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Post by Heather on Jan 30, 2016 0:17:06 GMT -5
Name: Jackie Faehn HF Forum Username: Booker Please confirm that you are 18 years of age or older: Yes, 21 1. Where did you first learn about natural diets for ferrets? Here! I think I was searching to find some good litter and came across this forum by chance, haha 2. Please describe the type of diet you would like assistance in switching your ferret(s) to. Be sure to include if you are interested in feeding whole prey (live or frozen-thawed) and if you are wanting to FULLY switch to a natural diet or PARTIALLY. If you are unsure what kind of diet you want to put your ferrets on, please express that and we can help you find the best type of natural diet for your ferret. Fully switch to frankenprey 3. Why are you interested in switching your ferrets to a natural diet? Health, definitely 4. Do you understand that switching your ferret to a natural diet can be a lengthy, arduous process? Its not an overnight switch. It requires a commitment of several months at minimum. Your HF Mentor will be more then happy to assist you in switching your ferret(s) to a natural diet, but you need to be equally as committed. The switch takes time and effort every single day. It can also be extremely frustrating at times. If you aren't willing to tough out a potentially lengthy switching process, you have major life changes approaching (baby on the way, moving, starting school, getting married/divorced, etc), or limited time due to work, then it might be a better idea to wait on switching your ferret's diet until you have more time. Are you willing and realistically able to make the necessary time commitment? Yes and yes! I have one extremely stubborn fuzzy 5. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names? Ages? Genders? Do they have any health problems? Are they overweight? Underweight? How long have you had each ferret for? Four: Koi, F, 3.25 yo, had her 3 years, 1.9 lbs, underweight, prone to blockages Pocky, F, 3.25 yo, had her 3 years, 2.0 lbs, no health problems Booker, M, 2.75 yo, had him 2 years, 3.0 lbs, no health problems Ciel, M, 2.5 yo, had him 2 years, 3.3 lbs, overweight, possible Waardy, no health problems 6. What diet do you currently feed your ferrets? (Please include all treats, supplements, etc) Do they already eat some form of soup? NVI chicken for the last month, Evo before that. 50/50 Ferretone & EVOO, treat. Soup for 2 days now. 7. Have you ever tried to switch your ferrets to a natural diet in the past? If yes, what happened? No 8. What additional information about yourself or your ferrets would you like to share? Nothing of note 9. How often during the week do you have access to a computer? Constant Hi and welcome to the mentoring program . In a little while your mentor ( Celene ), will introduce herself and you can get started on a new adventure in natural ferret care and diets. Please remember to post regularly (daily or as per arranged with your mentor) so that your mentor can assist you move along safely in this adventure. If you experience computer difficulties or are going to be away, please notify your mentor and most of all relax and have fun :boing:. Your mentor is here to help you on this journey. ciao
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Post by Celene on Jan 30, 2016 1:04:19 GMT -5
Welcome @booker! I will be your mentor through the rest of your transition! I will write a longer welcome post in the morning, but for now you can read a little more about me here.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2016 21:24:45 GMT -5
Thanks! It's exciting to finally get to this stage! I'm working on packing and moving to the new apartment tonight and tomorrow. I can post updates and weights and such by Monday afternoon.
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Post by Celene on Jan 31, 2016 0:25:46 GMT -5
That would be great! I moved in September with only 1-2 weeks notice so I definitely understand how hectic it can be!!
I've read through your previous switching thread, but it would be a good idea to lay it all out here at the beginning for reference, so when you get a chance, please fill out the following:
Koi Gender: Age: Weight: Health Issues: Current Diet: Biggest transitioning challenges so far: Photo!
Pocky Gender: Age: Weight: Health Issues: Current Diet: Biggest transitioning challenges so far: Photo!
Booker Gender: Age: Weight: Health Issues: Current Diet: Biggest transitioning challenges so far: Photo!
Ciel Gender: Age: Weight: Health Issues: Current Diet: Biggest transitioning challenges so far: Photo!
