Post by katt on Mar 17, 2011 3:21:20 GMT -5
It seems to be everywhere! 
Here is a PM convo maddy and I had. I would like some input on my conjectures. As I said, I was basically just going off of the limited info I know, and my Bio background, but without knowing the exact mechanisms and hormones involved. *needs to do some research*
Bold is Maddy and normal text is me. I removed some of the less-relevent-to-this-thread text but it is still a novel sorry.
We seem to be in the same boat... I am just soooo distraught over this! Idk for sure, but MegaWeasel is showing some possible signs. He was fat and fluffy all summer and actually shed his coat in fall when everyone else got theirs. I know some people say this could be due to mixed up seasons since he was born in the fall rather than the spring. I got him in Jan of 2010, so I think he is about a year and 4 months.
Koda is roughly the same age, and as I bought him in mid Dec would have been born around the same time as MegaWeasel. His seasons are not reversed. I know it does not happen to all winter babies, but just as a comparison...
Anyway, what are YOUR personal thoughts on adrenal preventatives?
Jennifer (Mustelidmusk) is the best person to talk to about adrenal. She has done it all and put TONS of time into research. Here is what I have learned and experienced so far...
Melatonin - used to treat symptoms. Can be given orally, or as an implant. The implants tend to be better as the oral meds must be given twice a day on time exactly.
Lupron - Preventative lupron is a 4-month shot administered between Jan-early March. The idea is to prevent the seasonal hormone spike come late winter and protect the adrenal gland a bit. Treatment lupron can be given in 3-4 month, or 1 month shots and I guess depends on your area. Here it is one-monthly. The first shot takes about 3-4 weeks to kick in. Koda got his exactly two weeks ago. The mounting behavior stopped, then came back but overall is greatly toned down. The itching/shedding is new as of last week. Not sure if this would have happened (possibly worse) without the shot, if the shot made it worse (doubtful), or if the shot is just not working, OR just that it was going to happen anyways and the shot just has not kicked in yet. Regardless, I know I still have 2 weeks before the max time it could take for the shot to kick in, but I am still Not Impressed.
Deslorein implants - from everything I have read this is the best option. It seems to be the most effective, and the most cost effective. It is a small implant given once every 6 months. Here is a great PDF on it that Heather Green - Merlin's mommy - gave me.
www.safa.com.au/media/file/newsletters/2010-05-may.pdf
I am trying to order the des implants, but I have not heard back from my vet on a price yet.
Anyway! I asked him his opinion on adrenal preventatives such as the des implant and he said he believes that there is no such thing as an adrenal preventative, and that the lupron or des will only MASK the symptoms while the tumor still grows. He said that he thinks you are medicating/treating something that isn't there.
Ok so on this and the words of the other vet. This is true. Sadly. I want to do some more research into this though because as a Bio major I find it a bit contradicting. Here is why - I am fuzzy with the details so bear with me. lol
The adrenal gland produces hormones to compensate for the lack of gonads, however it is not really made to be the sole supplier of these hormones. Because there are no gonads to produce the hormones and provide a negative feedback to turn off the adrenal gland, it continues to overproduce hormones. After doing this for too long, it begins to become diseased. The cells get all funky (yes that's the technical term
rofl ok not really), and then eventually they begin to seriously malfunction and become cancerous. So when breeding season comes along, the adrenal glad kicks into high gear. As breeding season finishes, it keeps producing the hormones but tones it down just a teeny bit I think. Could be it tones down in some ferrets and less in others and the ones it does not tone down get adrenal younger. Either way, it does not know when to turn off, and with no gonads for negative feedback can't know to turn off.
The idea behind preventative Lupron is, by the impression I have been given, to prevent the seasonal hormone spike in the first place by providing a negative feedback via hormone injection. I am not sure of the exact hormone in Lupron and how it works in the ferret's body, but I would like to find out. Then I could have a clearer picture. After school this summer I might do a little more in depth research. Earlier if I have time.
Treatment Lupron/Des you are just battling the already spiked hormone levels. Not knowing the mechanisms in details, all I can guess at this point in time is that already being in such high gear, you can't turn the gland off at this point - it is already on. So you just have to try to counteract the effects of the hormone levels by counterbalancing with other hormones. The adrenal glad meanwhile continues to become diseased. Hence the masking of the symptoms, but not the curing/prevention of the disease.
Lupron is given, then has to be given again after a month or 4 depending on the shot. I can see how des might be more effective simply because as a 6 month slow release implant, the des-hormones are staying pretty stable as opposed to say a monthly Lupron shot where you get the initial spike of Lupron-hormones, then it fades by the end of the month, then peaks and fades. Please keep in mind this is all educated conjecture on my part. I am going off of my knowledge of basic physiology and biology, but a very limited knowledge of the exact interactions, hormones, and mechanisms both of the disease and the treatments. Based off of my science background and what I have read/been told about adrenal and treatments this is the best I can figure.
