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Post by katt on Jul 14, 2014 0:42:43 GMT -5
How are things going?
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Post by katt on Jul 20, 2014 15:45:27 GMT -5
As per text you have been out of state. SO fed them kibble for the week. Let me know how they took to the sliver today and if you had to add any soup to them. Hopefully they don't backslide too far :/
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Post by katt on Jul 20, 2014 15:47:53 GMT -5
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Post by brittles888 on Jul 24, 2014 3:25:27 GMT -5
Hey!
So this weeks weight. Zin is 2 lbs 2 oz and Lola is 1 lb 10 oz.
First two meal after the fiancé kibble fiasco was chicken hearts cut in half. They are them just fine. Then I have them pork chunks. They wouldn't touch them. They sat there for a day. I took them out and gave them some soup (but not runny, pretty much solid like thick mashed potatoes) they have been eating that for the past couple of meals. The soup was made from chicken, and their poops didn't seem too runny, so maybe that problem before was just from the lack of proper ratio of eggshells. I have chicken breast and chicken liver defrosting right now, and one pork tenderloin already defrosted. It was weird they wouldn't eat the pork though.
I have a question, can they just eat soup indefinitely? Or is it not good for them for some reason long term and that's why you switch to the frankenprey?
Anyway, going to bed. Text me when you reply with the next thing I should do and I'll check in the morn before I prepare their food.
Thank you!
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Post by katt on Jul 24, 2014 14:21:07 GMT -5
No, they should not eat soup indefinitely. For one, it is horrible for their teeth. They need the chunks and bones for tooth cleaning, and they need to chew for tooth and jaw health, and to build healthy jaw and neck muscles. The chunks and bones also stimulate their GI tract for good digestive and intestinal health - for example the bones massage and stimulate the intestines. The bones get rounded out by the stomach acid and move through the intestines like a gentle scrub brush, massaging and cleaning the intestines, stimulating blood flow, healthy tissue growth, etc.
Unless they have some medical condition, such as a jaw malformation, they should not be kept on soup long term. Sure it's better than kibble nutritionally, but there really is no excuse for not moving them forward IMO. Not to mention, it's just no what they are meant to eat. They need chunks and bones.
As for them not taking pork, they are being picky. I want you to really push them hard. butt slivers to their thick soup, and add more Every meal, as you decrease the soup, until they get back to eating slivers. I'd like to see this happen within a couple of days because we already know they will accept it as food - they are just being spoiled and stubborn. We also need to work on getting another protein in the mix. Right now they get chicken and pork, anything else? You have access to beef correct?
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Post by brittles888 on Jul 24, 2014 20:06:55 GMT -5
Thanks for the info about the soup!
I do have access to beef. I can go get some. I'll try pork chunks in the soup today and see if they eat them. I have to go to Juneau in the morning for a dentist appointment and they have large grocery stores so I can go and look for more stuff to buy that isn't available here too (different organs and such).
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Post by katt on Jul 25, 2014 1:50:32 GMT -5
Thanks for the info about the soup! I do have access to beef. I can go get some. I'll try pork chunks in the soup today and see if they eat them. I have to go to Juneau in the morning for a dentist appointment and they have large grocery stores so I can go and look for more stuff to buy that isn't available here too (different organs and such). Yaay! (dance) Definitely snatch up any goodies you can find! Look for some different organs too - like kidney, brains, uterus, spleen, etc. For the pork, try smallish slivers to start and move them back up to where they were before as quickly as you can get them to accept it.
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Post by katt on Jul 28, 2014 1:04:46 GMT -5
We head out on the road tomorrow. Once we cross the border into Canada I won't have internet or text for about 3 days. Keep working on those slivers and try to get them back to eating slivers without soupies on them. Once they get there, start to gradually increase the Size of the slivers. Also, make sure that they are getting a full meal of heart and a full meal of organ. They took to the heart slivers, but how are they doing with liver? I'm hoping to be back in the US by Thurs or Fri.