If you could also post your current weekly menu, that would be great! For each meal include the protein (i.e. chicken, lamb, etc.), whether bone-in, and so on. Monday AM: Monday PM: Tuesday AM: Tuesday PM: Wednesday AM: Wednesday PM: Thursday AM: Thursday PM: Friday AM: Friday PM: Saturday AM: Saturday PM: Sunday AM: Sunday PM:
Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2016 3:26:08 GMT -5
Sorry, moving took a lot longer than expected. Should be one last trip, but the weather decided to throw a snow storm in the way, haha. Thanks for understanding! Koi:Female 3.5 years old Underweight, prone to blockages Challenges include trying to put on weight and keeping her healthy enough to avoid bacterial overgrowth again Pocky:Female 3.5 years old None Challenges include trying to coax her into eating on her own Booker:Male 3 years old (his birthday is today!) Weight fluctuates due to finicky eating Challenges include being extremely stubborn when eating, he lasted 3 and a half days without eating (I finally broke and fed him soup again) when starting chunks Ciel:Male 2.5 years old Overweight, overeating, does not seem to know when to stop eating, kit mentality, possible Waardy No challenges! He eats everything I give him Currently they are all on large chunks and off of soup. Pics tomorrow when I cut up more meat. I have not been feeding them balanced, but have been trying to get them used to eating muscle and organs, for Booker's sake. For the last week or so they have been on a cycle. - Day 1 & 2: Pork shoulder chunks, large, 8 oz per day
- Day 3: Pork shoulder chunks, medium, approx. 6 oz. Pork heart chunks, small, 4 oz
- Day 4: Pork shoulder chunks, large, 8 oz. Chicken wing, large, bone-in
- Day 5: Pork shoulder chunks, large, 6 oz. Pork liver chunks, small, 1-2 oz depending on what they finish
- Day 6: Chicken/CGH wings (2-3, depending on appetite), large
The pork shoulder keeps Booker eating, otherwise I would try to change it up more. As is, he turns up his nose when I add organs, even though he loves pork. He also loves chicken wings, so I have been using that to give them more than one protein. He seems to love bone, so I'm hoping to use that to progress more. Booker and Koi seem to have a sustainable weight right now, but it's a bit lighter than I'd like. Anyway, I'll try to get pics and weights tomorrow
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Post by Celene on Feb 3, 2016 11:32:03 GMT -5
Happy birthday Booker!! Did you notice we updated the forum's background just for him? Right off the bat I would agree that your menu isn't balanced. I'm sure you have seen this before, but I am posting the frankenprey menu below for reference - this is what we try and duplicate to make sure our fuzzies get all the nutrition they need. Monday am: edible bone in meat Monday pm: edible bone in meat (or muscle)* Tuesday am: edible bone in meat Tuesday pm: muscle meat Wednesday am: edible bone in meat Wednesday pm: heart Thursday am: edible bone in meat Thursday pm: edible bone in meat (or muscle)* Friday am: edible bone in meat Friday pm: ½ heart + ¼ liver + ¼ other organ Saturday am: edible bone in meat Saturday pm: muscle meat Sunday am: edible bone in meat Sunday pm: ½ liver + ½ other organ Proportionally, their diet should be a minimum of 10% heart*, exactly 10% organ (all liver for now is fine, but eventually should be 5% liver and 5% another organ like kidney, brain or pancreas), about 10%-15% bone (requirements can vary based on the individual ferret), with the remaining 60%-70% being muscle meat. In particular, your menu is very light on bone. I would recommend sprinkling finely crushed eggshell powder on the muscle meals just to make sure they are getting enough calcium while we work on incorporating more bone-in meals. Are all of your ferrets eating bone, or just booker? If you're having trouble getting them to eat organs, there are a couple options you can try to make it more enticing/palatable. - Try grinding the organs like soupies. This is actually how I do it, so I know they are getting equal amounts of everything and they can't, for example pick around the liver. Instead of feeding 1.5 meals of liver/organ and 1.5 meals of heart each week, I actually feed 3 meals of soupies which are 50% heart, 25% liver and 25% organ (currently kidney). I'm not sure how your math is, but it works out to the same ratios as the menu posted about. The advantages to this method are that the heart (which ferrets generally love) helps to make the liver taste better (I imagine, I haven't tried it) and soupies are easy to eat so ferrets won't generally ignore it and wait for the next/better meal instead.
- You can also try putting something on the liver to make it more enticing. You could try a treat such as salmon oil or egg yolk, or grind the pork into a soupie-sauce to dribble on top.
*Fun fact: Taurine (the main nutrient in hearts that is really important for ferrets) is water soluble meaning if they have lots of heart they will just pee out any extra taurine that their bodies don't need. Heart is considered a muscle meat and can be fed over and above the required 10%. If heart is not available for some reason, tongues and brains are also high in taurine as this amino acid is found in high concentrations in the muscles that are used most. All meat contains taurine, although animals that are kept in a pen and don't run much like rabbits are waayy lower in it.
