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Hobs
Nov 23, 2012 17:53:04 GMT -5
Post by crazylady on Nov 23, 2012 17:53:04 GMT -5
Hi I have generations of hybrid polecats I have a couple of polecats who have wild origins and domesticated polecats ( who are crosses of hybrid and 1/2 polecat but I class as domesticated ) basically anything that I have bred for more than five generations is domesticated because it has lived in a domesticated environment and is no longer wild ) I also have albino silver dew and sandy ( silver dew and sandy I class as mutt ferrets because I never breed like to like often these colours are obtained by breeding albino with a light domesticated polecat and these pop out in split litters thankfully non to date have been deaf but non have been pure dew either often 10-20 odd guard hairs are the norm until they are 2-3 years old then they take on the look of the dew ) over the years on my travels I have seen huge differences in the ferrets around the world the hobs head has decreased in size making it appear more jill like ( you do still get large headed hobs but not many ) a lot have a more triangular head jills have become smaller as have the eye sizes and placements of eyes in the skull in a lot of the countries you see mixes of the so called black self x polecat matings the black self came about due to a russian experiment which can be read about here www.ferret.ru/eng/khonorik.html in a lot of these countries what we think of polecat is not a polecat they are referring to the steppe polecat which can live in colder climates and is more weasel like in the beginning when black selfs first appeared believe me the worst job in the world was mine lol ( talk about bandaids lol ) even today with multiple crossings the temperament is not always what it should be and I believe fertility in these is poor only resulting in two or three kits per litter and in some cases the males are sterile there is also no genetic data on them so we do not know how long there average lifespan or how prone to illness they are it is simply another thing the ferret community has to wait and watch for take care bye for now Bev
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Hobs
Nov 23, 2012 18:07:14 GMT -5
Post by crazylady on Nov 23, 2012 18:07:14 GMT -5
Hi depending on age and temp in mild winters adults can come in any time from dec onwards in colder years they are normally full in by feb/march kits easily get confused and can come in early if they are developed ( hobs ) I have never had a kit jill come in early if anything they tend to be 1-2 months later than the adults what may also be confusing you is different areas of England have different temps so for example heather who lives in devon may find her hobs come in early one year while mine are a month later or visa versa depending on weather and temp they seem to sense when there is a the slightest change unfortunately at the moment my guys have them all tucked away and thick fur coats on so that tells me I am in for a cold cold winter lol take care bye for now Bev
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Hobs
Nov 23, 2012 19:26:34 GMT -5
Post by joan on Nov 23, 2012 19:26:34 GMT -5
Bev, I wasn't referring to conformation and type as being similar throughout the world, but the similarity of the hobs re hormones, behavior while in rut, and the like. My ferrets really weren't that much different from the hybrids, but the hybrids are much more intense about it all.
The UK breeders I've corresponded with live as far north as Edinburgh and as far south as near London, and several points inbetween. Their hobs and jills have all come in rut/heat within a couple of weeks of one another every year. So it appears that there's not all that much difference in the latitude or the lighting, and the temperature is what delays the ones further north for a week or so. None of them has ever mentioned a hob starting to come in rut before mid February, so I was very interested in hearing about yours and why they might be different.
My jill kits have always come in within a week either way of the adult jills, as have those of other breeders I correspond with regularly. It does sound as though something is going on with your young ones which is quite different from most...and I'm really curious as to what it is and what may be causing it.
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Hobs
Nov 24, 2012 14:21:01 GMT -5
Post by crazylady on Nov 24, 2012 14:21:01 GMT -5
Hi Joan it could possibly be size difference and the difference in time they mature at at them moment I have two hob kits ( they have tiny peas down at the moment but are not smelling hobish or showing any signs of acting as if they are hormonal ) they are 6 1/2 months old and weight 4 pound 7 and 4 pound nine respectively take care bye for now Bev
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Hobs
Nov 24, 2012 18:43:17 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2012 18:43:17 GMT -5
I think it's a fascinating question about natural selection and timing of rut/season/breeding. Surely there is at least some natural variation in the timing of these cycles.. You can see it in the seasonal breeding in birds and mammals around here.. Some breeding pairs get an early start on raising their young. If it works out and the weather is mild, they end up with a jump start on the season and have earlier access to resources and the chance to have more progeny in a season. But if not, and the weather and conditions are not optimal, then those early breeders are out the resources used for a failed breeding attempt if the offspring freeze or starve.
