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Post by kpaz on Jan 11, 2012 12:17:12 GMT -5
They haven't showed any signs of insulinoma, I don't think. Goomba drags his back legs when he's waking up, but once he gets to the edge of the bed they work fine. I figure he's just stretching them out a bit. He doesn't vocalize except when he's sleeping. He often makes this loud, long whimper...it always makes me wonder if he's having a nightmare
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Post by katt on Jan 11, 2012 12:37:18 GMT -5
Okay so mostly inhalant-allergens. At elast it's not food that we know of yet. The teeth grinding is usually indicitive of pain, often stomach pain - hence why it is often thought to suggest ulcers. other sources of pain can cause it too. Have you tried perhaps a different vet for a second opinion? Ulcers are not conatgious unless they are beign caused by an infection of some sort (usually bacterial) in which case the bacteria would be contagious. Ulcers can be dues to stress and many other things. Hopefully the diet change will help, it's possible the food they are on doesn't agree with their stomachs...?
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Post by katt on Jan 11, 2012 12:38:55 GMT -5
They haven't showed any signs of insulinoma, I don't think. Goomba drags his back legs when he's waking up, but once he gets to the edge of the bed they work fine. I figure he's just stretching them out a bit. He doesn't vocalize except when he's sleeping. He often makes this loud, long whimper...it always makes me wonder if he's having a nightmare lol That's normal behavior. ;D Ferrets need a good stretch to wake up. Kenai drags his legs like that too. Kenai also has nightmares and talks in his sleep. You said Goomba is your special boy right? Kenai is mine... interesting...
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Post by kpaz on Jan 11, 2012 14:46:35 GMT -5
Sooo, it was a bit of a disaster. My blender started smoking half way through...so I just whisked and mashed it best I could afterward. Also, it took forever to thaw everything because I wasn't quite sure what I was doing last night and everything was stuck together. Now I have everything sorted in tubs and separated with wax paper, so hopefully I won't have that problem again. Livers are awful and smell bad. Other than that, I didn't mind handling any of the food. I weighed the ferrets prior to feeding them, but feeding....well that didn't go so well. Pippin went first. All of them snarled at the spoon. Pippin immediately tried to run away, so we scruff n stuffed but he wasn't much of a fan. He ate what we put in his mouth, but he definitely didn't enjoy it. He willingly took the kibble coated with it, but them spit it out when he tasted the soup on it. Next was Ellie. She's always been most compliant with humans, and although we had to scruff n stuff her too, she ate it reluctantly. A couple times she was making this weird noise, like she was vocalizing and chewing and grinding her teeth at the same time. It was strange...She didn't seem to like it at all, but every time we asked her to and cooed at her she would try a little more. Eventually she refused to try anymore, but I think hers went best. Goomba, poor thing, was a disaster. He's always the pickiest, and as soon as it got near him he was flipping out. I rubbed it on his gums and he was opening his mouth and pushing his tongue out. When I finally got some of it in he started gagging and writhing, and continued to gag anytime it was near him I'm not sure what to do now. I mixed it in with their food, with a little island of food peaking out the top. Ellie took a piece off the top and ran away with it, but the other two won't go near it. What should I do next?
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Post by kpaz on Jan 11, 2012 17:36:48 GMT -5
The food is still in there. How long can I leave it in there before throwing it out? Also, should I try feeding again? I don't think they've eaten anything. Should I give them more kibble?
