Maja01's Switching Thread / Hurricanekatt

[Heather]

Name: Maja
HF Forum Username: maja01
Please confirm that you are 18 years of age or older: yes

1. Where did you first learn about natural diets for ferrets? internet, books

2. Please describe the type of diet you would like assistance in switching your ferret(s) to. Be sure to include if you are interested in feeding whole prey (live or frozen-thawed) and if you are wanting to FULLY switch to a natural diet or PARTIALLY. If you are unsure what kind of diet you want to put your ferrets on, please express that and we can help you find the best type of natural diet for your ferret.
Full raw & whole prey

3. Why are you interested in switching your ferrets to a natural diet? Because of the tremendous impact food has on health. And I want just the best for my ferrets.

4. Do you understand that switching your ferret to a natural diet can be a lengthy, arduous process? Its not an overnight switch. It requires a commitment of several months at minimum. Your HF Mentor will be more then happy to assist you in switching your ferret(s) to a natural diet, but you need to be equally as committed. The switch takes time and effort every single day. It can also be extremely frustrating at times. If you aren't willing to tough out a potentially lengthy switching process, you have major life changes approaching (baby on the way, moving, starting school, getting married/divorced, etc), or limited time due to work, then it might be a better idea to wait on switching your ferret's diet until you have more time. Are you willing and realistically able to make the neccessary time commitment? Yes.

5. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names? Ages? Genders? Do they have any health problems? Are they overweight? Underweight? How long have you had each ferret for?
Currently 5.
Chili, cca 6 yrs, male, castrated, implant. IBD, adrenal. Slightly underweight (gaining weight after strict diet). I have him for 4,5 years, he is a permanent foster, rescued from a petstore.

Iorek, 1 yr and 8 mths, male, castrated + implant. None really (except from missing ear, wich does not count). Normal weight. I have him since he was 7-8 weeks, he is one of the earless babies rescued due to croatian ferret association.

Drdra, 8 months, female, intact, high % hybrid. Healthy. Normal weight. I have her since she was 3,5 months old.

Gusztav, 8 months, male, intact. Helathy. Normal weight - for young intact male in winter time ... I have him since he was 3,5 months old.

Vincent Vega, cca 1,5 yrs, male, intact for few more days - he will be vasectomised. Has extracted both upper canines due to bad injury, othervise healthy. Slightly underweight (he is in the process of gaining weight - he was adopted quite recently. I have him since few days before Christmas, so for about a month.

6. What diet do you currently feed your ferrets? (Please include all treats, supplements, etc) Do they already eat some form of soup?
They are on frakenprey and whole prey diet.

Chili is supplemented with taurine (his diet is not quite balanced yet, since we are still trying what he can eat and what not), calcium (if needed) - if he does not eat enough of bones, reishi oil, omega 3.

Treats - dried meat
+ occasionally a lick of malt pasta (I know ... but they really get it like less than 6 g/ferret/month - I calculated few days ago).
omega3 all of them.

7. Have you ever tried to switch your ferrets to a natural diet in the past? If yes, what happened?
They got switched Some sooner, some later ... All got nicer, got nicer coats, I could regulate their insulinomas better, ...

8. What additional information about yourself or your ferrets would you like to share?
I am a long time ferret owner, in few months will be 15 years since I got my first ferret, Kuna. I am a founder & president of Slovenian Ferret lovers association wich mainly deals with education of ferret owners, prospective ferret owners, vets, ... Also we take care of abandoned and unwanted ferrets in our country. We also work closely together with our colegues from Croatia.
I also ran a nonprofit organisation for exotic species for few years.
In "my free time" I study veterinary medicine in University of Ljubljana and I volunteered for a while in our faculty's clinic for exotics. Somehow ran out of spare time so I just help them occasionally now. I am also a student of A.C.A.N.
Beside my work with animals I do some graphic design projects and work as a nutritional coach.

9. How often during the week do you have access to a computer? Daily.

10. Please post a picture of each of your ferrets (if possible).
Chili

Hi and welcome to the mentoring program . In a little while your mentor (Hurricanekatt), will introduce herself and you can get started on a new adventure in natural ferret care and diets. Please remember to post regularly (daily or as per arranged with your mentor) so that your mentor can assist you move along safely in this adventure. If you experience computer difficulties or are going to be away, please notify your mentor and most of all relax and have fun . Your mentor is here to help you on this journey.
ciao

[katt]

Hi!! So glad to be working with you! I'll try to copy my usual intro later when I'm on my computer instead of my phone. My understanding is your business already eat raw, and we mostly need to ensure that it is properly balanced correct? Let's start out with a detailed description of what you currently feed - the more detail the better. It's helpful to know your general feeding routine (e.g. Feed morning and evening and leave food in the cage 24/7), what a week's worth of meals typically is, and what different types of meat you offer them. Also, if there is anything specific you want help with like say if one ferret doesn't want to eat his beef chunks or anything like that, just say the word.

