nannah
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Raw and Whole Prey Feeder
Posts: 232
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Post by nannah on Apr 25, 2019 22:35:50 GMT -5
Hey there! decided to make a new thread since the other one's title didn't fit and everything got a bit complicated.
basically: Kinga, my 5yo (estimated) female ferret is getting incredibly picky with her food, isn't eating during the evening (anything), and she's gotten sleepier, falling into DFS more often. my vet (the bad one) gave her vaccines earlier this year that 1. I shouldn't have done in the 1st place, thank u for telling me, and 2. gave her a bad reaction.
so anyway, that's up to today, when Kinga got an ultrasound bc it looked like something was up with her gi tract. a small animal specialist did the ultrasound, but she didn't understand the results either, so the vet is gonna go on her boards to research and asked me to do the same. .....
What we have: - kinga has a cluster of reactive nodes in her abdomen - mesenteric? (right spelling?) I just took down what i heard - her adrenals are a bit large (.4 - normal is .39, but because she's so tiny it was worthy to take note of this). she's wondering if maybe the des implant does something to size? and if so, because it's almost time for her next dose, if they're getting larger ((again?)) because the implant is wearing off? - the right adrenal isn't the right shape ... - and there's a little cyst up in her abdominal region
does anyone recognize anything and can help me right away? otherwise I'm gonna look around as always
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Post by Heather on Apr 26, 2019 11:27:14 GMT -5
When was her last DES implant? They can go as close together as 4 months but the common for treating adrenal is 6. As the DES usually maintains size, sometimes shrinks, your vet has reason to be concerned. Can any of the cysts be reached for a needle aspirit to possibly diagnose? The mesenteric lymphnodes may be she's fighting an infection, or you may be looking at lymphoma. ciao
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nannah
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Raw and Whole Prey Feeder
Posts: 232
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Post by nannah on Apr 28, 2019 19:19:41 GMT -5
I think she got her Des implant December 20th, so it's actually ... not as far a way as the vet and I thought it was ... ?
I actually just got the final and detailed report of her ultrasound today:
- The liver is normal in appearance. - The gall bladder is moderate in size. The bile is anechoic and no wall thickening is present. - A large 1.45cm cyst is present along the left liver border, ventral to the stomach. The tissue of origin of this cyst is not known. Reactive mesentery and prominent lymph nodes are also present in this region. - The spleen is prominent but normal in shape and echogenicity. Size is considered normal for an anesthetized ferret. - The stomach was empty and appeared normal. - The left kidney measured 2.5cm in length and the internal detail appeared decreased. The right kidney as 1.97cm. - The left adrenal was mildly enlarged, measuring 0.38cm and 0.5cm in width of the cranial and caudal poles. The maximum width of the right adrenal was 0.42cm at the caudal pole and 0.33cm at the cranial pole. - The urinary bladder was moderate in size and normal. Urine was clear. - Several prominent mid-abdominal mesenteric lymph nodes were present. - Small intestinal segments had normal layers.
Assessment: The abdominal ultrasound revealed the following abnormalities: 1. Cyst between the liver and stomach 2. Prominent lymph nodes 3. Plump adrenal glands 4. Reduction of detail of the kidneys Recommendations: Screening for Cushings disease can be done. We also discussed exploratory surgery to evaluate the cyst and aspirate of biopsy the lymph nodes due to concern of lymphoma.
I've never heard of Cushing's for ferrets. google searching is coming up with little results, too; isn't it usually cats or dogs? so it's basically hypercortisolism, aka too much cortisol, but that ... doesn't tell me much. they usually gain weight, right? but Kinga is steadily losing weight and her appetite (she's now 6.5g; she used to be 7+ last year)
what do you suggest? would the surgery be too hard on her do you think? or should that be the next step?
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Post by Sherry on Apr 29, 2019 5:39:02 GMT -5
Ferrets don't get cushing's. They get adrenal disease. Time to redo her implant and see if that makes a difference. I would however talk to the vet about getting her on high dose pred for the growth on the liver.
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Post by Heather on Apr 29, 2019 12:45:30 GMT -5
I agree with Sherry. That's adrenal and sounds like she may be fighting lymphoma too How you go about fighting that you need to discuss with your vet. You can try surgery and get confirmation as to what you're fighting. Many treat with pred. You can also do chemo, which you will have to discuss with your vet, sometimes the protocols are not locally available ciao
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nannah
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Raw and Whole Prey Feeder
Posts: 232
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Post by nannah on Apr 29, 2019 17:16:15 GMT -5
ahhh thanks for all your help!!
so I got a reply from my vet after telling her what you both recommended, and she told me the cystic unknown mass is in the cranial abdomen than for the lymphoma (I didn't know this ... and the report said otherwise, I thought?).
--- "The nodes were too small to biopsy via needle during ultrasound (that's a good thing). This is why she recommended an explore. It would be truly to find out what is wrong. We would not be going in to "fix" something-- though I have done adrenalectomy as a therapy when one is significantly larger than the other. If the cyst could be resected, I would recommend it. The cyst is the really abnormal thing about this ultrasound.
Cushings is the layman's term for hyperadrenocorticism. Yes, the symptoms in ferrets are quite different than those in dogs.
As far as what to do next, I am fine with repeating the deslorelin and beginning an antibiotic. If this doesn't improve her appetite with a week, I would recommend either a recheck ultrasound or an explore. We still have the adrenal panel to think about, ideally before the deslorelin.
I do have some question as to whether deslorelin could have caused any of the symptoms we now have.
I would avoid putting a ferret on pred for lymphoma until we are sure this is the problem, especially if she has adrenal disease, as the active ingredient is the same as cortisol which goes high with adrenal disease. We would essentially be giving meds to cause adrenal disease."