What would make MORE sense to me is that if the preventative Lupron can supposedly (I don't think they really know) stop the adrenal from overproducing when given before the seasonal hormone spike, then it should be able to turn it off after the spike too. Maybe a higher dose is in order. In theory, a drug that blocks the production of hormones (this could have other side effects), or creates a negative feedback for the adrenal gland strong enough to be comparable to what the gonads would produce, should be able to Prevent the disease, and keep the gland from becoming diseased. If one stopped giving the hormone drugs though, then the adrenal overproduction would resume and we'd be back at square one. That makes sense to me. And perhaps that IS how it works, and why it seems to only mask the symptoms because when stopped, the problem returns.
That also does not explain the fact that the land still continues to become diseased in many, many ferrets even with ongoing treatment.
That is my take on it given the info and impressions I have been given.
Anyway, emailed and asked them about their opinion on adrenal preventative using the des implant and they told me that the recommend season lupron shots given somewhere from Jan thru March and that the des implant looked promising, but wasn't available to US practitioners (which according to people here is false, so I think I will call them about that later today).
First off, the reason Lupron is "given" in those times is as preventative Lupron because you really want to give it BEFORE the seasonal hormone spike. Treatment Lupron for a ferret who is already adrenal should be continued monthly. And for a period of at LEAST 3-4 months. If the behavior and other symptoms improves, then the monthly shots should be continued.
And Des is absolutely available to US vets. However, it is manufactured in Australia and thus must be imported. There are import fees, and the vet needs a certain license to get them. At least according to my vet. Perhaps your vet does not have the license... Also, as was recommended to me by Heather (Merlin's Mommy) is that it might be worth looking into having your vet get the implants from another vet nearby in the US who already has the implants. It might (or may not) be less expensive and may be a way around the permit and importation fees issue. I don't know...
I am just wary about telling vets that I am on a ferret forum bc I don't want the 'you can't believe everything you read online' or 'well are they licensed vets' or whatever...idk if that makes sense?
I feel the SAME exact way. Yes I VERY strongly respect their knowledge and training. As someone going into the med field I know that they DO know a LOT (well...most of them) and had to work hard as h*ll to get there. They have had intensive training and education in the field. They are experts. However, not every vet is a ferret expert. Not every vet keeps up on the latest info on things, especially ferrets. Add in that ferrets research and knowledge is changing and advancing soo quickly! It would be hard to keep up even for a ferret-expert vet. I know tons of people read things online and believe the first thing they see. So I can understand where they are coming from. But seriously, some of us do our research and deserve to be acknowledged.
Like I always want to tell her stuff about raw diet, and Des implants and other things, but I don't want her to get that "don't believe everything you read" attitude either. haha She is a great vet I don't want to urine her off.
I don't know how much sense I made lol or if it will be of any help, but that's all I really know as of right now. I am in the learning process too. *sigh*
Here is a PM convo maddy and I had. I would like some input on my conjectures. As I said, I was basically just going off of the limited info I know, and my Bio background, but without knowing the exact mechanisms and hormones involved. *needs to do some research*
Bold is Maddy and normal text is me. I removed some of the less-relevent-to-this-thread text but it is still a novel sorry.
We seem to be in the same boat... I am just soooo distraught over this! Idk for sure, but MegaWeasel is showing some possible signs. He was fat and fluffy all summer and actually shed his coat in fall when everyone else got theirs. I know some people say this could be due to mixed up seasons since he was born in the fall rather than the spring. I got him in Jan of 2010, so I think he is about a year and 4 months.
Koda is roughly the same age, and as I bought him in mid Dec would have been born around the same time as MegaWeasel. His seasons are not reversed. I know it does not happen to all winter babies, but just as a comparison...
Anyway, what are YOUR personal thoughts on adrenal preventatives?
Jennifer (Mustelidmusk) is the best person to talk to about adrenal. She has done it all and put TONS of time into research. Here is what I have learned and experienced so far...
Melatonin - used to treat symptoms. Can be given orally, or as an implant. The implants tend to be better as the oral meds must be given twice a day on time exactly.
Lupron - Preventative lupron is a 4-month shot administered between Jan-early March. The idea is to prevent the seasonal hormone spike come late winter and protect the adrenal gland a bit. Treatment lupron can be given in 3-4 month, or 1 month shots and I guess depends on your area. Here it is one-monthly. The first shot takes about 3-4 weeks to kick in. Koda got his exactly two weeks ago. The mounting behavior stopped, then came back but overall is greatly toned down. The itching/shedding is new as of last week. Not sure if this would have happened (possibly worse) without the shot, if the shot made it worse (doubtful), or if the shot is just not working, OR just that it was going to happen anyways and the shot just has not kicked in yet. Regardless, I know I still have 2 weeks before the max time it could take for the shot to kick in, but I am still Not Impressed.
Deslorein implants - from everything I have read this is the best option. It seems to be the most effective, and the most cost effective. It is a small implant given once every 6 months. Here is a great PDF on it that Heather Green - Merlin's mommy - gave me.
www.safa.com.au/media/file/newsletters/2010-05-may.pdf
I am trying to order the des implants, but I have not heard back from my vet on a price yet.
Anyway! I asked him his opinion on adrenal preventatives such as the des implant and he said he believes that there is no such thing as an adrenal preventative, and that the lupron or des will only MASK the symptoms while the tumor still grows. He said that he thinks you are medicating/treating something that isn't there.