Also - what year in vet school are you? Is it a 4 year program there like it is here (after 4 years of undergrad), or a 6 year program right out of high school? I know every country does things a little differently so I'm super curious.

[maja01]

Hi
Yes, they are allready on raw, I just want to make sure is ok. I think all others have pretty much balanced diet, except for Chili. But lets go first thing first ...

I feed a mix of frankenprey and whole prey. They don't have fixed meals (I don't do: monday morning chicken wings, monday evening beef hearts, ...), instead I have a little board on wich I mark what kind of meals they have eaten trough the week. When come from shopping, I just pack the weighted meals.

I make organ mix - I buy a stash weekly / on two weeks basis and mix whatever I have. Sometimes I mix only different organs, sometimes I add hearts in it. For instance now we have: beef kidneys, beef testicles, pigs brains (small amount) and pig (?) spleen. In this batch I have rabbit livers separatly, usualy is in the mix allready.
The main proteins are chicken, rabbit, swine, beef, mice, rats. Occasionaly they get duck, horse, turkey. They had hamsters, I am getting quails finally this end of the week and I have a guinea pig in a freezer wich I just haven't decided to feed yet. Not because of the ferrets, I belive they will have no problems with it - it is just me ... I am not really comfortable with it since I had piggies as pets and I like them a lot.
They get quail or chicken eggs on weekly basis.

I don't write down their menue, so I will just copy what was on a menue for one week back in the begining of january (I was writting it as an example menue for raw feeder satus):

monday morning: whole rats
monday evening: organ mix + heart (liver, spleen, testicles, kidney, heart) - swine, beef

tuesday morning: chicken backs (bones in meat)
tuesday evening: beef lungs (meat)

wednesday morning: rabbit heads (I count them as whole, since they eat everything - bones, muscles, eyes, tongue, brain)
wednesday evening: organ mix (liver, kidney, spleen) - horse (premixed - comercial)

thursday morning: chicken backs (bones in meat)
thursday evening: chicken backs (bones in meat)

friday morning: rabbit chunks (meat)
friday evening: swine heart

saturday morning: rabbit (bones in meat)
saturday evening: rabbit (bones in meat) - one got an extra heart

sunday morning: swine & beef chunks (meat)
sunday evening: chicken backs (bones in meat)

[maja01]

This is the board - the basic is 7 meals bone in meat, 4 meat, 1,5 organ mix, 1,5 hearts. I might feed some more hearts sometimes (instead of meat meal) and I do adjust the menue depending on what and how many whole prey meals do they get.

In a first column are ferrets C = Chili, I&D (Iorek & Drdra), G = Gusztav, V = Vega. I could merge Gusztav and Vega now, since Vega recovered fully after teeth sugery and is eating everything now (for a while he was mostly on mixed food, since it was hard for him to chew + he was only beeing transitioned to fully raw and he did not particulary like the organs).

Then on the top are marked meals MK = bones in meat, M = meat, O = organs, heart is herat, C = whole

[maja01]

Sorry for posting in more messages - but I have bad experiences with forums and log posts ... You write down like a novel and when you want to post it (and of course you don't save it) it just get stuck somewhere and you get an error ...

Chili routine is different then others - he was diagnosed with IBD at the end of the year and he is on strict diet. We started with rabbit and was ok, than I added rats wich are also ok, than wanted to try if he can eat pork (it is pretty simple to get swine organs and meat here) but it did not end well ... So it took some time to get him back on a normal poop. I added mice and he got two hamsters for now.
Rabbit is basic and he gets pretty much everything of rabbit body (including the organs, heads excluded). He eats smaller bones - ribs, scapula, some pieces of vertebra and some pieces of leg bones. I crush all the bones (except ribbs), so there are smaller pieces, since he won't eat them if I leave them whole.
Rats, mice and hamsters - he eats whole, with fur and not gutted. With bigger rats ... he might leave me some of the gut.
For a while - until his poop stabilizes (this will be at least a week) I will not give him any new proteins. Tough ... I am getting those quails and would like to try it. Or maybee fish ...

