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Hobs
Nov 21, 2012 23:38:27 GMT -5
Post by darlene on Nov 21, 2012 23:38:27 GMT -5
Aren't weasels a totally different animal than the ferret?
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Hobs
Nov 22, 2012 0:21:13 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2012 0:21:13 GMT -5
Speaking of weasels vs ferrets, I found this and thought it was cute:
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Hobs
Nov 22, 2012 1:50:19 GMT -5
Post by Heather on Nov 22, 2012 1:50:19 GMT -5
To continue an idea and to quote Fara M. Shimbo, who Joan also quoted. ...the territorial behaviour of polecats, and many of the Mustelinea (greater family of weasel kind) as a group. Males of polecat and weasel species, maintain large territories, which they will not share with other males. Females because of their smaller size are able to glean more prey per hectare, maintain smaller territories. While males will not tolerate the presence of other males in their territories, they realize that it is in their own genetic best interests to be somewhat tolerant if the female's territory happens to overlap their own. They also realize that the female will avoid them like the proverbial plague whenever possible anyway. Thus the male needs a heavier scent to more clearly define to other males, who could, and would engage them in a fight over it; while the females, who can more easily avoid each other and everyone else, just want people to know they are there and they have a right to the real estate too. end quote. It appears to me that this describes a highly territorial animal that if kept in groups is indeed an unnatural state. Yes, it can be done, but the higher polecat genetics mean the less likely you're going to get a truly social male ferret. Yes, given the right personality these hobs can and do live comfortably together. My bratty 'binos are a perfect example. Chosen from a long line of hunting ferrets who are used in pairs, who work together to hunt they've been, through time and special choosing have become the ultimate working pairs. Their siblings are exactly the same (there were 4 hobs, all 4 lived together until they were shipped here, Bacchus' and Enigma's paired brothers are an awesome working pair) The dark sables, poleys are mostly true to their nature. They can be conditioned if introduced early enough to live in pairs but if truly left to their own choises will choose to live solo. Tico lived with his brother until the two boys started to mature, when they started to get too rough with each other and had to be separated, this happens. Shortly after their separation they both came into season. Tico had to remain in solitairy while in season. He then came here. Like Mikey, I really goofed regarding lighting....and Tico is now in a season without a season, I would not consider him good company for any ferret. He's not in full season, but he's definitely not out either. I honestly cannot think that any time during his life, once he had been separated from his brother could he have been safely introduced to another ferret. Perhaps, when he is older and his season mellow out a bit, maybe he will be introduced to a sprite of his own creation. I do not fault either my care or the care of his breeder for neglecting his social personality. He is a loving, cuddly, sweet hob...who has a very special sense of himself. One would say, he is what he was designed to be a ferret/polecat probably leaning heavily on his polecat ancestry in his desire for his own territory. I do not think we can fault our ferrets for their desire to be what their ancestry has designed them to be. We over here practice keeping our ferrets as perpetual kits, living in litters. We cannot expect our intact ferrets who must live through their seasons, sexual frustrations to live as kits. They live as mature adults, if we can be lucky enough to find that "special" ferret as Mikey has done with Finn that is great. Finn is a very special ferret. My Odin was that type of ferret....like Finn he loved friendships more than his sexuality. Odin had no special socialization, he was the base ferret to create special colours for a BYB in the area. He was kept in an outdoor shed in a cage by himself from the time he was a kit. ciao
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Hobs
Nov 22, 2012 2:43:20 GMT -5
Post by darlene on Nov 22, 2012 2:43:20 GMT -5
Speaking of weasels vs ferrets, I found this and thought it was cute: crazy ;D
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Hobs
Nov 22, 2012 8:02:37 GMT -5
Post by crazylady on Nov 22, 2012 8:02:37 GMT -5
Hi I Bred Tico and in response to the following The only time my intact hobs are totally solitary, in and out of the cage, is when they're in rut or I don't have a jill who will accept them as a playmate/cage mate when they're out of rut. Are you saying that Tico had no interaction with other ferrets from a young age on? I can understand separating him from his litter brother if they were aggressive with one another when they began to mature. But, even if he wasn't allowed to live with a jill so that he wouldn't bond to her, was there some reason he wasn't allowed to at least play with other ferrets during his out of cage time before he came in rut? I guess these questions should be directed to his breeder, rather than to you.
