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Hobs
Nov 19, 2012 16:44:11 GMT -5
Post by Heather on Nov 19, 2012 16:44:11 GMT -5
Ok, there are a number of people with hobs on the forum, both as pets and as breeders. If your ferret population has more than 1 intact male, what do you do with them? Off season? In Season? I'm presently reading a book and have also read a number of studies stating the "polecat" basically lives a solitary life (and there are a number of them, as not just the UK polecat that is believed to have been in part the origin of our ferret) The understanding is that polecats have territories, which may overlap with other polecats/ferret territories. The males, do not share space with each other but will be willing to share space with a number of female ferrets...now I'm not saying the same root hole either. Their territories cover kilometers. Except when the need is great, females avoid hobs...they can smell them a mile away (no kidding) . A number of jills may coexist within a hob's territory but also do not share space. Think satelites....even the wee jills do not cohabitate with each other. Hobs avoid hobs because it will result in a fight, sometimes very nasty (the book suggests to the death has occured, I've also read this in a couple of other studies too, so have no reason to argue this point). Now a ferret is not a polecat, though some of our ferrets have close polecat descendants. Our houses are not kilometers of space, the space is very tight. Our farm ferrets are used to living in small families...litters. I find the larger the business, and the closer to exceeding the average litter size the more internal squabbling occurs (just an observation, anyone can argue that point, I'm more than willing to listen). After all that.....the question is......How do your hobs live and whom to they share intimate space with? ciao
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Hobs
Nov 19, 2012 17:40:44 GMT -5
Post by nancyl on Nov 19, 2012 17:40:44 GMT -5
I've had Roddy since he was 16 weeks old (I think--it's been a while). I got him as a companion for Zoe so she would not have to live her life alone. She did not, and does not get along with anyone else. She fought all the early alters I had at the time I brought her in to the house. And Hoss absolutely hated her. She caught him sleeping in a tube once, beat the crap out of him and he never forgot. From then on, his idea was to attack first and he was vicious to her. So, Zoe picked Roddy out of the hob kits Joan had available and he came home with us. They have their own room and come out into the main part of the house to run twice a day for an hour or however long. The times are getting shorter these days since they're both getting up there. Zoe is 7, Roddy's 6.
Onyx and Cricket share space and a cage unless Cricket is in heat. Then they're split up. It's harder on Onyx than his sister. He's much more attached to her than she is to him. They live free roam in most of the house except for the times when Roddy and Zoe are out to run. I have made certain that the two pairs never meet without a barrier between them. The boys would fight for sure and Zoe's first action every time she comes out is to go to the cage and make ugly noises at Cricket. And she responds in kind. They would certainly fight till someone was badly hurt, at the least.
Nicholai lives alone in another room, for now. He is by far the most polecatty of the group and it's unlikely he'll ever be able to interact directly with another ferret except at breeding time. He's young enough the the older boys didn't seem to want to eat him but I don't think he reciprocates their good will. They sniff under the door at each other and he's the one who is ugly-making.
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Hobs
Nov 19, 2012 22:18:14 GMT -5
Post by Heather on Nov 19, 2012 22:18:14 GMT -5
Thanks Nancy. Your Nicholai sounds very much like my Tico. You mention that he's the more "polecatty" of your boys. He's one of your recent imports? Tico's encountered other ferrets but never actually had access to them, his reaction is not promising...for him to be accepting of a friend (basically on my lap, I was feeding my sickies and he had climbed up on my lap on his own). The wee sprites, he basically couldn't have a care and seemed more prepared to steal their soupy (though he did find them fascinating) but my jibs became a subject of intense, angry dooking and if I had not already been in the process of removing him he would have attacked. He loves his humans but has little care for other ferrets. He seems to be very happy to rumble around by himself. It also points that some hobs, like Finn, can be housed with other ferrets, perhaps only when they're out of season but with friends. You mention that Onyx and Cricket are housed together...you remove Onyx, only when Cricket is in season?, so he is without her for the whole season or only while Cricket is actually in season? You will pardon me please, my curiosity often drives many crazy I have always been a bane to my teachers and instructors existance The companion pair of Roddy and Zoe...is Zoe a spayed female or a jill? ciao
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Hobs
Nov 20, 2012 1:38:40 GMT -5
Post by joan on Nov 20, 2012 1:38:40 GMT -5
All my hobs have shared a cage and free roam time with a jill out of season. The first year a hob is in rut is the worst, as they have a one track mind...they could care less whether or not a jill is in heat and will even practice with another hob if given the opportunity. By the time they're 3 or so, they're been fine with the jill until she came in heat...and could be kept with a spayed jill with no problems.