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Post by katt on Aug 2, 2014 12:05:26 GMT -5
Back in the US!! We survived the ALCAN - just barely!! SOO glad the long hard part is over! We are visiting family in ID a few days then headed to Seattle! How are your fuzzards doing?
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Post by katt on Aug 9, 2014 21:56:56 GMT -5
What's the update on the beef?
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Post by brittles888 on Aug 10, 2014 4:41:48 GMT -5
Hello!
Glad to hear you made it down south! Where is your family in Idaho? (That's where I'm from, southeast Idaho.)
Anyway, just weighed the fuzzies. Zin is down to 2 lbs. Lola is 1.9 pounds. So Zin has lost about a half a pound total since we started...I can feel his ribs. I took some pictures tonight and I'll try to post them on here (I'm trying a new app to access this that's supposed to send me updates)
So they are eating beef fine, and big chunks. Like inch cubes. Gnawing away. They will eat whole chicken hearts too. They will eat chicken liver but still not need. I need to go buy more liver and meat as something really tragic and heartbreaking happened. We moved our chest freezer a few feet from it's original spot and it must have bumped the plug because my fiancé went out to get fish to thaw and discovered everything in there was thawed and ruined. :********( I had just gotten a case of organic turkey and I had pounds and pounds of chicken hearts and livers and pork tenderloins and chicken breasts. It's such a waste it SUCKS. (We also had tons of King salmon and ling cod. My fiancé ended up grabbing all of that stuff and brining it and smoking it and it's ok. I didn't dare try to save the meat though. It was warm to the touch. Sigh. What a waste of animal life and also of money.
Oh! And not sure I told you this either but while I was in New Orleans my fiancé unpacked a box of baking stuff (we are still unpacking. Ha) and he put it in a bottom drawer the ferrets get into. I discovered it by opening the drawer to see what mischief they were doing and seeing them buried in a bag of powdered sugar eating away. It was obvious it wasn't the first time they had done it. So-while I was gone he let them get into a bunch of sugar and fed them kibble. Ugh. I hope it won't cause irreversible damage. Pure sugar binges.
But they are doing good on the meat! Besides Zin being lucky and not eating as much and dropping weight. They will eat chunks with no soup of pork beef and chicken (half inch to full inch cubes) and they will eat chicken hearts and chicken livers. And when I get beef liver again I can try putting small amounts amongst the chicken livers to slowly get them used to it. And I add egg She'll to everything. Question...can ferrets eat raw fish? We always have that.
We are going to Whitehorse on Friday so Andrew can do a book signing and they have large grocery stores and a butcher so I'm going to get all the meat I can.
Ok let's see if I can post pics.
And...it didn't work again. What the h*ll? It was the same as the other app, it loads to 99 percent then says upload failed and system error see an administrator for assistance.
I'll text you the pics. You can post em if you want.
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Post by katt on Aug 10, 2014 6:27:16 GMT -5
Will read he rest of your post tomorrow but RE the pics (I texted this too): Yes, he is way too skinny. That's why the weekly weights are so important. You are going to need to hand feed him - he isn't eating enough. He could use some extra fat in his diet too. Pork and duck are good fatty meats - can you get those? Lard (with NO salt added) and clarified butter (again, no salt butter - you can make your own clarified butter too) are decent fat sources too that you can mix into his soupies. I wouldn't do it long term, but short term to give him a little boost. You also Really need to hand feed for a while and monitor his eating to make sure he is eating enough, bc he clearly isn't eating enough on his own. Also, from here on out you REALLY need to do weekly weigh ins. This is why it's important - so you can catch weight changes before they become too drastic. We definitely need to get some weight on him. How are his poops? What exactly are they eating right now in a given week? And for the pics you can't do it from your phone bc it is an attachment. We have limited space for attachments on the forum so we have them turned off. Best thing to do is upload to a photo media like photobucket, Flickr, or Facebook, and copy the image URL or image code into your post.
