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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2012 14:47:21 GMT -5
I posted a bit about them on the rescue thread, but want to expand on some specific questions.
Jill- I have no idea if she is pregnant. She is malnurished, but was housed with the hob. Her vulva is enlarged. Does that mean she is still in heat? Vets around here never see intack ferrets as it is illegal to sell them intact or breed them without a license in Fl. What is a jill jab? Does she need taken out of heat, assuming she isn't pregnant, before having her spayed? All advise is welcome and needed.
Hob- He is the healthiest out of the bunch. He seems to be settling in and have allowed me to pick him up briefly and touch him briefly without bitting me. He was very aggressive in the cage with the Jill when I rescued him. Is there any appropriate timing to have him neutered or is it like a dog, whenever he is healthy enough. I must say that he is very dense. I'm wondering just how big he will get with real food to eat. we are calling him Harry because he has the hairiest feet I've seen. Will he become agressive again if the Jill is in the same room? I already have an adrenal girl in the same room, but a different cage.
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Post by crazylady on Nov 17, 2012 15:00:10 GMT -5
Hi if the vulva is enlarged she is either in season or adrenal you have three options separate her and see if the vulva goes down in the next 5-7 days ( if it does then he has mated her and there is a possibility she is pregnant ) option two get a jill jab and wait 42 days for her to go through a phantom pregnancy and then get her spayed option 3 simply have her spayed now as if she has just been mated by him she wont be far enough on for the foetuses to be fully formed and if she is in such bad condition as you say then there is a possibility the foetuses could be born with problems next on to the hob if both testicles are down then it is easier for the vet to fix him now ( simply feel between his legs for two testicles ) if they have shrunken or you cannot feel anything then its harder for the vet to operate as they will have to go searching for them good luck please let us know how things work out take care bye for now Bev
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Post by Heather on Nov 17, 2012 15:11:17 GMT -5
Did you check back on your thread? Heather answered your question regarding the jill jab. She gave the name of the specific drug you needed to ask for. Another thing you can use is the DES implant, but...you have to find out if the ferret is pregers or not. If her vulva is still enlarged she may not have been impregnated yet, she may not have been quite ready. A ferret has a 42 day gestation give or take 2 days. It is commonly adviced to bring her out of season before spaying. There is less chance of hemoraging and loosing the wee jill. Considering your description of her state, I would want her fully out of season with some weight coming on before altering her. Your hob if he's in full season too, can be altered at any time. It's easier to find all the bits if he's in season. During the winter they tuck up the equipment and if the vet is a bit green about the surgery, it's a bit more difficult. According to my vet it's not any different than altering a male cat (if the ferret is in full rut). Yes, your boy would be more bitey and is often more bitey in season. My boy is an absolute lovey but is nippy when around a jill in season. An adrenal ferret isn't a jill in season and they smell nothing similar (if I can smell it then I'm sure that a hob would know the difference in a flash). There is something acidic, something sick about the smell of an adrenal ferret. A jill in full rut smells similar to the hob (a lot less) but it's a musky scent. An adrenal ferret smells like a bag of burning dirty socks ciao
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2012 19:29:47 GMT -5
Thank you both for the info. Very helpful. No, the other thread showed no new posts. Thanks for the heads up. We were able to see his boy bits while he was sleeping. I had been told that they aren't able to retract them. He is something very very rare around here.
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Post by Heather on Nov 17, 2012 20:00:11 GMT -5
The boys retract their bits to almost non-existance when they're out of season. They will sometimes retain little peas but believe me it's nothing to what they have when they're in full season. Take a look at a pic that Mikey posted of Finn I would not want to be the vet who had to go playing search and find for Enigma's manly bits right now ;D ciao
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nanjferret
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Post by nanjferret on Nov 17, 2012 22:41:04 GMT -5
It isn't illegal to have or breed ferrets intact in Fla. That said, I see you are in NW Fla and if near Bayonet Point or in that general area I know of a vet that is very familiar with intact ferrets and ferrets in general that could tell you what exactly is going on and is extremely ferret knowledgeable. Keep him separated and he can be fixed anytime. The jill as said above could be whole or could be adrenal. If she is whole and is in season she must be taken out (falsed using Deslorelin, Lupron or other hormone ) immediately somehow or she could die which might be why she looks so poorly anyways. If she's been bred by him already it can take a week or so for the swelling to go down. The only time it's difficult to neuter is if the bits are not down due to having a genetic issue where they stay up into the abdomen which is rare.