Ok so on this and the words of the other vet. This is true. Sadly.
I want to do some more research into this though because as a Bio major I find it a bit contradicting. Here is why - I am fuzzy with the details so bear with me. lolThe adrenal gland produces hormones to compensate for the lack of gonads, however it is not really made to be the sole supplier of these hormones. Because there are no gonads to produce the hormones and provide a negative feedback to turn off the adrenal gland, it continues to overproduce hormones. After doing this for too long, it begins to become diseased. The cells get all funky (yes that's the technical term
rofl ok not really), and then eventually they begin to seriously malfunction and become cancerous. So when breeding season comes along, the adrenal glad kicks into high gear. As breeding season finishes, it keeps producing the hormones but tones it down just a teeny bit I think. Could be it tones down in some ferrets and less in others and the ones it does not tone down get adrenal younger. Either way, it does not know when to turn off, and with no gonads for negative feedback can't know to turn off.The idea behind preventative Lupron is, by the impression I have been given, to prevent the seasonal hormone spike in the first place by providing a negative feedback via hormone injection. I am not sure of the exact hormone in Lupron and how it works in the ferret's body, but I would like to find out. Then I could have a clearer picture.
After school this summer I might do a little more in depth research. Earlier if I have time.Treatment Lupron/Des you are just battling the already spiked hormone levels. Not knowing the mechanisms in details, all I can guess at this point in time is that already being in such high gear, you can't turn the gland off at this point - it is already on. So you just have to try to counteract the effects of the hormone levels by counterbalancing with other hormones. The adrenal glad meanwhile continues to become diseased. Hence the masking of the symptoms, but not the curing/prevention of the disease.
Lupron is given, then has to be given again after a month or 4 depending on the shot. I can see how des might be more effective simply because as a 6 month slow release implant, the des-hormones are staying pretty stable as opposed to say a monthly Lupron shot where you get the initial spike of Lupron-hormones, then it fades by the end of the month, then peaks and fades. Please keep in mind this is all educated conjecture on my part. I am going off of my knowledge of basic physiology and biology, but a very limited knowledge of the exact interactions, hormones, and mechanisms both of the disease and the treatments. Based off of my science background and what I have read/been told about adrenal and treatments this is the best I can figure.
What would make MORE sense to me is that if the preventative Lupron can supposedly (I don't think they really know) stop the adrenal from overproducing when given before the seasonal hormone spike, then it should be able to turn it off after the spike too. Maybe a higher dose is in order. In theory, a drug that blocks the production of hormones (this could have other side effects), or creates a negative feedback for the adrenal gland strong enough to be comparable to what the gonads would produce, should be able to Prevent the disease, and keep the gland from becoming diseased. If one stopped giving the hormone drugs though, then the adrenal overproduction would resume and we'd be back at square one. That makes sense to me. And perhaps that IS how it works, and why it seems to only mask the symptoms because when stopped, the problem returns.
That also does not explain the fact that the land still continues to become diseased in many, many ferrets even with ongoing treatment.That is my take on it given the info and impressions I have been given.
Anyway, emailed and asked them about their opinion on adrenal preventative using the des implant and they told me that the recommend season lupron shots given somewhere from Jan thru March and that the des implant looked promising, but wasn't available to US practitioners (which according to people here is false, so I think I will call them about that later today).
First off, the reason Lupron is "given" in those times is as preventative Lupron because you really want to give it BEFORE the seasonal hormone spike. Treatment Lupron for a ferret who is already adrenal should be continued monthly. And for a period of at LEAST 3-4 months. If the behavior and other symptoms improves, then the monthly shots should be continued.
And Des is absolutely available to US vets. However, it is manufactured in Australia and thus must be imported. There are import fees, and the vet needs a certain license to get them. At least according to my vet. Perhaps your vet does not have the license...
Also, as was recommended to me by Heather (Merlin's Mommy) is that it might be worth looking into having your vet get the implants from another vet nearby in the US who already has the implants. It might (or may not) be less expensive and may be a way around the permit and importation fees issue. I don't know...I am just wary about telling vets that I am on a ferret forum bc I don't want the 'you can't believe everything you read online' or 'well are they licensed vets' or whatever...idk if that makes sense?
I feel the SAME exact way. Yes I VERY strongly respect their knowledge and training. As someone going into the med field I know that they DO know a LOT (well...most of them) and had to work hard as h*ll to get there. They have had intensive training and education in the field. They are experts. However, not every vet is a ferret expert. Not every vet keeps up on the latest info on things, especially ferrets. Add in that ferrets research and knowledge is changing and advancing soo quickly! It would be hard to keep up even for a ferret-expert vet. I know tons of people read things online and believe the first thing they see. So I can understand where they are coming from. But seriously, some of us do our research and deserve to be acknowledged.
Like I always want to tell her stuff about raw diet, and Des implants and other things, but I don't want her to get that "don't believe everything you read" attitude either. haha She is a great vet I don't want to urine her off.I don't know how much sense I made lol or if it will be of any help, but that's all I really know as of right now. I am in the learning process too. *sigh*