Maybe certain lines have ended up more sensitive to external cues for breeding. Maybe some lines are less so, compared to an average. Beverly, Joan is right that it really is interesting to dig into, even if none of us have answers, it's useful to compare observations and conditions under which those observations are made. Especially when you have the wildcard of different levels of polecat hybrid derived from different polecat populations.
Which does nothing to discuss the original questions about how hobs get along together.. I have previously had two hob ferrets from private breeding, but they were 6 months apart in age and ended up very different in their first rut timings, with one in and eventually neutered too early thanks to poor mentorship... Tuck was then the only hob when he went into rut.
Right now Pimm is teenage funk, but not actually in rut. He is learning to behave with raven, who is a late alter. This weekend was the first time I found them sleeping together. Pimm would wither away and die without companionship right now. Usually Cocchi keeps him in line, but we will see how Pimm does as he gets older.
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Hobs
Dec 3, 2012 5:10:17 GMT -5
Post by lorelei0922 on Dec 3, 2012 5:10:17 GMT -5
Sorry guys... i've been away for a week and couldn't keep up with this thread... lots of info... assumption and goings on to be sure.. but i'll just stick to what works for me... so.. here goes
Heather... you asked me
*Heather (Lorelei)....Do your hobs pine at all for their friends during the summer? I'm just thinking of Finn. I know my 2 'bino brats would be devastated to be separated, though they came close after Bacchus was with Lady Morgain (they both got bathed and then everything was ok again)
I find for MY hobs.. they dont appear to pine for their friends in the summer time.. to me they seem to be more concerned with hormonal surges, wiping their bits on everyone and every thing in sight and trying to get in to attack any other boys in the area... .. They do POUT if they can smell a jill in the upper level with a hob though over night LOL .. poor guys...
I have a pair... Little Man and Ash who are really close... and they choose to stay together through their season with a very minimal of scuffling ... not even really scruffy necks... i dont know if they would pine for each other if separated because i only separate them one at a time as problems arise.
I have one boy ( Sage ) who must be separated at first sign of getting grumpy with each other because He'll go directly for the kill with any hob in sight when in season. As soon as his bits start to recede though He'll happily cuddle up with anyone boy or girl... neutered or not.
I find in my case its a real individual thing ... i'm finding Ciaran isn't fond of the other hobs even out of season.. though he'll tolerate them if he has to.. He's much happier when i pull Him, Cieara and Sorcha out and put them in the smaller cour together instead... perhaps he's more territorial as he's higher percentage EU ... or maybe its just cause thats how He is LOL...
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Hobs
Dec 3, 2012 12:29:57 GMT -5
Post by Heather on Dec 3, 2012 12:29:57 GMT -5
Thanks Heather I'm beginning to think it's very much up to the individual hob as to how they get to live in their family groups. Personalities seem to play a big part in this. ciao
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Hobs
Dec 7, 2012 21:07:36 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2012 21:07:36 GMT -5
I'm in Australia & for all my research, am still very new & much the novice in comparison to the rest of the breeders here, however I thought I would give my input all the same.
Australia's breeding season is August/September through to February/March.
I have 3 fully grown, intact hobs. All 3 are currently in rut. Fez (3 yr old), Lucien (2 yr old) & Aydin (1 yr old).
Fez lives solo, he has most of his life & seems unsure of other ferrets. He's normally quite an easy fellow, very good to handle, though for a few weeks he became snappy & aggressive, though no medical cause was found, I've since assumed it was hormones. He avoids my other hobs cages when out. Fez didn't come into full rut until October, prior too he just smelt a little more but no swelling or marking.
Lucien is dominant male, who I've had since a 12 week old kit. He is Vassy, & is quiet enough to live with my jills all year around. He's the only hob I've come across that is not particularly aggressive towards jills, though he will attack Fez (in rut or out of rut) given a chance no doubt. He's like clockwork, & has come in to rut August both years.
Aydin is in his first rut. He came into rut during late August/early September & remained with Lucien without incident. It wasn't until Aydin realised he's actually much bigger than Lucien that things got interesting, though still not harm came, just a bit of mounting on both sides. It wasn't until the girls started to come into heat October that I seperated them, as I did not want to breed this season. Aydin has since spent a day with a few of the girls, who were off heat, & though he tried mounting them a few times, they ganged up on him & he eventually gave up. He remains solo in cage, but supervised play time.