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Post by katt on Jan 12, 2012 1:21:14 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but that's hilarious! ;D I wanted to reply at work earlier but the manager was around a lot bc the other receptionist called in sick. Anyways, don't give up just yet. Their reactions aren't as unusual as you might think. Do you have a different blender that you could use? This will be difficult without a blender. For tonight give them their kibble back. Tomorrow try taking all food away for a few hours - watch them all closely for any signs of spacing out, lethargy, or anything you feel is majorly out of the norm. I think your crew are all young to have insulinoma, and they are on a decent kibble mix too so you shouldn't have problems I'm thinking. IF you notice anything you are seriously concerned about, give them some food. That disclaimer out of the way, they should be fine. A healthy ferret can go several hours without food with no problems, it's just when there's insulinoma or developing insulinoma that you have a problem. SO.... Take the food (all food) away for a few hours before feeding time. NO MORE THAN 2-3 HOURS BEFORE FEEDING. Maybe take out the food in the am, and have a feeding session after letting them play for a bit. Try hand feeding more soupies. Do you have any ferretone, fish or olive oil, or similar treat that they are big fans of? If so, mix some of that into the soup, and make the soup a little more liquidy. How thick was today's soup? Did you add kibble when you were blending it and if so what was the rough kibble:soup ratio? A few things.... 1) It can take time to get used to the flavors of liver and heart (I'll come back to this) 2) If you are trying to blend kibble into the soup, try putting some water in it and soaking it for a few min prior so it's soft and not so hard on the blender. 3) Adding in more kibble, more water (thinner soup), a little flavor enhancer (oil or ferretone), and a higher amount of chicken breast (so say more than 8oz per liver/heart) this will make it more palatable to them to begin with. Okay a note on the organs. Typically I do not start with a soup with organs in it already, but we had some incidences with people not following instructions (and not reporting back) and the ferrets were not getting proper balance. We are trying to avoid that by having organs in the soup to begin with as a standard. (That being said, some people have always used organs in the soup as a starter, just not me personally). It may make the very beginning more challenging, but it will make getting them to eat organs later less challenging. So it's a tradeoff. Don't worry, stick with it and they WILL eat it. It can take a while for them to realize that it's not toxic sludge and that no, you are not trying to poison them. Now, seeing how...violently they reacted to the organ-chicken soup (sorry, still enjoying the images of poor little Goomba thinking he was dying, it's very much like making kids eat their broccoli to start with roflmao)... For your next batch, try using twice the chicken meat. So still put organs in there, but instead of 1 liver and hearts to 8 ounces of chicken, use 1/2 liver and 1 chicken heart. Also blend in some kibble. Hand feed that (after removing the food for a little while - no more than 3 hours before feeding time) and try hand feeding that. Do exactly what you did the first time. Then mix a SMALL amount into their kibble so that all of the kibble is lightly coated, and give them that. Watch them and see what they think. If they absolutely won't touch it (reacted same as today), then give them a small bowl of kibble back before you go to bed. Otherwise, try to only feed them kibble coated in soup. It should not be thickly coated, just moistened enough to flavor all of the kibble. We'll add more soup and decrease the kibble. Now a note on meat's expiration....meat stays good a lot longer than you may thing. Soup is good for 4-6 hours (no more than 12), ground for about 6-12 hrs, chunks about 12-24, boned meats 24-36, and whole prey up to 48hrs. This is a GENERAL guideline. Usually meat will dry up before it spoils. Soup is of course a little different, but it still stays good for a while. A light coating on the kibble should be good for most of the day at least. You'll quickly learn to tell bad meat from good as we go along. Bad meat smells. ;D Also keep in mind that their bodies are built for raw diets, and their stomachs are very acidic. This kills most bacteria that go through. Their fast rate of digestion makes it hard for any bacteria or parasites to take hold before they are flushed out. ETA: as a clarification by "hand-feed" I mean with a finger in the soup and let them lick it off, and/or hand feeding soup-covered kibble. Spoon feeding comes after they start hand feeding. And don't tire them out too much. Try a little with one, and let him go while you work on another. Then after a few tries with each, come back in a little while and try again. Getting them to accept the taste of raw is the first big hurdle in the switch - and it IS a hurdle. This is where the patience, persistence, and dedication comes in.
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Post by katt on Jan 12, 2012 1:24:20 GMT -5
Also a note on my posts. I'll try to give you enough information to get you through the next day if I can't reply immediately. We're at a bit of a time difference, so on my work days I will try my best to check in on my lunch but I can't always get on, and it's hard to write full replies on my phone. On weekends and my days off I spend a pretty significant amount of time on the computer. lol I'm almost always on the computer late at night.
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Post by kpaz on Jan 12, 2012 12:57:39 GMT -5
I think the soup was just way too thick. It was more like pudding than soup. I bought a new blender, my mother was actually delighted to see the old one finally give out. I think the thickness of everything was why the blender was having trouble. I had put about a fourth of the mix as kibble. I froze an ice cube tray of the soup, so I'm going to dethaw a little and add a bit more chicken, kibble, and water and blend it again. I bet it's the livers that are scaring them; they sure scared me ;D It's good to know that it's normal for them to think I'm plotting their murders! I'll let you know how it goes today.