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okay ... does des cause low appetite? or any of these symptoms? I know des can "cover up" symptoms of insulinoma (aka meds do weird things to ferrets & their other illnesses), but does pred cause adrenal disease??
& does what she recommends doing (repeating des & an antibiotic for a week) sound like the way to go? or should I be doing an exploration to find out the nature of that cyst? she's been pushing this adrenal panel, but from what I've researched and talked about with you guys before, it seems to be kind of ... (what's the word) ... superfluous I guess? And that if ferrets have the symptoms it's better to treat them directly than take the time & money to diagnose. But I keep getting shoved one way there.
I'd appreciate any help you can give. I appreciate you guys and this forum so much.
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Post by unclejoe on Apr 30, 2019 16:31:55 GMT -5
Pred is a corticosteroid, so your vet is right on that point. I would not opt for an adrenalectomy. The left adrenal is slightly enlarged, but I would go for more DES over surgery to remove it. The cyst is large enough to be a concern, tho. You have to understand that ferrets are not great surgery patients. A lot of them do fine, but a lot do not. Age and other medical conditions have a big effect on outcomes. 5 years old is getting up there. If it was me, I would just do the Suprelorin and monitor the cyst. The cyst could be benign. But you have to decide if it's worth the risk to biopsy.
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nannah
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Raw and Whole Prey Feeder
Posts: 232
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Post by nannah on May 5, 2019 20:12:33 GMT -5
it's been a week since I've heard back from the vet ... after agreeing to giving Kinga another des implant and an antibiotic, and then check back a week after that (and continuing to monitor that cyst, like unclejoe said). We've agreed on what to do, but I can't make an appointment! I've emailed, I've called ... nothing. the lady who answered my call said she wouldn't book an appt without checking with the vet, but then no one called me back. gonna call and then physically visit the place if i can't get anywhere from the call tomorrow; this is ridiculous. I feel like I'm being avoided ?? this isn't really an update, but I just needed to vent some anxiety.
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Post by abbeytheferret6 on May 6, 2019 4:07:01 GMT -5
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Post by Sherry on May 6, 2019 5:44:04 GMT -5
That is bizarre in the extreme. Just an FYI, the panel is basically useless. Too many false negatives. And no, pred does not cause adrenal, nor does it appear to have any real effect on it. And if you don't have to do surgery, don't.
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nannah
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Raw and Whole Prey Feeder
Posts: 232
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Post by nannah on May 6, 2019 16:16:29 GMT -5
Oof. I got a talking-to. (huge exhale) I feel very guilty.
My vet asked me to go somewhere else to seek a specialist and told me I shouldn't email her her more, saying, "I am to busy to continue to consult you via e-mail as evidenced by how long it takes me to respond."
She also said "Your forum's education is not a DVM degree", etc. I don't think she likes me coming here for advice; she said I needed a vet I can trust (aka more than these boards, I think .... :S ) So yeah, I do feel guilty, even though, I know this is true? But I still feel bad.
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Post by abbeytheferret6 on May 7, 2019 18:48:57 GMT -5
Do not feel guilty. Kind of same thing happened to me ---not as rude though---LOL After taking 700.00, I asked should I do a follow up on a particular test because I had concerns about it, and he said I would suggest following whatever Dr. Powers wants to do at this point. She is your primary point of care and will have a great plan moving forward.
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nannah
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Raw and Whole Prey Feeder
Posts: 232
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Post by nannah on May 7, 2019 21:19:15 GMT -5
Okay, that makes me feel a bit better, haha. I still feel a bit guilty, but I'll try to deal with it.
The recommended specialist is in Madison, 2.5 hours away. because of my own disabilities/issues, I can't drive there on my own :S but I'm trying to make plans with my mother (crosses fingers). I'm going to talk with the specialist tomorrow on the phone to try to work something out.
btw, is it normal to have a vet closer to do like ... checkups and normal things and then a specialist to go to for surgeries and stuff you can't get from a "regular" vet? I'd be embarrassed to see the vet here, but it's a little hard for me personally to go to this vet as it is for the little things. if I had to? I would try. or at least a different one than the current vet ,but still one closer than 2.5 hours.
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nannah
Junior Member
Raw and Whole Prey Feeder
Posts: 232
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Post by nannah on May 8, 2019 22:26:01 GMT -5
it looks like the specialist wants to do the exploratory surgery as the next option too ... I'm just extremely frightened about this whole thing, because it goes against what you guys have been telling me, right? and you've gone through this before with your own ferrets, I assume, right? but I've already gone against my vet's advice numerous times --> now they're both telling me I shouldn't have convinced her to do the Des implant, either ... or something or that why would I do it twice a year, etc. I think I'm just very confused now. and --I should also mention maybe -- I have OCD, so like ... it's SO hard for me not to know EVERYTHING before I go and do something, and that's maybe what's bothered my vet (maybe I should have told her); why i needed ALL the opinions from every source I could get before okaying something, just because it's so big and means a lot to me. anyway... i just feel like i'm completely lost.
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Post by abbeytheferret6 on May 9, 2019 5:09:42 GMT -5
Because Petco sells ferrets---they may have a vet or two they can recommend for the little things. Then again, you can send her one more email and explain everything and if she is not sympathetic, just write her off.
To me a Des implant is a great thing to do for your ferrets. This is the first year I have done it. I wished I would have started during my babies' first year of life, but I was afraid to put a chemical in my ferrets.
My exotic vet is for it. The first time I brought in my craigslist girl ( 1 year old), she told me --- if she was hers, she would implant her--but I did not until this year, and now she is pushing 6. (anyway, my vet said they can remove the implants if they have a reaction---which I have not heard of any)
The ferret owners here feel the same way you do too. You just can't blindly do things without knowing the pros and the cons.
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