I will not mix my intact hobs together, not until off rut & even then, only Lucien & Aydin. Each has their own cage, though they can still see & smell each other, so they are reminded of who is in the business.
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Hobs
Dec 30, 2015 16:22:54 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2015 16:22:54 GMT -5
Very old thread ... but very interesting!
I house my hobs with castrates or spayed jills or both. I have yet to manage to keep 2 entire hobs together through a season. I hope this year will be the year and that Ash and Eli will stay together as they have been raised together since kits.
I love to see a ferret pile and find it hard to accept that a lone ferret is not a very unfulfilled ferret (simply my own anthropomorphism most likely!).
I aim to only keep hobs entire who a) will live harmoniously with other ferrets throughout the rut and b) will not get silly and narky with people through the rut. Sydney is Dad to Ash and Eli and he lives happily with Snowy, a spayed jill, and Henry, his castrated son. He has never pestered or fallen out with them and is ALWAYS sleeping in a cosy bed with one or other regardless of season. This year, we will see if Basil, Ash and Eli are up to the mark in that way.
I have heard of some people housing entire hobs together through the year, and over here many 'old school' breeders make up trios at the start of the year of a hob and 2 jills he is intended to mate that year. Oftentimes the hobs are left in with the jills throughout pregnancy, birthing and raising the litter, and this is certainly how Sydney was kept before he joined me.
I don't leave hobs in with pregnant jills or litters, but I do create permanent groups for them of altered ferrets so that they have stability.
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Hobs
Dec 31, 2015 14:19:20 GMT -5
Post by crazylady on Dec 31, 2015 14:19:20 GMT -5
Hi I have brothers who live together ( I only leave pairs of two hobs together ) sure they try to play the mating game but no one gets hurt lol I simply smoother the necks with sudocreme if they get a bit rough and they stop lol( they hate the taste of it it sticks like glue and it is antiseptic but harmless to them ) as to coming in early I have quite a few who have the jewels down and are beginning to smell and its still Dec lol tonight I noticed a couple of jill kits starting to come in ! so they will be going to live the vas hob for a few days once fully in with my pregnant jills they have there own space no one is near them and my role is simply to clean and feed I don't interfere until the kits are three weeks old which is when her calcium levels in her milk is depleted ( even though she is given bonemeal daily on her food ) at three weeks I begin the four meal mush visits for her kits lol mom complains having to clean them up after walking through a plate of soup lol but she is quite happy to devour the left overs lol take care bye for now Bev
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Hobs
Jan 1, 2016 6:53:13 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2016 6:53:13 GMT -5
Hi I have brothers who live together ( I only leave pairs of two hobs together ) sure they try to play the mating game but no one gets hurt lol I simply smoother the necks with sudocreme if they get a bit rough and they stop lol( they hate the taste of it it sticks like glue and it is antiseptic but harmless to them ) as to coming in early I have quite a few who have the jewels down and are beginning to smell and its still Dec lol tonight I noticed a couple of jill kits starting to come in ! so they will be going to live the vas hob for a few days once fully in with my pregnant jills they have there own space no one is near them and my role is simply to clean and feed I don't interfere until the kits are three weeks old which is when her calcium levels in her milk is depleted ( even though she is given bonemeal daily on her food ) at three weeks I begin the four meal mush visits for her kits lol mom complains having to clean them up after walking through a plate of soup lol but she is quite happy to devour the left overs lol take care bye for now Bev Good to know it definitely can be done. I will try the sudocrem trick if Ash and Eli get silly with each other, but I really hope they will have the laid back nature of their Dad and Grandad (who also could be kept with other ferrets through the rut without any silliness). I have had a few 6 month old hob kits start to come into rut - in fact managed to vasectomise Barley as his bits are all there bless him. Not had any jills in yet though thank goodness. I am checking like crazy though because with this weather I am just thinking it's a matter of time. Any youngsters will be with the vas hob until they reach over a year though. Glad to hear I am not alone in leaving the kits well alone until 2.5 -3 weeks. I peek while Mum is occupied (have top opening nest boxes) just to check nobody needs immediate attention, but generally don't touch or anything until they are a bit older. I just cuddle Mum and give plenty of good food and she does the rest.