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Post by katt on Jan 12, 2012 15:11:27 GMT -5
Yeah a thick pudding usually comes later in the game, but not much you could do with a smoking blender! lol And yes, there will be many steps along the way where they'll feel convinced you're trying to kill them with toxic sludge. That's where it's so important for YOU to believe this is the right thing and be determined to get them there. Therer are a few landmark hurdles and getting them past the initial taste of raw is the first and biggest one. Then come getting them to accept the texture of chunks, then hearts/organs, then bones. Don't worry, they will get there. Let me know how today goes!
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Post by kpaz on Jan 12, 2012 15:21:47 GMT -5
Things went a little better this morning, I suppose. I weighed them all today and gave them a drop of ferretone on my finger to keep still, then switched and used the same finger but with soup. They all licked it off, so that's good. They're all about 15g less today, although I'm not sure if that is significant. I did add some more chicken, kibble, a lot more water, and a little bit of tone. I'm trying to switch them to oils but so far Ellie is the only one who accepts it every time, so I just played it safe. They still won't eat the coated food, so perhaps I used too much. I may take half out and mix in more plain kibble. Ellie took a single bite and gagged but got it down then left, Pippin took a single bite about half an hour later but then he left, and Goomba sniffed it and ran They're all very active and playful, even though they must be a little hungry from the last day and a half. I'll try to get them to lick the soup throughout the day, and give them some plain kibble tonight.
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Post by katt on Jan 12, 2012 16:20:50 GMT -5
If they are licking it off of your finger that's good. Keep grabbing them and hand feeding them as much as they will eat at a time today. You can try mixin more dry kibble into the soup-kibble mix but be sure to mix it well or they'll just pick around it. lol If they really aren't eating anything, give them a little bowl of dry kibble later this afternoon, but if you are at home and can do it keep trying to get them to eat as much soup as possible every few hours or so. Before bedtime feed them more soup too. If they start getting stressed out by it take it easy, but keep encouraging them to lick it off of your finger.
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Post by kpaz on Jan 12, 2012 20:51:04 GMT -5
They all licked a little throughout the day when I hand-fed, but their noses were still turned up, and at one point Goomba sprinted up my shoulder over my back and across the room (luckily I was sitting on the floor). Goomba won't eat from the food bowl, even after I washed it out, so I hand-fed him some kibble so he's at least eaten something today. Pippin won't take food from my hands, and didn't eat when I offered him normal kibble, but he may have just not been in the mood to eat. Ellie scarfed the kibble down. It's going to be a long switch I have to go to New Orleans tomorrow for most of the day so I'll try feeding some soup in the morning, try some soup-drizzled kibble, and have someone put a bowl of regular kibble out in the afternoon if they haven't eaten, then take it out a few hours later and I'll try more hand feeding in the evening.
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Post by katt on Jan 12, 2012 20:55:55 GMT -5
Hahaha Goomba's going to be a toughie I see! ;D Silly boy! He really reminds me of Kenai... Anyways, I'm willing to bet that he'll be the biggest pig of them all once he does switch...
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Post by kpaz on Jan 13, 2012 13:43:12 GMT -5
Good day so far! I weighed them today, same procedure as yesterday. Weighed them in their bucket, first let them lick tone/oil on my finger, then switched to the soup. Ellie went first and licked it off my finger, at first she was a little hesitant, but she did about five dips worth. Afterwards I offered her the little bowl of soup I was dipping my finger in and she drank from it! She drank probably a large spoonful's worth of it, and didn't stop until I pulled the bowl away Pippin licked it off my finger, but was still bearing his teeth and squinting his eyes really hard. I offered him the bowl and he avoided it, turning his head to either side and trying to back away, so we let him go. It took a little coercing to get Goomba to lick it off, I had to kind of stick my finger in his mouth for him to take the first lick. He licked it a few times, but was still doing the tongue thing and gagging now and then. When I picked him up and offered the bowl, he sniffed it, looked at me like it was the end of the world, looked back at the bowl and shoved it away with his paw. Ellie's definitely making the most progress, but they're all doing ok and they didn't lose any more weight. I poured a little in the food and mixed it in, hopefully they'll try it at least.
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Post by kpaz on Jan 13, 2012 13:44:18 GMT -5
Maybe Goomba and Kenai are long lost brothers ;D
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