Tico and his brothers lived together until the age of 5 1/2 months all three of them became aggressive towards each other as they came into rut early even though kept in natural light and because Tico was going to heather we decided separation before any serious injuries occurred ( torn necks or cauliflower ears ) as it happened Tico remained in season right up to the time of departure and when he arrived with heather he was still in season when let out to exercise they could all see smell and talk to other ferrets they simply were not able to attack or that are bred from hybrid lines are a very very different kettle of fish to the domesticated polecat the more domesticated blood that is added in the quieter the hob or jill I have polecat jills who although live together ( 3 sisters ) once they come into season turn into h*ll cats they refuse to share space with each other and have to be separated even when going though the phantom pregnancy they must be alone or they drag siblings by the skull and neck causing deep wounds when not in season they live amicably together along with other ferrets just as the hunting instinct cannot be bred out in true polecats the instinct of survival or the fittest and there need to protect territory cannot be bred out it is natural instinct my breeding practices are based on years of hands on and studies of polecats in there natural environment just my two pennies worth take care bye for now Bev
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Hobs
Nov 22, 2012 12:12:54 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2012 12:12:54 GMT -5
So I have a hob question. Since I am just learning about hobs, and since we are waiting for our new hob from next breeding season, I am trying to be as prepared as possible. I know they all have their own personality, and each hob will tolerate different things. I am aware of the probable need for separation from the other ferrets during his rut. For those of you who have a hob and also other animals (meaning dogs, cats (nothing smaller than a small dog or adult cat), will the average hob also see these animals as a mate or something to be challenged, or have you found that they are still do fine with the other family pets? I'm only asking so I can make sure to do everything correctly.
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Hobs
Nov 22, 2012 12:28:02 GMT -5
Post by Heather on Nov 22, 2012 12:28:02 GMT -5
Obviously, every hob will be different, in what he accept and reacts to. I've had no problems with them and other animals (other than their sheer joy of herding cats ) They do not recognise fear and are pests to the other pets though... more so than the regular ferrets (and sex has nothing to do with it...it's the absolute joy of the hunt...I could never bring a small kitten into this group). I have to protect my dog because they have pestered him to the point of growling (he has the patience of a saint, they just want him to play) I would say unsupervised play is not a good idea with the dogs, but as long as the cats can have places they can get to without ferrets than they should be safe. I will say I've had no real problems with cats and dogs. I'm afraid that with my crew, I would not be able to bring in anything smaller than that. ciao
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Hobs
Nov 22, 2012 12:37:03 GMT -5
Post by joan on Nov 22, 2012 12:37:03 GMT -5
This is a difficult subject..... I have read that ferts/polecats ARE solitary in the wild. I have also read that crowding (such as in shelters) increases stress levels and exacerbates disease/adrenal, etc. I have OBSERVED the following; * my early alters would sleep together 50%of the time. * my late alters VERY, VERY RARELY sleep together - they have a LOT of room and choices. They tend to remain solitary by choice, but they do play together and care for each other. They seem to require privacy. -jennifer Polecats and feral ferrets are typically solitary n the wild, but have been seen playing together. Hobs and jills have been known to share a territory with one of the same sex, but I assume that would only apply to close relatives (most likely littermates or father/son, mother/daughter) when there was a plentiful food supply. I haven't seen any references that they shared a den in such instances, so would think that they most likely denned separately. I think it was Bob Church who wrote an article years ago that crowding in shelters increases stress levels...and that will exacerbate adrenal and other disease. It makes sense, since unrelieved stress over a period of time would certainly impact the immune system negatively. I've had limited experience with early neuters as I've never owned any, but have only boarded those owned by people who had one or more of my kits. It's possible that they can tolerate a greater number of ferrets in a cage or room without being stressed out by it, since they retain the juvenile mentality and consider the other ferrets as littermates. My own experience with intact ferrets and hybrids is that 5-6 in one room, and two to a cage, after 5-6 months of age is the maximum number which will not cause heightened stress for all of them. It's easy for me to tell which pairs are bonded, as I always find them sleeping together when it's time to switch groups. They'll usually sleep together in their cage, either in the sleep sack or their sleep box, other than in warm weather when they sleep separately. It does seem that the hobs bond much more closely, as they're clearly unhappy when they have to be separated from their companion during breeding season...the jills don't seem to care that much, but then they have other matters on their minds during that time. I currently have two retired breeders (hybrid mother/daughter) living together who have been inseparable since both were spayed. Prior to that, they would sleep separately much of the time, but now always sleep together both in and out of the cage.