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Hobs
Jan 1, 2016 16:04:03 GMT -5
Post by Heather on Jan 1, 2016 16:04:03 GMT -5
I've got the B&E twins who live together (sibling hobs). Both are quite laid back and though they rough each other up, occasionally while in season, they seem to do little damage (nothing that sudocreme can't cure). Tico usually lives with his Lady Morgaine but last year and it seems this year, he's being too much of a pest and has been separated, while in season. I will give them a few days to cool off (Lady Morgaine once again gifted herself with a roll in the hay on Christmas). This year my quirky crew of males were all in by Christmas. It's got to be the weird weather, because nothing has changed this year from last year except the weird weather. I've been watching Lady Lola and her daughters and they don't seem to be interested in coming in (I'm happy about this) I leave mother with kits to do her thing for the first couple of weeks. I know this isn't the norm over here. Lady Lola was happy for me to hold her while she had her kits (she had full intent of having them on my knee) and she allowed me to view the kits as they nursed within the first 24 hrs. She was less than happy with me handling her babies and her poley nature kicked in big time and she moved her kits from nest to nest every couple of days rather than allow me to handle her kits. She would dook them to be quiet and greet me at the nursery door. She and I would have arguments over stealing her poopies, so I would let her into the ferret play room and let her curse out all the rescues and shut the door so I could clean up any uneaten meats, clean up the litter box and search out the babies. I would check out and count the babies, being careful not to wake them or get them calling out. I would then call Lady Lola (or she would be waiting at the door) and let her back into the nursery. She would then dash over check on her babies, come over dook and bite me and then crawl into her nest to the now screaming hoard. I think the bite was to hurry me on my way lol ciao
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Hobs
Jan 1, 2016 16:13:54 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2016 16:13:54 GMT -5
It's good to hear about another pair of brothers who live together entire. I really hope Ash and Eli will be able to, they are half brothers and match in size so fingers crossed!
Good to hear that your jills will dook at you too for going anywhere near the nest. Mischief was an odd Mum, she allowed me to handle her kits and never dooked at me, in fact she would just finish eating and then come and retrieve the kits from me and put them back and then come back and ask for a treat! Petal was a little dooky and I think nipped me once, Nutmeg dooked maybe once but really wasn't so bothered ...
There's a fine line between jills being laid back about having their litters looked at and not bothering to mother them so I am always reassured when I get a good telling off for putting my hand too near the nestbox!
It's a bit of a sacrifice to neuter ferrets to go with my entire hobs, but so far I've had ferrets that I have neutered for health/line reasons, that would have been neutered regardless so it's not so bad.
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Hobs
Jan 1, 2016 17:04:29 GMT -5
Post by Heather on Jan 1, 2016 17:04:29 GMT -5
Lady Lola is my Welsh jill. She's a heavy hybrid and her daughters are very typie (father is also poley). She's very poley when it came to looking after her kits (at least everything I've read) She didn't ignore them if they were touched but she definitely would protect them with every ounce of strength she had, even against me. I got more than a few tongue lashings for disturbing the nursery...usually cleaning litter boxes or stealing meat stashes. Once they were weaned, I had my loving little girl back and she had no problem with me handling them. Now that didn't preclude me getting a warning nip if she thought I wasn't giving due respect to them. It was funny the first time she brought them upstairs. She led them through the house, in a long line. Rapid fire dooking was how she kept them close. She would stop at the tunnels and funnel them through the tunnel and then led them to my studio where they took up residence under the futon. She showed them how to stick to the walls, run along tunnels rather than being in the open. They're still very "shy" compared to my rescue ferrets but they love with an intensity that I've not had the privilege to have met in most of my other ferrets. ciao
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Hobs
Jan 2, 2016 8:58:32 GMT -5
Post by maja01 on Jan 2, 2016 8:58:32 GMT -5
At the moment I have two entire hobs - unrelated and they just know each other for cca two weeks living together. Gusztav will stay whole, as I will use him for breeding, the newcommer Vega wil be vasectomized in the following week. They get along great (ok, there is some occasiolanl scruffing and such, but I don't find this nothing to dangerous), they sleep, eat and play together. Both are in full rut at the moment Gusztav lived with my castrated boy Iorek and the jill Drdra until previous week, but I had to separate them, since he was to rough. Also for the last few days, I can not even have them together for supervised play sessions, since the hobs only think of one thing ...
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