So, some more of how they are fed and how they live.
Chili is the only one living inside 24/7. He has his cage wich is open most of the time, so he can free roam the whole lower part of the house. It is ferret proofed and he is that kind of ferret that does not invent some stupid stuff on daily basis.
He is fed in his cage, twice daily or sometimes if he demands even three or four times (I was writting about this here: holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/19842/chili-ibd-eating-lot). His eating is now starting to be more normal, but still eats quite a lot.

Unaltered boys (Vega & Gusztav) live together, they are either on a covered terrace or in an enclosure (i swithc the groups) and have daily access to a house - I let both of he groups (separatly) on a play sesions usualy once a day.
They also get food twice - in the morning and in the evening. They eat pretty much everything, I might found stashes when they are fed rabbit heads. I let them have it for 48 hours, if it is really cold even some longer. But now, when warmer days are coming I wont let them for longer.

Drdra and Iorek live together - they are separated from the boys for obvious reason (both boys are in full rut ...). I do let Iorek for a play session with the boys, but it depend on a day - sometimes they play nice, other times the only thing what Gusztav want is to ... They are also switched from terrace to an enclosure and let in for play sessions. Those two have pretty much the same menue as the boys, tough there are some days when they get different meal or they don't eat everything I gave them and so they skip one of the boy's meal.

The four youngsters eat everything I give them, they might not like some of the organs (spleen and sometimes kidneys), so if there is a combo of this organs I make them "smoothie" and throw some of the heart in ...
The only one not eating bigger bones is Chili, but I supplement it with bonemeal if I feel he is not eating enough of it (it is much better since I crush the bones - I was not doing it at the begining, since he was used to raw food for years and he had no problem with eating chicken bones ...).

The school ... here we have like 9 years of primary school, than you go for 4 years in high scool (some have programs that are more specific - like you become a vet tech if you finish one of those or more general) and than you go to university. Veterinary medicine program is now 6 years long (it was 5, but they changed it few years ago), I am in 4th year. I am kind of specific when it comes to study ... I do it beside working (I have to pay for the bills ...) so I don't do it like I should do it ... I might take a year off or so. But since I know quite a lot about ferrets, I am alowed to be part of certain projects, research groups (influenza, corona virus, I am working now on canine distemper elisa project) and I volountered for a while in our exotic clinic. I don't have time to do it now (I had to cut some of things I did in the past, since I had a serious burned out syndrome few years ago ... and I can not play with my health again), I just drop by few times a month or when I am tehre with my own (or foster) ferrets. But since I have years of experiences and I know quite some things about ferrets, I get consulted with lot of vets treating ferrets here or in the neighbouring Croatia and I am pretty much involved in all "the interesting cases" in our university clinic.
So I will just have to pass some of the exams this year and get to that fifth grade this year. One is in the plan allready.

[katt]

That's awesome. I completely understand about the burnout. Here in the US you do grade school (your primary school) for 9 years, then high school 4 years. THEN after that we do 4 years of undergraduate college, and then 4 years of vet or medical school. I'm currently a 3rd year medical student (human medicine), so I have just under a year and a half until I graduate. Then I will be a doctor but will still have about 4 years of residency before I can practice medicine on my own without supervision. haha I worked throughout my undergraduate years and got super burned out. It's definitely not easy balancing both!! Taking some extra time to take care of your own health is so, SO important. <3

So back to the task at hand... haha Your diet looks fantastic. The variety and balance are both great. I really don't have anything to add or correct at this point!

Because the goal is to get you on board with mentoring, I'll just go through and cover a few details to make sure that you are familiar with some of the guidelines we recommend on the forum, and why. Rather than preach about stuff you already know, I'll just post some of our quiz questions that we give people before graduating the mentoring program. Then if there's anything you aren't sure about or don't know we can fill in the gaps. Sorry it's a long list, I just want to make sure we don't skip anything - most of the questions should just be super short answers though.

1.) You have run out of heart, how much taurine supplement should your ferrets get? (be specific)
2.) List 2 good sources of taurine.
3.) How can you tell if your ferret is getting too much or too little bone?
4.) Why are cooked bones dangerous and raw bones safe?
5.) Organs should consist of approximately how much liver, and how much "other" organ?
6.) What percent of the diet should be organ?
7.) Are gizzards a muscle meat, or an organ?
8.) Is it a good idea to mix muscle meat, bone in and organs all in one meal. Explain why.
9.) How many different proteins does a ferret need in a week at a Minimum?
10.) Is it best to feed the egg whites, egg yolk, or the entire egg?
11.) How much and how often can egg be fed?
12.) Are leaner meats better for your ferret or fattier meats?
13.) Is dark or white meat a better purchase choice?
14.) Why is cooking meat generally considered inadvisable?
15.) How long does each type of meat generally stay good when left in the cage: raw soup, ground meat, med-large chunks, bone-in meats, whole prey?