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Post by Heather on Nov 17, 2012 22:55:32 GMT -5
On the hypothetical (not necessarily this jill though it could be) and my incessant need for asking questions ....what if you used any of the drugs (jill jab, DES or lupron) to take the jill out (being the assumption that she's not pregnant) and discovered she was indeed pregnant. Would she then abort the fetuses? Would any of the hormone injections (drugs is the wrong term for these injections) be better for a jill who had been recently impregnated (better to use if an abortion was the desired result?) Is damage to the jill possible if these hormones are injected into a jill who is pregnant? ciao
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nanjferret
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Post by nanjferret on Nov 18, 2012 13:23:48 GMT -5
That's a good question and one I can't answer, maybe someone else can. The issue here is sticky as if this is truly a jill in heat then she has a limited time until she can start to become anemic from being in heat too long. Say she was bred by the hob the day before she was rescued, I would think give it a week and if she is still very swollen with no change then she is still "In". A false , which can happen even using a whole male, will have the vulva going down in size slower but it will still go down. A Des implant after a week wait would take care of the in heat issue (assuming that is what is happening and she doesn't display any change) or could also take care of the issue if this was a case of adrenal. My bet is this is a whole jill as the boy is too and they were probably bought as a pair. This is late in the season for jills to be in heat but it does happen. My concern for the jill is if she is so poorly looking she may have been in heat too long already and it has started to affect her. And, as said above, if she is not in good health she may not be able to survive an operation right now. Dr Wagner would be able to give the vet more info on this.
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Post by Heather on Nov 18, 2012 13:56:51 GMT -5
Thanks, it's just that we're going to have to be more aware of various repercussions as more and more intact ferrets come into the hands of casual pet owners. To recommend any of the three hormone solutions would be negligent on our part if we are unaware of the possible issues involved if done to a pregnant ferret vs a fuzz who is just in full season. In the case of an seasoning jill, whom you don't know how long she's been in season (as in this rescue, assuming she is in season vs adrenal) would the jill jab or the lupron be better to use as DES (only have experience using this with adrenal) takes longer to work? In the case of the jill jab, it sometimes doesn't take the first time....if you used the DES and it didn't bring the jill out, what recourse would you have to bring her out? I've seen the levels of the surge up to 6 weeks after the implant, I would be concerned about using another option but if her health lies in balance on the length of time that she's been in season in the first place??? Sorry, lots of questions but as I mentioned I'm very curious about the side issues involved in using the various hormonal alternatives. ciao
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nanjferret
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Post by nanjferret on Nov 18, 2012 14:19:10 GMT -5
The jill jab in my experience sometimes doesn't work the first time or not at all and does take awhile to work. Lupron or the Des implant works right away, within a few days. I used the Des implant last year for the first time to take a jill out if heat and it worked almost overnight. I was amazed at how fast. Of course that is only one instance and can't say if that is the case all the time. Dr. Wagner at the last symposium did say it works quickly and works the same as Lupron would. Any of them will put the jill into a false pregnancy so she will feel and act as if she is pregnant for the 42 days. You do have to watch for pyometra infections anytime a jill is falsed so having a good vet is crucial. If I am in doubt at all my girls will get an ultrasound at 4 weeks along to verify no infection or if kits are present. Note, an xray will not show anything until the unborn kits are basically to term as their bones do not calcify until then and even then it might be iffy to see. I don't like to xray anyways on unborn kits. The other thread on this noted the vet saying the jill jab would not affect a pregnancy. Makes sense as the jab is basically hormones putting the jill into a false pregnancy.
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Post by crazylady on Nov 18, 2012 15:38:52 GMT -5
Hi if a jill has been in season a long time very often the vulva is very white looking very dry and she may also have hair loss around the vulva on the belly and in extreme cases on the neck itself if it appears moist and pinkish then she has not be in for a long time also if you look at the vulva its also possible to tell if penetration has taken place in the last few days ( it will appear slightly open ) once mated the vulva begins to dry turn whitish and shrink like a deflated ballon ( I should add in full season its like a doughnut ) but it does not return to its tight small shape it can take any where from four days to ten days to begin to go down after mating depending on the jill ( oh as a second thought does her neck look sore or is any skin broken on her neck that is also a sign mating may of taken place ) I can honestly say I have never had any problems with the jill jab when I have resorted to using it on my old jills but timing is everything I normally use it day 12-14 of there seasonal cycle but in this case this will be hard to do as you have no info as to when it commenced take care bye for now Bev
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2012 20:28:28 GMT -5
I'll look again tomorrow, but I recall a white color. The rescue is in the red and I've spent all my cash, so I need a reliable, inexpensive method. Des will cost a fortune, but I know my regular vet carries lupron. She is very active and putting on weight.
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Post by Heather on Nov 18, 2012 23:15:36 GMT -5
One thing to consider is that the DES will chemically alter her for at least 18 months to 2 yrs. Just a thought, it would mean that a surgical alter could be put off for much longer. I know that it costs me exactly the same amount for lupron (1 month) vs DES implant. I'm glad to hear that you're seeing improvements. I hope she continues to progress ciao
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2012 9:52:03 GMT -5
If I was keeping her des would be how I would go. However, I'm concerned about what will happen when she is adopted. Vets around here don't carry des, I just finally got one to. None had even heard of it. I'm not sure it will be in her best interrest not to have her spayed...
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Post by lorelei0922 on Nov 19, 2012 10:02:59 GMT -5
considering that she will be adopted out i would have her spayed... taking care of an intact jill takes time, energy and education that some ferret owners just dont have and you cant leave it to the possibly unknown responsibility of a relative stranger to be sure she is looked after properly if left intact.
the Jab and spay in 2 weeks time is what we would recommend here in the UK indeed NO ferrets leave a reputable rescue un neutered!
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