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Post by shiftyferret on Sept 2, 2012 18:08:46 GMT -5
Okay... so now that it's settled and I'm getting my little girl in October( ), I'm starting to think about her long term care. I have NO intention of breeding her, but I do not want to increase her risk for adrenal if I can help it. I've had enough of that condition, thank you very much. I AM fortunate that my breeder is not stipulating a 'Must Spay by [date]'. In fact, my girl's breeder suggested keeping her intact until she's five years, then put her under for spaying. So as far as I know I have three options. Jill jab, V Hob, or DES. I understand all have their pros/cons. I do know this will be the more expensive route, since spaying would be one time and done... but again, I'm willing to put in a little when I can if it means I'll have a healthier longer lived little girl. I'm not familiar with the hormone shots, 'Jill jabs'. Though I've known OF them for a while. Are these okay to use as a long term preventative for prolonged heats? I read some where, very fleetingly, it was mentioned they're only good as a back up to get the jill out of estrus so she can be spayed. V Hob, well... I'd have to find one! And I've read they're not always the most effective either... I really don't want any oops litters. As much as I love my ferrets and kits are so adorable... I'm NOT set up to afford their proper care. And of course DES, that's a hot one right now. And while it seems great... I am more than a little hesitant as far as it's use for long term. Since it still seems to be in the trial stage. .... Any thoughts to weigh in here? Any kind of insight here is welcome. Even if it's pretty much confirming what I've read.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 18:18:02 GMT -5
Okay I have no personal experience with this, but this is my input thus far.
So from what I understand, females can come into heat several times a year, especially when they don't actually carry a litter. From my understanding, using a jill jab multiple times a year for several years isn't ideal (breeders, any input as to why?). So I think that is the least attractive of the options (just what the vibe I get).
The next is v hob. The surgery to do this is very difficult, and the tubes for the male can regrow, and then you'd have a pregnant jill on your hands. So you would probably have a difficult time finding one, and it *could* end up unsuccessful.
Now des. Not a ton of research on the long term effects of this, but other countries have been using it successfully for quite some time. It is a very attractive option. The larger implant is supposed to last for up to four years (releases same dosage as smaller implant, just time releases longer). I think I am going to use a combo of des + spay for my new jill. I am considering trying out the larger implant, and then spaying her once it wears off. Hopefully that isn't until she's 3 or later. If you look at it this way, ferrets normally get adrenal at around 2-3. They can usually live 2+ years with adrenal with no life quality compromise. So if you spay around 3 years of age, you would (following the same logic) probably start seeing adrenal symptoms by 5 or 6, and then would be able to treat it for at least 2+ years. So you are at the end of their lifespan already (8+ years old).
Also, late alters don't seem to get the same aggressive adrenal symptoms, and the disease seems to progress much more slowly. So you would likely be able to treat the adrenal for longer than you would for a farm ferrets, where the disease seems to progress much more rapidly.
Anyway, some breeders aren't comfortable with des, for your first plan should be ask you breeder, and see what she recommends.
Hope that helps!
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Post by shiftyferret on Sept 2, 2012 18:24:33 GMT -5
That follows what I have been able to read.
Actually... >.> The breeder did mention DES. I'm so in love with her. I'm the one that has some reservations about it... just because it's shiny and new here.
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Post by Sherry on Sept 2, 2012 18:59:59 GMT -5
Frankly since you have no interest in breeding(thank you for this, by the way ), I'd go with the DES if you are planning on keeping her intact. Jackie has already covered the downfalls to the other two methods quite well. One other thing to add about a V-hob. Even if his surgery was successful, from what I understand it's still not uncommon for a jill to come back into heat after a phantom pregnancy. Meaning either you'd need access to that V-hob regularly, or you'd have to resort to a jill jab.
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Post by shiftyferret on Sept 2, 2012 19:11:51 GMT -5
Oh no, I've seen the pitfalls in breeding. My parents bred ferrets when I was young. They did this because spaying wasn't much of an option back then in this area at least. I've seen the heartbreak involved, I've seen entire litters and sweet loving jills lost. As well as the horrors with jills nomming on babies and such. No thanks. I want a pet... I just want a long lived healthy pet.
I'll keep my 'kit-fixes' to FB and breeder posts! I'm still a staunch Adopt From Shelters girl.
It definitely does look like DES will be the way to go. I'll have a talk with my vet on the matter. I will see her tomorrow or tuesday.. my old man looks like he's crashing. He's got all the earmarks for insulinoma.
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Post by Sherry on Sept 2, 2012 19:15:26 GMT -5
Oh no Sorry to hear about your old guy. If you don't want to go raw with him, freeze dried raw will help stabilize him also. As will something like Epigen 90.