It really depends on their personalities and temperaments, and how they've been raised from the time they're a few weeks old, as to whether they can get along with other hobs while in rut. Basil and Raven (his son) didn't have to be separated last year while they were in rut, as they played well together. Occasionally, Raven would decide to practise on his father and Basil would tolerate quite a bit before letting him know he'd had enough. Raven always backed off and there was peace for a week or two, until he had the urge to try again.
I also know of two polecat brothers who lived together their entire lives, including when they were in rut and had been used for breeding. They were separated for several weeks as young kits when they went to separate homes and, when they were reunited at around 4 months, were clearly overjoyed to see one another again. They were inseparable for the rest of their lives.
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Hobs
Nov 20, 2012 3:48:43 GMT -5
Post by lorelei0922 on Nov 20, 2012 3:48:43 GMT -5
personally... i have 4 un neutered hobs this year... they live winter time with the entire group... neutered and un neutered hobs and jills...
come spring just before its possible for the girls to come into season.. the boys are put in a group court together... then as the spring time comes along and they start getting frisky... they are seperated one by one... we have a pair that are happy to have company all year... we have a hob who will not live with a male but will happily accept the company of a neutered jill while in season without harrassing her...
come end of august /sept time.. they are dropping out of season and plopped back in the big group.... they have no problems re integrating back and forth..
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Hobs
Nov 20, 2012 8:32:54 GMT -5
Post by nancyl on Nov 20, 2012 8:32:54 GMT -5
No problems with questions Heather. Zoe is spayed. She was spayed by her former owners at 8/9 months. They couldn't resist the urge to have her out in artificial light every night and thus she was in heat at under 6 months. She had a jill jab and was spayed after the false had run its course. Now, she's adrenal due to the early spay. She's also the first jill from Joan's lines to have developed it. She'll be starting Lupron. She put the hurt on Roddy at the start and he has never pushed his luck with her. She can still give him a spanking.
Onyx and Cricket went back together as soon as I was sure she was falsed out. She has always been the boss there and continued to keep him on the straight and narrow throughout her whole not-pregnancy (and afterward).
Nicholai is the the Czech hob kit. He's hyper-alert and very wary and careful.
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Hobs
Nov 20, 2012 11:09:19 GMT -5
Post by joan on Nov 20, 2012 11:09:19 GMT -5
Zoe was actually just over 4 months old when she came in heat, due to being exposed to artificial lighting every night from the time her original owners took her (and her litter brother) home at 12 weeks. Her brother came in rut not too long afterwards. She was 6 1/2 months when she was spayed...far too early, but necessary to prevent an accidental breeding.
As Nancy said, this is the first one of my breeding to have developed adrenal disease. The first symptoms usually appear approximately 3 years after being altered, +/- 6 months either way, so it's interesting that Zoe went 7 years before showing any symptoms.
All my breeders and more than half of the pets I've bred/sold have been necropsied at their deaths (7-9 years old) and all of them so far have had normal adrenal glands. Most of the pets were altered prior to coming in heat/rut when they were at least 9-10 months old.
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Hobs
Nov 20, 2012 11:45:50 GMT -5
Post by Heather on Nov 20, 2012 11:45:50 GMT -5
**Joan-- Do all your hobs except the father and son live separately? They share time with their "special jill", is this just play time or do they actually live together? Have you ever tried to do introductions between a hob and another ferret later in a hob's life (say within the first 4 yrs of it's life)? Either another hob, or a jill intact or spayed? You mention the father and son team, how did you introduce a hob to a kit? According to anything I've read there is no bond between a hob and it's offspring, though I've heard of a number of people who have introduced father to sons. I would be guessing that it would be more a personality mesh...than a familiar bond. What personalities do you look for in your hobs?
