) ones where a specific food (kibble) is fed to the animal and the animal, depending on age only has to SURVIVE on said kibble for six months to a year or if a breeding animal must produce the normal QUANTITY of offspring. There are NO studies done proving the actual nutrient requirement for optimal ferret health and longevity. Bob said there is however ONE diet that DOES provide optimum nutrients and offers the best longevity and that diet is strictly - the EVOLUTIONARY NATURAL diet! In other words a prey model diet!
The rodents, rabbits, fish, amphibians, insects, invertebrates that ferrets and polecats evolved eating is EXACTLY the proper diet to offer them the very best health! Waiting until a ferret has gone through at least one mature sexual cycle BEFORE altering MAY be a key to preventing the onslaught of adrenal - but that practice would be nearly impossible in the US and is very quickly fading in the UK as the UK seems to be adopting the ferret keeping/feeding habits of Americans.
AS the night progressed a couple of the ladies took their leave. When the remaining 3 of us realized it was now 1:30 AM we reluctantly said our good byes to Bob and Good night. Pix of course were taken and we parted company.
I must say on the way home I did feel rather vindicated by many of the things Bob had said. While my venture into the raw, natural world was due to one sweet deaf Panda colored ferret Josie - she opened my eyes to what it means to offer a ferret the best! I'm glad I wasn't hypnotized by the manufacturers and certain so called self proclaimed "experts who have had ferrets for decades" or compelled by clever advertising gimmicks and endorsements by veterinarians to remain magnetized to the straight and narrow tracks of the soulless indifferent kibble train!
While I understand feeding naturally touches a nerve with many people, and some people cannot bear to even consider it; one of the most repeated questions on ANY ferret forum or in any ferret owner gathering is , "What is the best food to feed my ferrets?" The fact is there is only ONE best diet and that is to use Bob's phrase: "The evolutionary diet"! All else is only second best ( if that).
The sad fact is that anyone who HAS jumped the tracks and ventured into the natural world and is willing enough to share their wonderful results with the rest of the ferret world - these pioneers get shot down, over run, over moderated, stifled, even banned by people unwilling to even attempt a natural diet. While at the same time those same negative people continue to contribute to the demise of many ferrets and actually promote ill health by continuing to dispense WRONG information about "safe" healthy foods and treats for ferrets; they'll use scare tactics about bacteria and perpetuate myths that kibble can clean teeth or that the grains and carbs and vegetables in the kibble CAN be digested by the ferrets. To them I say, " SHAME on you and HUSH up! You do NOT need scientific studies to prove what mother nature has already proved - ferrets EVOLVED as obligatory carnivores and have NO apparatus within them to digest or utilize plant matter!"
Feeding an evolutionary diet CAN be done economically and IS safe for the ferrets and humans with just a bit of common sense and a tad bit of research on the human's part. The evolutionary diet offers a WIDE variety of foodstuffs to keep the ferrets interested in meal time which only enriches their entire beings
Seeing the proof of the power of a natural diet transform many ferrets of ALL ages before my very eyes, I shared this experience across many ferret forums and often became embroiled in heated discussions with very close minded people. It is the ferrets that suffer when people ONLY want convenience foods and it is hard for me sometimes to not be blunt when, with just a SMALL bit of effort, feeding naturally can be done! The TREMENDOUS benefits reaped are palpable and can happen right before your very eyes!
Early on in my quest to offer Josie the best I could I stumbled upon Bob Church's postings and he quickly became my idol. I enjoy the way he writes, I admire the investment he's made, and feel bad that he's suffered great personal losses and jeopardized his health and livelihood to simply learn more and get other people to learn more about ferrets and he has always come across as a very down to earth person. After meeting him in person - the picture I'd painted of him was fairly accurate - although I'd envisioned him a tad taller....
My hat is off to you Bob Church! Thank you for sharing with mere mortals the experiences you've had. You are an inspiration to ANY one that truly wants to offer their ferrets the best!
Cheers to ALL!, KimP.S. Roman, my golden child/Gladiator ferret got to meet Bob too and engaged Bob in some rough housing! AS for me - I'm still grinning from ear to ear at this wonderful face to face meeting!