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Post by katt on Aug 10, 2014 22:19:06 GMT -5
Glad to hear you made it down south! Where is your family in Idaho? (That's where I'm from, southeast Idaho.) Sagle - right near Sandpoint Beautiful area. Anyway, just weighed the fuzzies. Zin is down to 2 lbs. Lola is 1.9 pounds. So Zin has lost about a half a pound total since we started...I can feel his ribs. I took some pictures tonight and I'll try to post them on here (I'm trying a new app to access this that's supposed to send me updates) See my above post. So they are eating beef fine, and big chunks. Like inch cubes. Gnawing away. They will eat whole chicken hearts too. They will eat chicken liver but still not need. Need? Not sure what that was supposed to say, sorry. lol I think we need to back it up a bit. Zin doesn't seem to be eating enough and I suspect that he may be chewing without swallowing - this is not uncommon if the size is increased without ensuring they are really eating the smaller sized chunks first OR hand feeding a bit to ensure they accept the new size. I would cut the chunks a little bit smaller than you have been (not too much smaller as we don't want to set Lola back), and hand feed him for a while. Our immediate concern is we need to get his weight up Now. He is way too skinny and that really concerns me. Even if it means going back to soup for a week or two then so be it. Weight first, then progress. So hand feed at least once a day, and weigh him. I would do 2x a week weights for the next 1-2 weeks to ensure that he starts gaining. If he isn't gaining weight relatively quickly with regular hand feeding, then you'll need to take him in as something else could be wrong. Also try to keep track of how much he eats a day when you hand feed as well (weigh the food before and after hand feeding) so you can get a ballpark of how much he is eating. If after 2 weeks tops of hand feeding he isn't showing Significant and Steady weight increase, then he needs to get to the vet. :/ You also need to be doing weekly weigh ins. Even if you don't post them here (which you should), you need to do it yourself and write it down in a notebook somewhere. That will help you catch weight loss (or gain) sooner. This time of year is kind of tough bc weight loss can easily be disguised as Spring/Summer shed, but by having regular weights you will be able to much better monitor normal vs abnormal weight loss. Especially as you start to accumulate more weights, you can look back and see oh last summer he weighed 2.5lb, and this summer he is down to 2.3lb, so maybe something else is going on. It can also offer relief too if you look and see oh thank goodness, he is ALWAYS around 2.3lb in the summer so there is nothing to worry about, it's just normal spring loss. Etc. During the switch it is super important to weigh weekly to ensure they are eating enough. After they are fully switched you can weigh less often but you still want to keep a regular record. I need to go buy more liver and meat as something really tragic and heartbreaking happened. We moved our chest freezer a few feet from it's original spot and it must have bumped the plug because my fiancé went out to get fish to thaw and discovered everything in there was thawed and ruined. :********( I had just gotten a case of organic turkey and I had pounds and pounds of chicken hearts and livers and pork tenderloins and chicken breasts. It's such a waste it SUCKS. (We also had tons of King salmon and ling cod. My fiancé ended up grabbing all of that stuff and brining it and smoking it and it's ok. I didn't dare try to save the meat though. It was warm to the touch. Sigh. What a waste of animal life and also of money. OMG That is horrible! I'm so sorry, that really is devestating. Oh! And not sure I told you this either but while I was in New Orleans my fiancé unpacked a box of baking stuff (we are still unpacking. Ha) and he put it in a bottom drawer the ferrets get into. I discovered it by opening the drawer to see what mischief they were doing and seeing them buried in a bag of powdered sugar eating away. It was obvious it wasn't the first time they had done it. So-while I was gone he let them get into a bunch of sugar and fed them kibble. Ugh. I hope it won't cause irreversible damage. Pure sugar binges. Oh no!!!! That is super bad. You are really going to have to watch them for signs of insulinoma as they age. They are young and haven't been eating sugar as a regular part of their diet, so they *should* be okay, but just keep in the back of your mind that they are at higher risk. If they ate a lot it could have cause some pancreas damage in *theory.