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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2013 1:43:26 GMT -5
I'll give it a try - maybe ground pork if I can get someone to grind it for me. Pogo is also the HARDEST one to switch to something new diet wise, so we'll try pork since he gets pork organs - maybe it will have a somewhat similar taste so he won't not eat it. When I get some I'll let you know how it goes.
On another note - I know we mentioned that they can stay on soup for up to 5/6months before they start becoming nutrient deficient, but I wanted to ask if there was anything I can do to help with their nutrition - like any vitamin mixes or something I can add to the food. I read your new thread on why it is important to balance a raw diet properly and I have been wondering on this myself when it comes to my boys. They have been taking a very long time to switch over so would it be better and safer for them if I add some of the nutrients they may be missing? After feeding Emmett and Gir the kibble that ultimately killed them it scares me to think that any new diet I feed my boys might harm them as well. Not that I think raw is bad, but rather that since I don't know exactly what I'm doing that I won't be doing it right and might harm them nutritionally. Do you add anything extra to your babies raw food, especially those still on soup?
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Post by Sherry on Jan 14, 2013 10:14:28 GMT -5
I believe the soup you've been using is the one with heart/liver/eggshell powder? If so, that's fine for longer than 6 months. The only added thing I could think of is getting and using human grade bone meal powder. That 2-6 month time frame is completely devoid of something like heart, or liver, or bone(eggshell/bonemeal). So once the others are eating plain meat slivers with just a bit of moisture, we are going to start upping the size, adding heart/liver, and in the interim you can sprinkle the meats with the eggshell/bonemeal until they get the jaw strength to crunch the actual bones
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2013 12:13:37 GMT -5
First - Yes, the soup I have been making is the one listed on the Mentoring Thread: 8oz meat, 2oz liver, 1oz heart, 1tbsp pumpkin, 1/2tsp bonemeal (water). I have been using bonemeal instead of eggshell as we don't really eat eggs in our home. As for the bonemeal - since my boys are eating mostly slivers to a small amount of soup, should I be sprinkling some bonemeal and pumpkin on their slivers or do I not need to worry about that for now?
Second - MY BOYS ARE BRATS!!! Again, I feel like I'm doing something wrong. I was SO EXCITED the day that they went from slivers on a plate with about half soup to 2/3 slivers in a bowl with 1/3 soup and actually ate it all! That was about 4 days ago. We had tried laying the slivers out on a plate and laying the soup on top, but because we were only using 1oz of soup or less it was really just a pile of slivers with a little mush value to them. After a day of this I decided to take the same amount of soup, warm it in a bowl, and toss the slivers in it to make it a kind of sliver-meaty chunky soup. At first this worked, now, they won't really eat it. We are getting enough in Bandit, but we have to essentially hand feed him in our laps to do so. Tak eats fairly well on his own, but he is still a grazer and takes about 3 hours a sitting to finish his meal (have you ever had a fert like this???). Pogo is still on soup only and still won't even finish that if it isn't warm enough or soupy enough for his Highness. As for Mischief, he was the first to take to the bowl-o-slivermush, but now he is the HARDEST to get to eat. Yesterday he only ate a total of 1.8oz of total meat (about 1oz sliver and 1.5oz soup between the two feedings). Today he isn't faring much better so far. I even tried laying the slivers back out on a plate for him and he still wanted nothing to do with them. As an FYI, Mischief has been eating a little over 3oz of total meat a day, so under 2 is a significant decrease. I even tried enticing them all with a small amount of pumpkin on top of their slivers, but it didn't work. What can I do to get them to eat? I offer them slivers thruout the day between the 2 feedings, but they won't eat them, and I haven't been giving them any extra soup so I KNOW they are hungry.
