|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2011 7:14:25 GMT -5
just got back from traveling (visiting my parents in Florida they are really getting up there in age ). Will be online today and will catch up on Boris. If you ever need help, you can always email me at mustelidmusk@yahoo.com or send me a facebook message so I'll be sure get on the forum. I'm thinking my insanity may last until mid -July this time. Tomichi broke a canine while I was gone - I think she'll be OK (only the bottom third is missing - more stress ) -jennifer
|
|
|
Post by Sherry on May 23, 2011 8:21:46 GMT -5
Thanks, Jennifer
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2011 22:52:59 GMT -5
Hmmmm..... I've read everything....
When did you start the cod liver oil? has it been given regularly? It's notorious for giving the runs. Also, cod liver oil has a LOT of vitamin A and Vitamin D, so be careful with it if you continue to use it.
You may want to try some KMR or equivalent in with the ground foods. For now, just getting Boris to eat is more important than loading him up with supplements. If I had to retain one supplement for IBD, it would be the pancreatic enzymes. Sprinkle a small amount on the food, mi x it in, and let the food sit for at least 1/2 hour before serving. This helps with nutrient absorption.
There are some more supplements that may help, but we need to get Boris in a better mood before we do anything weird to his food.
Once a tummy gets really messed up, a little bit of pred. can go a long way. long term digestive issues can be worse than the pred.. I suspect that stress is playing a large part in this flare up. Poor Boris - he is such a sweet, sensitive little boy. I'll be watching this thread and digging through some other things I've tried in the past. Once Boris settles down a bit, we can slowly try a few things to help minimize any flare-ups.
-jennifer
|
|
|
Post by Sherry on May 23, 2011 23:12:09 GMT -5
When did you start the cod liver oil? Tried- didn't start. He won't touch it. I did put some(maybe 1cc) in the food for Boris, Vincent and Lucrezia yesterday, because I've not been able to get him eating liver in over a month. You may want to try some KMR or equivalent in with the ground foods Won't touch the ground unless I feed him, and he doesn't trust anything I give him still. Won't even touch his favourite hand fed soupies when I tried giving it to him. If it comes from the hand, it's unsafe now. I can try some KMR, see if that will entice him to try it. it would be the pancreatic enzymes Of course That was the one supplement I couldn't get him to take on the food even put on fresh. I had started slowly adding it in before Sinnead passed, but not since. I can start it over again, see if he takes it this time around. Since all three always eat together(about 5 oz of meat), how much should be going on it? He is taking close to a normal dose of probiotics now, though. He is going back into the vet's on Thursday. We are going to talk about pred. My big concern is that to get it into him is going to be a major fight, which is going to stress him out a LOT.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2011 8:18:38 GMT -5
Yes, ferrets can be great at not eating. I would feed him with the others right now. I would also offer some additional "special food" on the finger tip to help restore his confidence that your are not trying to poison him...I know how Boris gets. Keep it playful and do not force him. even a little lick of cream from the finger is a start. If you introduce anything (like the enzymes), go very lightly, one thing only. You might want to try freeze-dried organs - powdered, mixed into food. Pancreas supplement will help to provide organ meat and enzymes. www.drrons.com/thyroid-adrenal-liver-pancreas-glandulars.htmIf you search around, you may be able to find a cheaper source. The cod liver oil provides vitamins A & D. It lacks taurine, which can be provided as a tasteless powder if Boris is avoiding dark mats. I know its really difficult to deal with a ferret that is not eating. I suspect the vet will prescribe carafate and pred., which should help. If you have not already done this, you may want to consider doing a fecal culture (where they grow the bacteria to look for weird bugs) and a CBC with chemistry panel. -jennifer
|
|
|
Post by Sherry on May 24, 2011 8:40:28 GMT -5
I've been wondering about a fecal, since some of his poops are really foul. Reminds me of when Vincent had a bacterial overgrowth. Ok, I like the idea of just offering something he will like. He also hates tone and oils now, since he associates that with the metro. I'll ask her about the CBC as well. Who knows what this little guy has going on inside And Jennifer? Thank you
|
|
|
Post by Sherry on May 24, 2011 22:50:20 GMT -5
Ok. Little beggar STILL won't touch the meat with the pancreatic enzymes on it Even just a smidge put on right before he gets it. And he didn't want his food tonight, either. Only ate one tiny piece of the goat meat. I'd be surprised if it was even 1/4 ounce. I did get him to take about 1/2 cube of pureed turkey, but only after I topped it with some heavy cream. He will take a taste of the tonic lax from my finger(just a taste- don't want to give him even runnier stools), as well as taking a taste of cream from my finger. And he did eat that 1/2 cube of puree for me from a spoon. So that's major progress compared to what he's been like.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 25, 2011 8:02:35 GMT -5