Liver is full of many vitamins and important nutrients, although in particular it is VERY high in Vitamin A. Ferrets do need Vitamin A, although unlike taurine any excess actually builds up in their system and can cause toxicity if eaten in large amounts. That's why the liver/organ requirement is an exact amount and not a minimum.
Hopefully this wasn't too much information in one post, but (always) feel free to ask any and all questions you may have!
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Post by Celene on Feb 3, 2016 11:39:52 GMT -5
I should probably also mention that trying to get ferrets to try a new protein (rabbit, lamb, etc.) is like a little mini-switch each time since even ones that might look similar all smell and taste way different to ferrets! You can try things like putting salmon oil/egg yolk/a treat on a sliver of meat and hand feeding until they will eat on their own, pureeing/blending the meat first (and/or even mixing the blend with a known protein such as pork) and slowly increasing the proportion of new meat/size of chunks, or feeding a few meals in a row so they're FORCED to eat it or go hungry.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2016 22:00:58 GMT -5
Haha, yeah, I noticed the birthday background for the forum's 5th birthday. Pictures! Weights will have to wait for right now. My scale is in a ferret bin, which is in a bag, which is in my living room. I just haven't perfected my flying technique enough to reach it. My roommate and I have brought everything to the new place, so it's just a matter of organizing right now. Heart and pork sizes: Koi and Pocky (above), Booker (dangle) Koi (dangle), Ceil (dangle) Ceil (above), Booker (tried to get above) Pocky
I think I'll try the organ soup, it sounds much easier than worrying about who is eating what. Are there any other bone-in meals that would be good for beginners? The chicken wings work really well, but I'm not sure if there's anything else like that. Or even a way to cut/pound the meat to make a good starting point?
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Post by Celene on Feb 4, 2016 11:44:03 GMT -5
Based on the dangle photo, I would definitely say neither Koi nor anyone else appears underweight! Ferrets should be more of less straight up and down when you hold them, like a properly stuffed sausage - neither having a belly bulging out nor a defined waistline. Having said that, looks can be deceiving, especially in winter with fluffy coats. Another good rule of thumb is that you should be able to feel bones (ribs, spine, etc.) but not actually see them through their coat. And some ferrets (especially girls) are naturally petite. Here is a picture I took a couple weeks ago of my two girls, Mocha and Nova. Mocha (lighter coloured girl on the bottom) has a huge fluffy coat and looks much bigger, but when I weighed them the same day I was surprised to find out that Nova (sable on the top) was actually the heavier of the two! (For the record, they weigh about 1.4 lbs to 1.5 lbs) Your chunk sizes look good. If anybody is having trouble with them (or does when you start increasing size) one thing that can be helpful is to cut them more slug-shaped, i.e. longer and with tapered/pointy ends so the ferrets have a smaller place to start before they get into it and work towards the larger center. In addition to chicken wings, other good "starter" bones are the wings, necks and ribs of smaller birds (such as cornish game hen or quail), and rabbit ribs (I cut them like matchsticks into little french fries). Larger bones (and even smaller ones for beginner ferrets) can be chopped/broken up a little. I always heard people recommending a bag and hammer, but I found it made a HUGE mess and didn't really crack the bones at all. This is my method:
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Post by Celene on Feb 7, 2016 11:49:49 GMT -5
Just checking in! I know you're really busy with the move, but it would be great if you could check in at least every other day, just to let me know how things are going. They don't have to be long, detailed posts, just quick updates
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2016 17:59:55 GMT -5
I can definitely try to get a short update every other day. Well, I dug out my scale to finally process the meat I bought this weekend. I got a few Cornish game hens and some more pork with steak cuts so more will have thinner bones. I also added a sprinkling of bone meal on the pork I cut yesterday. Weights should be easy to get tonight, after an oatmeal bath (it's been 6 months since the last bath and they've been itching more lately). I should be getting a new cage for them today or tomorrow (whenever the delivery truck decides...), so my focus is cleaning for that. Finally getting a Ferret Nation. I'll be doing a batch of organs and starting them on that tonight, so we can see how that goes! I actually popped on here to double check the ratio in your previous post. Haha
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Post by Celene on Feb 9, 2016 18:33:18 GMT -5
Yay! Ferret Nation cages are awesome.
I would not recommend feeding bone in pork as the bones are very hard - in addition to being difficult to eat, they can also damage a ferret's teeth. Some pork cuts (such as pork "buttons" or "rib ends") do have cartilage they can eat, however this is not nutritionally equivalent to bone.