* BUT don't panic over it until you have to though. Ferrets get into things, it happens. Koda has eaten chocolate several times when he was a kit. He found the Christmas stocking and stashed a bunch of candy. We thought we got it all but kept finding new ones for a while... But they are doing good on the meat! Besides Zin being lucky and not eating as much and dropping weight. They will eat chunks with no soup of pork beef and chicken (half inch to full inch cubes) and they will eat chicken hearts and chicken livers. And when I get beef liver again I can try putting small amounts amongst the chicken livers to slowly get them used to it. And I add egg She'll to everything. Question...can ferrets eat raw fish? We always have that. That's good they are starting to accept more variety. Once we get Zin's weight back up we will work on separating the heart and liver into their own meals. As for the fish - absolutely! My boys LOVE salmon. In fact, we had some for dinner last night and Koda kept trying to steal it off of my plate. (giggle) I have given my boys the eggs Shane's mom pulled off of some shrimp, and various fish scraps. If they like salmon oil drizzle some of that over the fish and see what they think. Koda used to snub all fish, but then he got hooked on salmon oil - after that all I did was drizzle some over some salmon scraps and bc they were similar tasting he gobbled it down in a few seconds. Now all I have to do with new fish is drizzle a little oil on it the first time. I saved some salmon eggs and heads from this year's catch - they are in the freezer for the boys. BTW Yummy Chummy Salmon Oil is great, and it's a lot less expensive than other salmon oils AND it's local. We are going to Whitehorse on Friday so Andrew can do a book signing and they have large grocery stores and a butcher so I'm going to get all the meat I can. Awesome! Let me know what you find! You HAVE to stop at the Canadian Superstore (not Super Foods - they are different. Superstore is at the bottom of the Two Mile Hill and off to the right) and get their Chocolate Croissants - SOOOOO good!!!! Best Chocolate Croissants I have had in years. Ok let's see if I can post pics.
And...it didn't work again. What the h*ll? It was the same as the other app, it loads to 99 percent then says upload failed and system error see an administrator for assistance.
Post them to photobucket first. You can do that from your phone and copy/paste the image code from the PB app. It's a bit glitchy, but aside from that it's pretty straightforward to use. You want the Image Code that looks like [ img ] url here [/ img ] (added spaces so it won't try to insert an image lol
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Post by brittles888 on Aug 11, 2014 1:45:51 GMT -5
Ok...I said "need" but I meant beef. Autocorrect. They won't eat beef liver.
I also said Zin was "lucky" but I meant skinny. Ugh. Ha
Ok- so after your texts this morning (the first reply) I put a bunch of unsalted ghee (basically clarified butter) with his beef chunks. I gave them double the amount of food I have been, but I didn't read about weighing till now. I'll start in the morning. They have been finishing all the food but I think Lola has been eating most of it. She just goes into the box and eats it but Zin has to take pieces up to the very top of his cage and eat them up there. I put my phone up there to record him where I couldn't see him while he's eating. I'll send you the video.
Today I stayed at the cage and hand fed him the whole time while Lola chowed away. He's def behind her so I'll just focus on Hand feeding him with smaller pieces than her. I haven't made that feeding box you showed me yet but I'll get The stuff to do that. I think it will be helpful if he can't run up three stories to hide with his food.
They haven't been eating soup at all so I'll make a new batch and start giving just him some soup every day too. I have been giving them the chunks of various muscle meat twice a day, a small handful with a little oil drizzled on and egg shell. Then once a week they are getting the meal if just chicken hearts and once a week they are getting a meal of just chicken liver. So they ARE eating meals of just those things. Well Lola is anyway. Zin might just be chewing.
I don't want to harm Zin so I will do the twice weekly weights and weigh his good and try to get his weight back up.
I want to say too, I am realizing I will eventually want to feed them whole prey. I was worried about feeling bad for the mice but in the end I would rather raise some mice to have to feed them instead of having to scrounge and stockpile meats and organs. Esp since I can't get that great of a selection here.
Anyway, I can't remember if there was more to address. I'll send this then reread your message to make sure I didn't miss something.