Good progress We need to restore his confidence since I think he has a lot of stress. In theory, the metro. should kill any bacteria. but if everything is flying through him, it's possible that something is not getting addressed. Bacteria in the gut embeds within the mucus lining of the gut, which explains why it is impossible to remove all "bugs" - especially when things are moving too fast. (Giardia is a prime example - and remember, giardia can be in municipal tap water. If stress with a touch of IBD weakens the immune system, Giardia or other "bugs" can flare up and/or rebound) . Metro is not easy on the stomach, which may explain some of his reluctance to eat. Boris may have helicobacter/ulcers, which are helped by carafate. Slippery elm can help with ulcers and irritation by forming a mucus like gel that coats the gut. However, anything that coats the gut blocks nutrient aborption to some degree. Carafate is a little different in that it forms more aod a "band-aid" on any ulcers, so it's less "interferring" with the digestive process than something like pepto bismol/mylanta/slippery elm bark. Don't worry about the supplements at this time. I suspect Boris will recover fastest with a dose of pred. Keep up with the special treats, stress reduction, and rebuilding confidence. Once we ee some improvement coupled with more interest in food, we can start working on controlling the IBD with some supplements and dietary measures. The main thing right ow is getting Boris happy and eating with poop that is at least tolerable. One thing that is REALLY healing (more so than I originally thought) is velvet antler. It's typically us for bone/joint issues. But it contains a lot of growth hormones and nutrients required for rapid growth and healing. I've never used it for IBD. It definitely improved the strength and increased the growth rate on my ferrets nails. But I recommended it to a friend who has a 100 lb+ older dog that has joint/hip/arthritic issues. The dog was starting to have a really tough time (even on rimadyl). He was not getting on the furniture any more, could barely get up/down the stairs, having trouble getting up from sitting/lying down, etc. The dog started the antler about a month or two? ago. He is now off the rimadyl and he's "acting like a puppy again" according to his owner. I did not expect this kind of response. (Please note for all reading - I would not recommend the use of velvet antler in any pet/person that is still growing - overly rapid growth can cause serious pain-related issue in - particulay in some dogs. Moreover, there are some hormones in the antlers that may make it an unsuitable choice in some instances for ferrets.) I'm going to do some research on antlers to get a better feel for where they may be mot useful. Also, increasing the ratio of omega 3's relative to omega 6's may help with inflammatory responses. the 6's result in production of arachadonic acid (AA), which produces inflammation. In contrast, the 3's result in EPA and DHA, which are anti-inflammatory. the 6's and 3's compete for "resources" in the body - so too much 6 can result in a general inflammatory system - at least in theory. So we are not out of options by any means. SOme of the proteins, such as l-glutamine, may help. Also, some IBD patients do better on lower sulfur diets (meat selection). Hang in there. and let's get Boris in a better frame of mind. Pred may be a god-send at this point in time. I's a great drug when it's needed. My fist two kids were on pred for years without any issues. (another reason for the CBC and chem. panel...good to baseline the blood work prior to staring pred.) -jennifer
|
|
|
Post by Sherry on May 25, 2011 9:10:13 GMT -5
Alright! Since he's accepting of the heavy cream right now, I'm going to keep adding a tiny bit to foods as enticement. I've also sent you the diary I started keeping for him as an attachment to see if you can note anything. For right now, I'm going to focus on his food- I'm going to hope to get some commercial raw into him for the bone/organ ratio, but not worry too much if not. I'm also going to work at getting him to take a wee bit of daily soupies for me for when I get the pred. because in soup is the only way I'm going to get him to take it without my having to force the issue, and have him completely stressed out again. I am, I'll admit, concerned about how to sneak the carafate into him. Because if he won't take it willingly, it's going to be a major fight.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 25, 2011 22:59:26 GMT -5
OK, I read the log you were compiling. I'm reading between the lines here....stools are yellow, mucoid/slimy/greasy (jelly). This suggests that ulcers may not be involved. I assume you were feeding the cod liver oil at this time to help with the lack of organ meats. I also assume that Boris had also been through a round of the metronidazole. If this is the case, here are some guesses....
production of a lot of mucus s typically from the colon. Yellow stinky stool suggests a lot of undigested fats - more so that bacteria overgrowth....the time that Boris ate the pancreatic enzyme, his poop was better than it had been in a long time. Also Boris is now avoiding all oils. The oils are not digesting anyway, and they may be upsetting his tummy. He's probably suffering from a queasy gut Keep them out of his diet until he improves - reintroduce the oils lowly , and keep the amounts small.