Good sources of bone-in meat includes chicken, turkey (ribs, wings and neck - legs are often too big and dense for ferrets), rabbit, quail, cornish game hen, frogs legs, and rodents.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2016 1:30:14 GMT -5
Weights! B 990 g / 2.18 lbs P 750 g / 1.65 lbs K 790 g / 1.74 lbs C 1260g / 2.78 lbs I'm kind of thinking that Ciel is taking way more than his share. He doesn't seem to know when to stop... I'm pretty sure he's a Waardy, but I'm starting to think he has the mental age of a young kit. He doesn't know biting and playing signals, he'll randomly forget things like using the litterbox, he gets frustrated and angry when he isn't given what he wants (more than usual, cage rage is real, haha), eating anything I give him, things like that (and he *loves* the sin bin, so that doesn't work). But with food, he'll eat on his own, finish and walk away, but if he sees anyone eating after that, he'll throw a tantrum if he isn't fed, as if he's starving. So I think he's eating most of the food, which is a big part of getting the FN cage to separate who has access to food at a given time.
I did a batch of organs; 12oz heart, 8oz liver. I'll work up to probably 12oz heart and 10oz liver, but I know they like heart chunks, so I added more of that. No problems! Everyone except Booker ate it right away, and Booker ate once he got a taste while being spoon fed.
My roommate and I cleaned most of the living room, and the goal is to have it done by Friday. Her boyfriend moved in a few days after we did, so it made unpacking complicated. Tomorrow I should have the cage to set up, laundry to do, decorations to put up, organizing to do, then physics homework and studying for the exam.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2016 1:48:24 GMT -5
Just read your post. I'll keep those in mind. I'm currently without a car for a bit, so going to stores to look is a bit difficult. I'll see if I can get a ride to the Asian market. As for the pork bone, it's an inch thick cut of the scapula, with multiple tapered/thinner points that they've been working at. I can get a picture if you'd like. I hope it isn't damaging their mouths... I was under the impression that it was chewing bone that was beneficial, not consuming it. How would I go about cutting/processing a turkey if I got one? Though I think most of them are lean turkeys with solution... I can check next time I go.
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Post by Celene on Feb 10, 2016 11:19:55 GMT -5
All of their weights look great! Ciel might look a little pudgy, but pretty normal for winter weight. Btw, do you have a photo of him head-on? Might help to confirm whether he's waardy - is he deaf? For now I would just give him a bit more food (so he's not so hungry he has to steal from everyone else), and try to let the others get a head start on food before him. It's also normal for ferrets to eat more at the beginning of a switch. My girl Mocha who normally weighs 1.4 lbs went up to 1.7 lbs in the first two months of her raw switch, she looked so big! I'm glad to hear everyone liked the organs As for the pork steaks, I definitely don't think those ferrets will be able to eat it. Pork bones are very dense and hard, especially ones that bear weight. Ferrets need to consume bone (approximately 10%-15% of their diet should be just bone, although we feed about 60% of their meals as "bone-in" with muscle meat because if they eat a ton of bone at once they can get constipated). Bone contains a lot of micro and macro nutrients including calcium, magnesium, etc. The marrow is also good for them What I want you to do this week, is switch them to the frankenprey diet I posted earlier. Ferrets should have approximately 7-9 bone in meals, so for anything that isn't chicken wings, I would recommend sprinkling some eggshell powder on it for now. Since you are doing soupies that are 50% heart, 25% liver and 25% kidney, your menu might look something like this: Monday am: cornish game hen (bone-in) Monday pm: pork chunks Tuesday am: chicken wings Tuesday pm: pork chunks Wednesday am: pork with eggshell powder Wednesday pm: organ soupies (50% heart, 25% liver, 25% kidney) Thursday am: cornish game hen (bone-in) Thursday pm: pork with eggshell powder Friday am: chicken wings Friday pm: organ soupies (50% heart, 25% liver, 25% kidney) Saturday am: cornish game hen (bone-in) Saturday pm: pork chunks Sunday am: cornish game hen (bone-in) Sunday pm: organ soupies (50% heart, 25% liver, 25% kidney) When you say the turkey is "in solution" do you mean saltwater? That would be bad for ferrets - you want to go for something that is just 100% meat with nothing added. You can find lots of youtube videos on how to butcher a turkey, although they are very large and I think most of the bones would be too big for "beginner" ferrets starting on bone.
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