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Post by crazylady on Oct 27, 2012 17:02:49 GMT -5
Hi I know a lot of you have been left scratching your heads over the debate on the breeder board as to what is produced when such and such is mated to one another the easiest way I can explain it and show it is using a litter of my own kits ( which as you will see grew into adults lol ) in the following link are kc matlock and black magic ( 3 heads across my hand ) there mother ebbony was a 5th generation polecat as was there father Pantha by the age of 7 days ( which was the first time I held and sexed them with moms permission ) they were a dark silver showing the tell tale eyeliner round the eyes,black noses and black eyes under the skin at 5 weeks matlock was already showing the hood which most true polecat kits carry ( thick black line between eyes to nose and only had small white eyebrows and white around the muzzle by the age of 18 months ( last pic matlock and kc ) they are fully grown and they are in full winter coat which has a blacky/ browny tinge ( lighter in winter darker in summer ) but even in winter coat they retain the black nose black mask and the eyebrows become more defined the undercoat also still retains its yellow tinge ( most true poleys carry a yellow /golden undercoat ) here is the link enjoy take care bye for now Bev holisticferret60.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=introductions&action=display&thread=1104&page=2
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Post by joan on Oct 27, 2012 19:38:03 GMT -5
Do the hairless areas on their abdomens fill in when they get their winter coats? And is this common in the UK? I'd never seen that in any of mine prior to getting Basil and Cybill.
Their abdomens were fully haired when I got them in November 2010, but thinned out in the spring and only fully regrew hair there in the late fall when they got their winter coats. Their kits in both litters have had largely bare skin in that area until they start getting winter coats. I just got Basil's almost 6 month old son ex an unrelated jill a week ago and he has much less hair in that area, as well, so it's apparently a dominant trait.
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Post by lorelei0922 on Oct 28, 2012 2:51:41 GMT -5
I have a high percentage Hybrid Ciaran who does this Joan... its a seasonal stress thing i think.. and yes he's filled in lovely for the winter!
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Post by crazylady on Oct 28, 2012 16:20:14 GMT -5
yep normally they loose the thick tummy hair in spring its a way of keeping cool ( its more noticeable on the males as they also need to ensure the jewels are cool to ensure good sperm production ) you will find the older they get the slower the regrowth of hair too ( if for example a male gets rats tail when he is three or four it can often take 9-10 months before the tail is fully covered again ) I know it looks strange but its normal and more noticeable on the dark ones lol take care bye for now Bev
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Post by joan on Nov 3, 2012 12:28:27 GMT -5
I have a high percentage Hybrid Ciaran who does this Joan... its a seasonal stress thing i think.. and yes he's filled in lovely for the winter! I don't think this is the same thing, as these only have the sparsely coated or bare abdomens as young kits. Are you referring to the weird shed that Ciaran did last spring? While I've had both ferrets and high content hybrids develop varying degrees of rat tail in late spring or summer, I've never had a hob shed other than that until mid summer when they begin to shed their undercoats. In late fall, they shed out their guard hairs as they begin to grow their winter coats. I have heard, and seen pics, of early neuters who shed out in the spring, but these were all kept in the same temperature and lighting year round.
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Post by joan on Nov 3, 2012 12:45:39 GMT -5
yep normally they loose the thick tummy hair in spring its a way of keeping cool ( its more noticeable on the males as they also need to ensure the jewels are cool to ensure good sperm production ) you will find the older they get the slower the regrowth of hair too ( if for example a male gets rats tail when he is three or four it can often take 9-10 months before the tail is fully covered again ) I know it looks strange but its normal and more noticeable on the dark ones lol take care bye for now Bev I'd never heard that pne before, Bev, and I've never had any hobs shed out their abdominal hair until mid summer when they shed out undercoat...the thick abdominal hair certainly didn't affect their sperm production as they usually sired litters of 10 or more. It's actually more noticeable on the jills, as they shed out completely about 4 weeks after they were bred or falsed out. At that time, the hair around their nipples either shed out completely or becomes very sparse. My previous ferret and hybrid hobs all developed varying degrees of rat tail by late spring or early summer, but the tail always filled in when the grew their winter coats in the fall. I've never noticed any difference in the length of time it took to regrew the tail hair as they grew older, as they always had fully haired tails shortly after they began growing their winter coats.