**Heather (Lorelei)....Do your hobs pine at all for their friends during the summer? I'm just thinking of Finn. I know my 2 'bino brats would be devastated to be separated, though they came close after Bacchus was with Lady Morgain (they both got bathed and then everything was ok again)
**Have any of you ever had hobs that you just would not or could not integrate with a friend? Who basically chose a solo life. ciao
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Hobs
Nov 21, 2012 11:57:21 GMT -5
Post by joan on Nov 21, 2012 11:57:21 GMT -5
The kits I'm growing out all live together through 5-6 months. The jills are quite good at teaching their brothers that they really don't appreciate their amorous intentions, although I do keep the hobs in a separate cage after that age if they're too insistent on practising. They still free roam with the others when it's their time to be out in the house. I think most of the problems with a intact hob are created by caging him alone at a young age, as he never learns how to interact properly with other ferrets.
The hobs are caged with a jill if I have a compatible pair. The interesting thing is that they do seem to recognize relatives, even ones they don't know, and will get along or at least tolerate them in the same room, while they are extremely aggressive toward ones who are not related. I think I discussed this with Marie years ago, as I'm fairly certain that relatives have similar odors and so aren't considered intruders to the same degree that an unrelated ferret is.
I introduce the hob to his offspring when they're around 8-9 weeks old, and they've always been very gentle with them until the kits are big enough to rough house with. The theory is that the hob recognizes their dam's odor on them...and he memorized that while he was tied to her during their breeding(s).
What I look for in a hob is a calm, stable temperament and an outgoing personality as I breed for a people oriented personality. The jills will be more reserved with people they don't know after they're 4-5 months old, but I prefer the hobs who continue to be friendly with everyone they meet.
Edited to add that I've never had a hob who could not be integrated with, and live with, a jill eventually, usually one of his daughters if the hob was older and unrelated to the ones I had when he arrived. One who prefers to be solo probably was not socialized properly to other ferrets while he was growing up...it's not the ferret's fault, but that of his owner or breeder.
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Hobs
Nov 21, 2012 17:16:24 GMT -5
Post by Heather on Nov 21, 2012 17:16:24 GMT -5
I think generalized statements are often not beneficial to anyone and most times overlook circumstances. This statement could have easily been left out with the rest of your statement still bringing beneficial knowledge to everyone reading this thread.
"Edited to add that I've never had a hob who could not be integrated with, and live with, a jill eventually, usually one of his daughters if the hob was older and unrelated to the ones I had when he arrived. One who prefers to be solo probably was not socialized properly to other ferrets while he was growing up...it's not the ferret's fault, but that of his owner or breeder". The gaff implied by stating I have no idea how to raise my hob so that he is social is such a generalized statement and takes into no consideration at all that he was raised as a solo because I had nothing over here to offer as a suitable companion. Tico was originally supposed to travel here with his brother (a v-hob). It was then decided because the two boys were absolute replicas of one another (me being an absolute newb) and I was already buying an albino that we would use one of the albino siblings as a v-hob (would be an absolute mess to have put my wee girl in with a supposed v-hob only to discover she was pregers now wouldn't it). Tico was removed from his brother so that he would not bond to him and be devastated upon leaving. Both boys were such curmudgeons anyway that they would probably have not cohabitated well with each other during the rut anyway. As far as making friends with the wee jill that was to come across that couldn't happen either. Lady Morgain was not the first wee lady that was picked, and in the end she was chosen over her sister, Destiny. Again this would have been devastating for a young fellow to have to again renew acquaintances and go through the whole "make a new friend" thing plus having to make a new home too. Tico is a miscreant when having to share time with his humans, he's a lovely social character who loves human attention. He's aloof, as is most of his kind when meeting new people but will warm up quickly enough if the new people are friendly to him. Perhap, in time he too, will find a friend in one of his daughters....but until that time he will fly solo. I opened this thread to find out how people housed their hobs as there are many people starting to keep intact ferrets. The idea was to share ideas on what worked for them, not to make them feel inadequate or intimidated or to feel they've done something wrong because their hobs were solo or did not integrate well with what ferrets they have. Hobs are very much their own person and as Mikey found out, finding a "special" friend doesn't happen overnight or all the time.
ciao
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Hobs
Nov 21, 2012 20:45:56 GMT -5
Post by joan on Nov 21, 2012 20:45:56 GMT -5
Heather, I'm sorry that you seem to have a problem with what I posted. In answering your questions, I was generalizing from my own experience and that of other long time breeders. I must have missed your posts about Tico, as I had no idea that what I wrote applied to him. And, since you didn't raise him, you aren't responsible for whatever his attitudes are toward your other ferrets.