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Post by Heather on Sept 2, 2012 19:19:12 GMT -5
Congratulations.....you will have to post some pics of your wee one. A jill can come into season 3 or 4 times during the "season". My wee girlie looks like she's going to keep it to 3 (fingers are crossed her sister came in 4 times this year). Each time she has paid a visit to a v-hob (Bacchus is my v-hob), gone into a false...had her "airbabies" and been a very happy wee thing. My understanding is you can jill-jab but it's not the best way and it doesn't always work the first time, sometime her time isn't right with your jab timing. This means that you may have to give hormone shots more often than even the 3 or 4 times. It is a great emergency option but not something I would consider as a long term solution. The DES thing is still quite an unknown but they're learning and it's certainly worth consideration, especially considering you're not ever going to breed her. I noticed one of the statements made about the DES is it's never to be used on breed stock. The DES will prevent her from seasoning at all, which is doing what it's meant to do....chemical castration. ciao
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Post by shiftyferret on Sept 2, 2012 19:22:49 GMT -5
He's been on totally ferret for YEARS... I planned to go whole pray/raw when I got my new girl, and make it available to the boys if they wanted or not. However, I may be more aggressive with him. He seemed alright for the first week, but now he's definitely crashing. I can't say that is completely unexpected.
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Post by joan on Sept 2, 2012 19:23:32 GMT -5
What I recommend for buyers of my jill kits is that they allow the jill to go through a complete heat cycle before spaying her. She's taken out of heat with a jill jab and goes through a false pregnancy, then spayed about two weeks after she would have given birth if she'd actually been bred.
Thus far none of my ferrets have ever developed adrenal disease, including those who were spayed or neutered before sexual maturity. Ask Ann if any of the ferrets behind your jill, or their littermates, for at least 3 generations have developed adrenal disease. If not, then it's unlikely that your jill would carry the genetics to do so, either.
At this time, I will not approve the use of Deslorelin for any of my kits as a preventative to keep them from coming in rut/heat as I think there's a very real possibility that interfering with their normal development could have long term negative consequences for their health.
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Post by Heather on Sept 2, 2012 19:34:45 GMT -5
"At this time, I will not approve the use of Deslorelin for any of my kits as a preventative to keep them from coming in rut/heat as I think there's a very real possibility that interfering with their normal development could have long term negative consequences for their health." Joan.
This is the concern that my vet has about this. She feels that for adrenal it's a gift the rest she's going to reserve judgement until some study proves otherwise. I've spoken about it with her at length and she strongly discourages it's use. I know that in my contract with my ferret's breeder I'm not allowed to use it on any of of the kits from any litters that my UK crew produce. That's why the extra cost of importing a v-hob. One of the hobs from my first litter will become another v-hob
ciao
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2012 19:36:42 GMT -5
I just have to wonder, obviously spaying/neutering alters their normal development. It's an unnatural thing and in most ferrets, leads to adrenal disease. Can the consequences of deslorelin be any worse than adrenal disease?
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Post by miamiferret2 on Sept 2, 2012 20:01:45 GMT -5
He's been on totally ferret for YEARS... I planned to go whole pray/raw when I got my new girl, and make it available to the boys if they wanted or not. However, I may be more aggressive with him. He seemed alright for the first week, but now he's definitely crashing. I can't say that is completely unexpected. That'll do it. I call Totally Ferret "insulinoma in a bag"-- oh how i regret letting my old vet talk me into feeding that stuff about 15 yrs ago. Of course he was selling it in his office.
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Post by Heather on Sept 2, 2012 20:03:20 GMT -5
This is being the devils advocate because I'm fence sitting as far as personal opinion. I can see both sides and because of where I am, I'm opting to use DES only on my adrenal ferrets to treat adrenal disease and I won't use it as a preventative. I won't use it on any of "my" ferrets. Here's one that my vet mentioned.....and it's totally a possibility....what do you use if the DES doesn't prevent adrenal? We all know that once it starts, each drug has a limited effectiveness against the disease. What if you use the DES and like melatonin it turns out to be a false hope...you've just used up the biggest player in your arsenal against adrenal. I'm not saying it won't work, in fact I'm hoping I'm totally off on this one. I'm just saying we don't know. Lupron is not as effective as DES and that too was touted as a "adrenal preventer" Right now, we're jumping at just about anything to stop this disease but we've been caught out each time. I can remember when melatonin was thought to be "the" prevetative...then lupron...now DES. You'll have to pardon me that I'm getting a little sceptical. ciao
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Post by joan on Sept 2, 2012 20:06:10 GMT -5
I just have to wonder, obviously spaying/neutering alters their normal development. It's an unnatural thing and in most ferrets, leads to adrenal disease. Can the consequences of deslorelin be any worse than adrenal disease? It depends on when the altering is done. If done after they have gone through the last hormonal surge before they go into rut/heat, then it appears to be relatively safe without negative consequences to their long term health. IME, that only applies to those who don't have the genetics to develop adrenal disease, though. A study done in the Netherlands some years ago indicated that spayed/neutered ferrets developed adrenal disease roughly 3 years (+/- 6 months either way) after they were altered. It would be interesting to know if any of these ferrets had been allowed to go through a rut/before altering. AFAIK, this study did not include any ferrets free of the fancy color genetics.
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Post by Heather on Sept 2, 2012 20:19:54 GMT -5
That's one of the problems too.....there are so many what ifs. We know that adrenal is caused by spaying/altering but there are other variables as well....what if it's directly tied to the whole colour genetics too?? It would then stand to reason why the farm ferrets are getting adrenal younger and younger as it sets deeper into their whole genetic code. Perhaps, with fancies and dilutes the spay and alter is the trigger, that it's there anyway. It's a war with too many fronts. If we were doing statistical analysis there are too many variables. ciao
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