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Post by crazylady on Nov 3, 2012 13:42:09 GMT -5
Hi Joan it maybe different for ours over here lol being outside they get thick thick coats lol( and boy do they need it lol its only nov 3rd and all ready we are into minus weather lol ) but once the temp goes up a few degrees undercoat and belly hair drops out really fast the belly hair and the hair around the jewels quickly becomes greasy and golden but it is in now way as thick as it was lol ( in between the back legs it just looks a thin browny yellow greasy mess lol ) most of the males dont get full rat tail but they do loose hair on the underneath of the tail they often have wierd shedding patterns too they may shed parts of the front legs first then as that grows in they shed back legs then they shed the sides of the body and finally the backs until the undercoat is fine and the guard hairs are tight and dark guess where you are and temps surrounding them play a big part in how fast they shed and how much they shed ( maybe being in a controlled environment with air conditioning can help with shedding too ) take care bye for now Bev
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Post by joan on Nov 3, 2012 15:14:16 GMT -5
Bev, I've never seen or heard of anything like what you're describing in any European or UK ferrets, hybrids or polecats.
Edited to add that the time and pattern of shedding in mine is the same as those of the European and UK breeders I've corresponded with over the years who keep theirs outside.
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Post by crazylady on Nov 4, 2012 5:36:07 GMT -5
LoL well I guess I just have crazy ferrets lol but I must admit a lot of my old pals experience the same thing with there's take care bye for now Bev
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Post by crazylady on Nov 4, 2012 5:41:15 GMT -5
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Post by joan on Nov 4, 2012 9:13:46 GMT -5
Bev, perhaps you're exaggerating, but I feel it's important to point out that a healthy and well kept hob should not have "a thin browny yellow greasy mess between the back legs" at any time in the year. There are many people on this forum who are not familiar with intact ferrets, and I think it would be unfortunate if they were to believe this to be a normal condition in a hob in rut.
The pic of Raven's abdomen isn't typical, as he was regrowing the hair that had been shaved when he was neutered a few weeks previous. He had been out of rut for a couple months and had retracted both testicles after they'd shrunk to the size of peas, so the vets (who had never neutered a hob before) weren't sure where they would be located and shaved much more hair than was really necessary.
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Post by crazylady on Nov 4, 2012 10:18:51 GMT -5
Hi joan a lot of hobs become greasy around the testicles ( even albinos ) the hormone production colours the hair between the legs and on the testicles to a gingery orange colour ( no matter how clean you keep them) the depth of the colour varies depending on the hormone levels in the males I was un aware your vets did castrations in this manner as over in england the only time a male is shaved is if the hob is a crypto and they need to search for a missing testicle obviously your males in america show different patterns when they come into season thats is interesting to learn I guess everyones hobs are different take care bye for now Bev
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Post by joan on Nov 4, 2012 10:31:39 GMT -5
It's quite common for polecats and high content hybrids to retract their testicles when they're not in rut, especially during cold weather. I usually get them in for neutering as soon as they're completely out of rut, so that both testicles are still down and the castration is a simple operation. I had waited to get Raven done until his younger brother and a couple of his sisters were old enough to be sure that they had the overall quality, type, and temperament for future breeding.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2012 10:51:47 GMT -5
Maybe some others with intact hobs can chime in? I was under the impression that all hobs in rut get very greasy and oily. I would assume this would also happen between the legs? Or am I off base here? I think this whole discussion is pretty interesting though, and I appreciate both of your input
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Post by Heather on Nov 4, 2012 12:27:30 GMT -5