The only time my intact hobs are totally solitary, in and out of the cage, is when they're in rut or I don't have a jill who will accept them as a playmate/cage mate when they're out of rut. Are you saying that Tico had no interaction with other ferrets from a young age on? I can understand separating him from his litter brother if they were aggressive with one another when they began to mature. But, even if he wasn't allowed to live with a jill so that he wouldn't bond to her, was there some reason he wasn't allowed to at least play with other ferrets during his out of cage time before he came in rut? I guess these questions should be directed to his breeder, rather than to you.
As an example, I've been integrating a stud fee hob kit with my intact jills for the past month...Rocco was just under 6 months old when he arrived. He had grown up with his litter brother and sister, as well as a cousin for a month or so before I got him from his breeder. I think he also had some contact with her early neuters, so did have some experience with meeting ferrets he wasn't related to.
Rocco was delighted to meet his half sisters, one of whom is a few days younger than he is. They were somewhat less than thrilled with his boisterous antics, but accepted him as a play mate. He's a typical teenage hob, so doesn't share a cage with any of the jills but they have play time together daily. My Czech jill kit made it clear that she wanted to kill him when he first arrived, but slowly began to tolerate him and they played together for the first time yesterday.
I certainly did not post to intimidate you or make you feel inadequate. I posted to answer your questions. From everything Mikey has posted, Finn appears to be a typical breeder hob who was well socialized both to people and other ferrets by his breeder and then by Mikey.
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Post by Sherry on Nov 21, 2012 22:27:26 GMT -5
Odd. I've always been under the impression from a wide variety if breeders that I've spoken to that hobs as a rule tend to live a more solitary lifestyle- in rut or out, as do all of their more wild counterparts.
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Hobs
Nov 21, 2012 22:42:54 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2012 22:42:54 GMT -5
This is a difficult subject..... I have read that ferts/polecats ARE solitary in the wild. I have also read that crowding (such as in shelters) increases stress levels and exacerbates disease/adrenal, etc.
I have OBSERVED the following; * my early alters would sleep together 50%of the time. * my late alters VERY, VERY RARELY sleep together - they have a LOT of room and choices. They tend to remain solitary by choice, but they do play together and care for each other. They seem to require privacy.
-jennifer
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Hobs
Nov 21, 2012 23:21:26 GMT -5
Post by joan on Nov 21, 2012 23:21:26 GMT -5
I think these exerpts from "Reproduction, Development, & Inheritance in the Ferret by Faro Shimbo and Mary Maday are applicable to this discussion:
The idea that a hob "needs" to be aggressive to a jill is an entire fabrication; aggression in a mating hob is ABNORMAL and a sign that something is wrong with the hob What is usually wrong is the ferretry management.
While not gregarious, ferrets are social creatures and need the company -or at the very least, need some means of communicating - with others of their kind. Unfortunately, part of the macho myths circulating around most entire male mammals teaches people that a stud animal should be housed alone or else they will fight, and, often because of their smell and the roughness of their play, many hob owners end up isolating their hobs, often from kithood. The problem with this is that the critical period for intraspecies socialization comes and goes, and the poor hob has no chance ti interact with other ferrets and learn what being a ferret is all about.
Hobs are in fact rarely aggressive. They'll fight other hobs they don't know during the breeding season, but will get along fine outside it, so long as they are allowed regular exercise and time to make their own accommodations as regards relative social status (which, having made, they will promptly ignore). There are, however, an extremely small number of hobs who are aggressive even though they are well bred, well handled, well fed, and in good health. They're just plain nuts, which can happen to anyone, and they should be gibs.
Hobs who cannot get along with other ferrets, regardless of the reason, should not be used for breeding. Remember that we are breeding companion animals and our goal is even tempered, well socialized, easy going personalities. If you don't know exactly WHY an animal is being aggressive, shy or overly feisty, and it is not something you can fix, you must assume that it is probably inheritable, and fix the hob instead.
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Hobs
Nov 21, 2012 23:27:13 GMT -5
Post by Sherry on Nov 21, 2012 23:27:13 GMT -5
That being a given- I have to wonder why weasels in the wild are always found as solos, other than male/female in breeding season?
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