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Hobs
Nov 22, 2012 12:47:55 GMT -5
Post by Heather on Nov 22, 2012 12:47:55 GMT -5
If a hob has a season that lasts (out of my head 5 months...now Tico and the 'binos were not really in season for that length of time but rather a sudo season, no stink, not greasy but testicles still fully descended) is it fair to let them be that stressed for that length of time waiting for their cagemate? I've seen the grief upon separating a bonded pair for health reasons (farm ferrets). They are devastated. So I can't imagine a hob, which for all their blust and blunder are very sensitive souls, handling being separated from their friends very well... or do you find that they can be returned to their cagemates sooner once the intensity of their season has abated? ciao
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Hobs
Nov 22, 2012 13:09:40 GMT -5
Post by joan on Nov 22, 2012 13:09:40 GMT -5
Bev, if I understand you correctly, Tico came in rut last year approximately the same time as he did this year. If so, it appears that Heather did nothing wrong and that the lighting he lived in did not cause the early rut.
I've had some experience with out of season rut/heats and found that they were associated with abnormal reproductive hormones. The hobs were sterile or had low fertility and the jills did nor produce milk, so the kits died. That was the end of the line, needless to say.
The polecat sisters you describe also sound to have either abnormal hormones or are extremely stressed...or both. I've had hybrids, low to high content, since 2004 and have never seen anything even remotely close to this type of behavior.
It's not at all uncommon for true polecats and high content hybrids of the same sex which have been raised together from very young kits to bond very closely. The ones I know about are intact and live together year round. It may be rare, but it can be done very successfully with the right kind of living conditions.
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Hobs
Nov 22, 2012 13:26:33 GMT -5
Post by joan on Nov 22, 2012 13:26:33 GMT -5
If a hob has a season that lasts (out of my head 5 months...now Tico and the 'binos were not really in season for that length of time but rather a sudo season, no stink, not greasy but testicles still fully descended) is it fair to let them be that stressed for that length of time waiting for their cagemate? I've seen the grief upon separating a bonded pair for health reasons (farm ferrets). They are devastated. So I can't imagine a hob, which for all their blust and blunder are very sensitive souls, handling being separated from their friends very well... or do you find that they can be returned to their cagemates sooner once the intensity of their season has abated? ciao I'm not sure what you're asking here? The testicles can be fully descended without the hob actually being in rut...this is usually very apparent the first year, as the hob kits can drop their testicles from about 12 weeks on. It's when the testicles enlarge that they're actually starting the rut...that's when the odor and greasy coat are apparent. Except for the first year, I've not had to separate a hob from his cagemate until she actually came in heat. And then she's caged next to him, which seems to satisfy him sufficiently until she's ready for breeding. Once they're bred and the jill is out of heat for a week, she goes back in with the hob until a couple weeks before her due date when she's moved into her whelping cage in my bedroom...which is off limit to the others.
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Post by Sherry on Nov 22, 2012 13:33:31 GMT -5
It's my understanding the lighting plays a MAJOR role with rut. That is how both Finn and Tico came into season again, as well as how the mills produce ferrets year round. Also how the wee girl you'd adopted out came into an early season.
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Hobs
Nov 22, 2012 14:21:22 GMT -5
Post by joan on Nov 22, 2012 14:21:22 GMT -5
It's my understanding the lighting plays a MAJOR role with rut. That is how both Finn and Tico came into season again, as well as how the mills produce ferrets year round. Also how the wee girl you'd adopted out came into an early season. The amount of light does play a major role in when they come in heat/rut. Finn was exposed to fluorescent lighting at night on top of the natural lighting during the day. Hobs respond to decreasing light, which is why they start coming in rut around the Winter Solstice. Jills respond to increasing light, so start coming in around the Spring Solstice. In Tico's case, both Bev and Heather said that he was living in natural light at the time he came in rut last year and this year. Thus, there has to be another factor which brought him into rut much too early. The fact that his brothers also came in rut early last year (did they this year?) points to a genetic cause for this.