[maja01]

1.) You have run out of heart, how much taurine supplement should your ferrets get? (be specific)
If it is for the short term, you don't have to bother at all, as all meat has some taurine in it (so a ferret will not be completlly without it anyway). Yes, some meat has lower content, but as far as the diet is balanced and there is a variety, there is no worry.

If, you can not get hearts at all, or for a longer period of time, than I would first suggest to try other sources of taurine like (beef) tongues. And only if you can not get this, or if the ferret can not tolerate it because of any reason, go for the supplement.

Well ... the exact dose of taurine for ferrets it is not known. It is extrapolated from the cat dose - wich is 250-1000 mg/cat (most supplenets labels read 250-500 mg). Since excess taurine is not stored in the body, you can not overdose it.


2.) List 2 good sources of taurine.
hearts (beef especially), tongue, brain (but is high in fat, so be carefull and don't feed it as often ...)

3.) How can you tell if your ferret is getting too much or too little bone?
By the poop consistency - if they are hard there is too much bone in the diet, if they are too soft all the time, there is not enough bone in it.

4.) Why are cooked bones dangerous and raw bones safe?
Because the temperature changes consistency of the bone - they bocome hard and they split in sharp pieces.

5.) Organs should consist of approximately how much liver, and how much "other" organ?
half liver, half other organ (from the diet's perspective this would be 5% liver, 5% "other")

6.) What percent of the diet should be organ?
10% (look above)

7.) Are gizzards a muscle meat, or an organ?
muscle meat (it is a really strong muscle, imagine that it has to crush the corn and other grains the chick eats - ok, with a littlehelp of stones and send particles, but still)

8.) Is it a good idea to mix muscle meat, bone in and organs all in one meal. Explain why.
It depends on a stage of transitioning.
If we are talking about a ferret that is fully on raw and the owner knows allready how many bones in meat the ferret requires, knows what is balanced diet and what are ferrets normal poops, than this is ok, especialy in the mix is in a form of whole prey.
If we are talking about ferrets who are in the process of transition, than this for me it is not the best. First in this way it is hard to track what and how much do you feed, it is hard to track if something is causing problems (like runny poops), adjusting the bone in meat content figuring out what a ferret does eat or does not (stashing).

9.) How many different proteins does a ferret need in a week at a Minimum?
3

10.) Is it best to feed the egg whites, egg yolk, or the entire egg?
entire is the best. with shell if possible.
Or - if you just have too ... than yolk.

11.) How much and how often can egg be fed?
1 chicken egg per ferret per week.

12.) Are leaner meats better for your ferret or fattier meats?
In general - fattier. But again it depends on individual ferret (and his condition) - how much of what he should get (by no means any ferret should get only chicken breast for instance)

13.) Is dark or white meat a better purchase choice?
It is the best to mix it, but red meat is a must.
(it slightly depends on what are definitions of white and dark meat - it might depend on a country, cousine, science ... In cousine they consider all polutry to be white, while if you look from scientific point of view is other way (it goes by the muscle fibre ratio and mioglobine content). It also depends on a way animal is fed and where does it live - free range/cage)
The best in every diet is that is varied - in this way you make sure the animal is getting all the nutrients it has to.

14.) Why is cooking meat generally considered inadvisable?
Because it destroys most of the nutrients.

15.) How long does each type of meat generally stay good when left in the cage: raw soup, ground meat, med-large chunks, bone-in meats, whole prey?

raw soup: 6-8 h (it depends on temperature, so 8h if the temps are loewer and 6 if it is warmer)
ground meat: 8-12 h
med-large chunks: slightly depends on a size - larger can last up to 24 h, smaller 10 h.
bone in meats: 12-24 h (again, it depends on temperature)
whole prey: depends on a size, temperature - if you rip it open or feed whole, but up to 48 h


btw, the youngster got whole fish (in english it would be whiting/merling) for the first time yesterday - except for Vega they were not thrilled, but they eate them all.

With medicine here is similar - after you graduate, you also have to do some residency - I don't know for how long, but is for few years. And I think that there is some stuff you have to do (like general practice) and if you want to specialize in some field (like surgery, ...) than you have to do it extra. But am not really sure about that.

[katt]

Your answers look great (as I expected haha). I have 1-2 comments to add when I can get on from my computer and I'll shoot you a PM so check your messages.