They do get greasy, very greasy, Jackie. I'm sure that Mikey can attest to that because right now his gorgeous wee Finn is in full season (lighting is a huge factor) Taking on an intact hob is not to be taken lightly. The first time I tried it, I was overwhelmed, disgusted. Odin was my first experience with a hob. I had fertsat him over Christmas and he was a sweet boy, gentle, loving and smelled of kibbles . In May/June his owner called me up and because of circumstances she could no longer care for him, Thor and Loki. She had managed to alter Thor but could not afford to alter Odin. I was totally unprepared for the dirty, smelly creature I got handed. She said she had bathed him but he reeked, his coat felt coarse and he was sticky and yes....he had these greasy, orange manly bits....he also sported eye make-up (something none of my hobs presently do, no he didn't have an eye infection). He slid everywhere. He no longer walked. He oozed over the furniture, leaving a slime trail behind him (an exageration to be sure but for the uninitiated that's what it appeared). He was short tempered with his ferret friends but luckily never had to be separated. He was still very loving to his people. I thought because of this woman circumstances that she had just let the care of the boys go. I bathed Odin (I know now, don't do that unless you want really greasy boys). I scrubbed him down. He came out of it gleaming. A gorgeous white albino. He stunk to high heavens though....a wet ferret is worse than a dry ferret but a wet hob is disgusting . A wet kibble fed hob is beyond disgusting . There a beautiful gleaming ferret . The next morning, he was sporting his eye makeup again . Dark yellow, around the eyes, making the eye look almost weepy. Think poodles and some of the toy breeds and you've got the gist of it. By nightfall, his manly bits were once again yellowing, parts of his coat, especially his belly fur was once again yellow. Dirt appeared to stick to him He was a dirt magnet (he was just greasy). As the week progressed he got dirtier, smellier. His coat felt coarse, not soft like the other guys, sticky. Yes, he was particularly oily around his bits and his eyes. No, he wasn't unhealthy, just being a greasy hob. He remained intact for a month, by that time he had been bathed twice....yes it just made the oil production twice as bad. If you laid him along your arm (I would carry my farm ferrets with their legs hanging on either side of my arm) he would actually leave an oily residue. He looked dirty, perpetually. I then felt guilty.....why? because I had made some disparaging remarks about his care. It wasn't his care that was at fault, he was just a hob. I was better prepared for what I was to expect when I got my UK crew. Bev had mentioned how greasy Tico was (more so than the 'bino crew) but he wasn't as bad as Odin was. Not even close. Yes, he was greasy, oily and he stank but not anything I wasn't expecting. She described him rather similar to what she described in an early post but truthfully, it wasn't near that bad (I think a bit of an exageration as to how oily they actually are). I had considered using Mikey's method of washing him down if he was as bad as Bev had described...but he wasn't horrible. Compared to a wee jill, yes...he stank and he was oily and yes, he was oilier along his belly and his bits, but not horribly so. If you ran your hand down him, you would pull your hand away to find that your hand actually felt oily or sticky. He also wasn't as bad about sliming as Odin had been. He wasn't ever introduced to the tub for a bathing so he could be more acceptable. We did horrible things when we bathed Odin, no his bits didn't get as dark but he was bathed....continuously. The 'binos did sport oily dark bits. They did get a bath. Not because they were dirty oily but because Bacchus was with Lady Morgain and his brother was jealous. So, for the sake of keeping peace both boys got a bath (much to their disgust) so they both smelled equally "pretty" ;D Within a very short period, their bits were dark once again. Now, you would never know they had any. Enigma's are totally pulled up and Bacchus' is nothing but tiny wee peas both boys bits are now white. In fact they're all a pretty white (as much as albinos are really white while intact). Like Mikey, I made the mistake of allowing my Tico more out lighted time than was proper and brought him into season. Once again I had an oily stink ball . Keeping him in the dark has pulled him back out of season and I noticed yesterday that his beautiful winter coat is now softer and not oily. His undercoat still a gorgeous, golden colour caused by the oils but it's no longer greasy and he no longer smells bad. ciao
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