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Hobs
Nov 22, 2012 15:22:05 GMT -5
Post by crazylady on Nov 22, 2012 15:22:05 GMT -5
Hi joan in reply too Bev, if I understand you correctly, Tico came in rut last year approximately the same time as he did this year. If so, it appears that Heather did nothing wrong and that the lighting he lived in did not cause the early rut.
The polecat sisters I am talking about are in fact wild polecats !!! I am associated with a breed and release program there mother died when they were 3 weeks old and I was asked if I would take them and if possible they would be used in the future in the program they adapted to quickly to human intervention and therefore were not suitable for release when they were two years old ( they are now 7 ) we decided to try and use one for breeding with a wild hob at the center but mating was unsuccessful so I again offered a forever home non of these jills have ever been put to a domesticated polecat or bred from when not in season they act just like a domesticated polecat but once hormones take over there natural instincts kick in with regard to tico He was living in normal lighting outside and he simply matured early due to the time of year he was born his brothers came in at the same time and all went out at the same time they again came in at the correct time for England this year and are now all out ( remember tico went to heather as an adult not a kit ) at the moment tico is simply confused due to the fact his body clock received a couple of extra hours of artificial light ( mo who is un related is not in season but she was not subjected to the light ) I have ticos father mother grandfather grandmother and great grandmother non have ever had fertility problems ( infact they breed too well lol ) most of my hobs all tend to come into season around the same time and go out around the same time usually from feb /march to sept/october I have found with kits the first season being mixed up is not unusual as the body clock has not had time to right itself they have not over wintered and experienced long dark days compared to long light days once the body clock is running smooth they fall into the right season
hope this answers your questions take care bye for now Bev
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Hobs
Nov 22, 2012 15:48:10 GMT -5
Post by Heather on Nov 22, 2012 15:48:10 GMT -5
Joan....Tico was not in natural light this year. Tico has been playing out in the house with me. Yes, he was getting natural lighting but he was also playing for (much to my disgust when I calced it out....) for up to 5 or 6 hrs in artificial light at night with me. Yes, more than enough to bring a hob into season, even according to your ideas of lighting. You're awfully quick to classify him as abnormal, but somehow having a hob in season in May does not appear odd to me. Tico is a July baby....meaning his 6 months would be Feb.....he and his brother started coming into season in Feb/March though according to emails neither was in full season until April. Tico coming into season at this time of year is my fault, not the fault of his breeding unless you want to also claim that Mikey's Finn is also abnormal. Oh, and for the record....Tico's brother is not in season right now, because he's kept in entirely natural lighting and is not a housepet. This thread was not created for finger pointing and snarky remarks about how various breeders do things. I asked how each of you raised your hobs to create a healthy living condition. This was not to be a discussion on how each of you perceive the other to be right or wrong. How can anyone ask questions, learn or be honest in their answers if they're constantly chastised for their methods of keeping their hobs. This has gone from a constructive exercise of interest to petty bickering. Breeders get over it, it's not about you or your lines. I don't give a flying crap about what you breed....this thread is about care of your hobs. If you want people to buy from breeders, instead of supplying more fodder for the farm ferrets you're going to have to get off you high horses and learn to deal with the people who want your ferrets. This isn't about who has the best ferrets here, this is about people who like to keep multiple ferrets in their homes and how this actually might be possible. Have you ever once considered one of the reasons why people don't deal with breeders as a whole is that it's much simpler to deal with a pet store. Ladies, this isn't about you the breeders, this is about ferrets..... You all have methods that work for you. For the sake of all the gods, share those ideas and be prepared to answer questions about that. We don't care about the petty political bickering that goes on between breeders. IT DOESN'T MATTER, WE DON'T CARE. We want to know how to create a healthy environment for the hobs that we're going to be bringing home. LADIES.....I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THE DIFFERENT METHODS OF KEEPING HOBS....I DON'T WANT YOUR OPINIONS ON YOUR PEERS METHODS OR WHAT YOU THINK OF THEIR STOCK. I can't believe I can be so frustrated with what is "supposed" to be a group of adults. Joan, I have a high respect for you as a breeder, I've gone to you for answers many times. I would think you could do better with your answers than try and stir trouble with another (and you have been, these messages have been anything but subtle) ciao
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