Does Boris like fish? I'm thinking that hydrolyzed whitefish would be a good thing to add to the diet. It's pretty much a pre-digested protein source that requires no digestion - because it just gets absorbed without the need for digestion by stomach acids and enzymes, it will help with nutrition. At the same time, keep fat content a little lower than normal. The little bit of cream that helps him retain interest in food is fine, keep the meat fats a little lower. And no oils for now.
Regarding the hydrolyzed white fish....check out "Seacure" on the web. it's easy to find. It's a great supplement for sick animals. I do not know if it has much taste. as always, start out with tint amount - perhaps in the bit of cream Boris is now eating.
I also found a very interesting page that evaluates milk replacer formulas used to raise baby animals (KMR, esbilac, etc.). I will post the link with a good title so you can sticky this if it seems to be of value.
One more thing...try serving food warmed, and try it cold as well. cold food is less aromatic / less tasty. also, try mixing a little cream and water in with any grinds. Ferret usuually like warmer foods, but when the tummy is sensitive, more smell/taste may be revolting.
jennifer
|
|
|
Post by Sherry on May 26, 2011 9:05:10 GMT -5
Had this nice long post written up last night, but the blasted comp. froze on me when I hit "reply" To sum up: I'd forgotten to put in WHEN I tried the CLO. It was the Sunday night where he refused to eat his meal. The evening with the panc. enzyme, I'd put it on just before giving it to them, and just a pinch. Should I try it again with him, or just leave it out for now til the pred has time to work(we are going tonight, and I'm going to tell the Dr. we really need to try it). And just in case you missed it, here's what we have to do to get any meds into him, which is why I'm concerned about giving the pred and/or carafate: Can't scruff him without him twisting and crying out. Can't burrito wrap him for the same reason! He has GOT to be the most stubborn liitle creature I've ever seen. To get anything like that into him, he has to be wrapped tightly as in burrito wrapping, have to basically lay my upper body on him to control his body, hold his head still with one hand and try to get the med into him while also trying to hold his mouth closed so it doesn't come right back out again.Needless to say, I'm worried about him not taking it in the bit of soup I'm going to try it in, especially if I have to give carafate prior to the pred. And no- he refuses fish in any way, shape, or form(of course ) I've been trying to give the food lukewarm, since he's been refusing it either cold or warmed slightly.
|
|
|
Post by Sherry on May 26, 2011 9:43:10 GMT -5
One more thing to add. I know this is going to sound disgusting, but his poops this morning(and during the night) were, well- the best way to describe them is what it looks like if someone has a sinus infection, and starts clearing it out. Sort of slimy, tannish, yellowish, and a bit of greenish all mixed in. And very loose. No idea if this is from an infection, or is directly IBD related. Going to try him on some lamb grind this morning, mixed with some heavy cream, see if he'll take it willingly.
|
|
|
Post by weezz on May 26, 2011 19:07:52 GMT -5
Keeping Boris in my thoughts. I know the IBD thing is rough going.
I found over the years that the ones with IBD are very finicky about their food... what they liked one day, they won't the next (at least I know that's true with kibble). Has it been the same with raw?
Also, IBD is such a catch-all. Diarrhea can also be caused by Adrenal and intestinal lymphoma. Have these been ruled out?
|
|
|
Post by Sherry on May 26, 2011 19:16:50 GMT -5
Yes, they have. And Boris has been "finicky" since day one, at 9 months of age But thank you for your good wishes the really great thing is that Jennifer(mustelidmusk) has been my mentor also since day one with the switch So having her as a "mentor" for Boris' IBD feels...natural ;D
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on May 27, 2011 11:16:27 GMT -5
Glad Jennifer is able to help. Her advice is always a godsend with the sickies.
|
|