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Post by katt on Aug 13, 2014 0:10:05 GMT -5
Ok...I said "need" but I meant beef. Autocorrect. They won't eat beef liver. Beef liver you may want to give as a soup blended with hearts. It's really strong flavored so masking it often helps. Once you get to a more structured menu, they'll need one meal a week that's half heart and half organs anyways so a heart/organ soup isn't a bad way to go. I also said Zin was "lucky" but I meant skinny. Ugh. Ha I was wondering about that LOL Ok- so after your texts this morning (the first reply) I put a bunch of unsalted ghee (basically clarified butter) with his beef chunks. I gave them double the amount of food I have been, but I didn't read about weighing till now. I'll start in the morning. They have been finishing all the food but I think Lola has been eating most of it. She just goes into the box and eats it but Zin has to take pieces up to the very top of his cage and eat them up there. I put my phone up there to record him where I couldn't see him while he's eating. I'll send you the video. Today I stayed at the cage and hand fed him the whole time while Lola chowed away. He's def behind her so I'll just focus on Hand feeding him with smaller pieces than her. I haven't made that feeding box you showed me yet but I'll get The stuff to do that. I think it will be helpful if he can't run up three stories to hide with his food.His teeth look like they may be an issue contributing to his not wanting to chew on that side. It's hard to tell if it's him not fully accepting the bigger chunks yet, his teeth hurting, or both. How is hand feeding going? They haven't been eating soup at all so I'll make a new batch and start giving just him some soup every day too. I have been giving them the chunks of various muscle meat twice a day, a small handful with a little oil drizzled on and egg shell. Then once a week they are getting the meal if just chicken hearts and once a week they are getting a meal of just chicken liver. So they ARE eating meals of just those things. Well Lola is anyway. Zin might just be chewing. Oh perfect! In that case we are actually going to mix up your menu a bit. You need to replace one of the muscle meat meals with a meal of half organ and half heart. Their diet needs to consist of 10% organ and 10% heart. On a 2 meal per day schedule, 1.5 meals is roughly 10%. So they should get 1.5 meals of heart and 1.5 meals of organ every week. How you do those meals is up to you. Some do a meal of heart, a meal of organ, and a half/half meal. Others make a 50/50 heart and organ mix and feed that for 3 meals. Up to you as long as they are getting the 10% of each. I don't want to harm Zin so I will do the twice weekly weights and weigh his good and try to get his weight back up. How is hand feeding going? What is his weight looking like? I want to say too, I am realizing I will eventually want to feed them whole prey. I was worried about feeling bad for the mice but in the end I would rather raise some mice to have to feed them instead of having to scrounge and stockpile meats and organs. Esp since I can't get that great of a selection here. Perfect! I'm always an advocate of whole prey, but I don't try to push it on anyone as it is definitely a personal choice. We can most definitely work them up through whole prey. And if you have the resources to raise your own I highly recommend it. It is fairly simple and inexpensive and you know where the mice came from, what they eat, and that they were treated well while alive. I always made a homemade diet for mine - $20 of bulk homemade food would last me MONTHS to feed several breeding groups and a large feeder group versus a $10-15 bag of pet-store crap food that would last maybe 2 weeks.... AND the homemade diet is (just like with ferrets) much healthier for them. Easy Breeding Bins: naturalrodent.proboards.com/thread/86/easy-breeding-bins?page=1&scrollTo=206Natural Mouse Diet: naturalrodent.proboards.com/thread/1/natural-mouse-dietBreeding Mice: naturalrodent.proboards.com/thread/19/breeding-miceSexing Mice: naturalrodent.proboards.com/thread/27/sexing-micenaturalrodent.proboards.com/thread/3/resources-breeding-mice-links-infoIf you aren't comfortable with live fed either, you can always get dry ice and Euth by CO2. Another option if you don't want to raise your own is you can always do a bulk order from RodentPro. Shipping is a pretty penny, but if you fill up the box it still ends up being really affordable PER prey item.
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