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Post by Sherry on Jan 15, 2013 13:38:44 GMT -5
Since they are still getting some nutrition, try waiting another day. They are being stubborn right now and protesting. It's coming to the point of "tough love". Also, make sure to leave the food where they can access it throughout the day. That way when they realize their temper isn't working, the food is right there
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2013 4:03:38 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but the past couple of days have been a blur and I haven't gotten any weights, but I will post those as soon as I can get Derrick to get them (I suck at taking weights - can't get them to sit still for me). But we did go in for a check-up today and Bandit and Mischief weighed the same they both did the last time they were in (for Bandit it was about 4 months ago, for Mischief about 1). Food check in for group: We are still doing slivers and soup, but for about 5 days now we have been giving 1.5oz of slivers to 1oz soup. The 1oz soup is just enough to coat the slivers. However, because they are becoming more picky, or protesting, I have been adding a little warm water to their mix if they start refusing their food. It makes it all a bit warmer (as the slivers are usually cold from the fridge) and it makes it all a bit 'soupier' so it SEEMS like they are actually getting some soup (teeheeheehee). I know I need to stop this but Mischief, and even Tak to some degree, have really been refusing their food to the point that they are consuming 1/3 or more less per sitting than they were a week ago. As for snacks between the 2 feedings, I put slivers out when they wake up, but nobody ever partakes of them. Pogo is still on soup. I completely forgot to get him some ground meat, but I wll do that in the next day or so job-permitting. (I'm really sorry but it has been a very long, eventful couple of days for me and I've had so much to do that I've forgotten a few things.) Food check-in for individuals: Bandit - He has been eating all or nearly all of his mix every feeding for the past couple of days We do typically have to hold him for the last bit of the slivers, but he doesn't require too much coaxing. He is eating on average about 3.6oz of meat a day between the slivers and soup (with about 2.8-3oz being from the slivers). His demeanor and lethargy are normal for him. He still pees a lot and his poops vary. Mischief - He has dropped from an average of 3.6oz of meat to about 2oz of meat in the past 5 days. He is becoming harder and harder to get to eat and he definitely prefers the soup, and he prefers his food to be warm. I don't think he has lost any weight, but he has been lazier. Tak - He is still a grazer and it takes him an hour or so to finish his food. He doesn't care what the temperature is, and the slivers don't seem to bother him too much. But he is also eating less here recently, at about 2oz of meat from about 3oz of meat daily. Pogo - He still refuses slivers and still prefers his soup to be warm. He is staying stable at about 2oz of meat a day. Poopies - For all of them their poops have been very soft lately and kinda blobish. Tak and Bandit drink water when they are thirsty, but I don't really even see Mischief or Pogo drink. But they all pee OK from what I can tell. They are all kinda sluggish lately, but some have their playful moments. So what should our next step be? Mischief is being VERY difficult, as is Pogo. Also, how much should 2lbs male ferrets be eating during this time of year? Is 2oz of meat a day enough, or should they be eating more? Bandit weighs about 3.5lbs and eats between 3.5 to 4oz daily. My other 3 boys are all between 2 and 2.5lbs.
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Post by Sherry on Jan 18, 2013 9:46:47 GMT -5
Appetites for ours have slowed down as well, so that's normal. For the interim, keep mixing in some warm water, that's fine. You'll also want to start sprinkling on some bone meal. Just a pinch per meal. Something else you should do. Start slivering up heart and adding a piece or two to get them used to the taste. Keep slowly reducing the soup until the slivers are mixed with just a tbsp or so of warm water. If you remember you can also take the meat out of the fridge 30-60 minutes ahead of meals to let them warm up a bit.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2013 2:02:53 GMT -5
So the boys (all of them now, to include Pogo) have slowed down with their food consumption, both slivers and soup. I know this happens but they are slowing WAY down, as in less than 2oz of meat a day down. Because of this, my BF decided on his own for the 2 days he was responsible for them (due to our schedules) that he was going to start feeding them 3 times a day again AND he upped their soup amount back to half soup/half slivers. I could kill him sometimes. But, they have eaten a pinch more because of this method (both in soup and slivers). Anywho, I feel like we are going stagnant again so I want to try moving on to chunks. I doubt you will get this before I get a chance to look at it again, but tomorrow I plan on making the chunks rather small, like the size of my fingernail small. Will this be OK? I'm still going to mix in a bit of soup and some warm water, but not half and half like my BF did. Let me know your thoughts and how you feel I should proceed with this. Also, should I keep it at 3 feedings a day or move it back to 2?
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Post by Sherry on Jan 23, 2013 9:21:08 GMT -5
How is their energy levels? In the morning at least, it should be picking up a bit. If not, then you may have to up it to three. Something that may work is to do the half and half, but thin the soup a bit more. So, use the half slivers(try making them just as thin, but longer if you can) and 3/4 the amount of soup you normally use but add a bit more water to it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2013 13:59:52 GMT -5
I guess you could say their energy levels are where they have been for a while:
Bandit - He has never been very active due to his "illness", so when he does play a bit it excites me. I will say though that he doesn't seem to be having as many 'bad days' here lately, and I wonder if it is the food.
Pogo - In the winter he is VERY lethargic (he has been this way every winter) and hardly comes out to eat and potty much less play. However, he has been playing a little more this past week or so, but that still doesn't say much for him.
Mischief - He usually has one really good play session a day. He was a bit more active when we first adopted him in Aug. but since the others are sleeping a lot he kinda just does the same. But the odd thing about him is that he hasn't blown his coat or really gone into winter mode. But he is SUPER SUPER itchy and has been for about a month or so now.
Tak - Tak is so new to the clan that it is hard to know his baseline yet (we've had him for about 2 months now). He is the youngest of our crew (20 months-ish) so he is up and about a good bit of the day, and he is very playful, but doesn't have anyone to play with so he just gets into trouble. I play with him as much as I can but he is still biting A LOT so I ignore him when he does, which cuts into his playtime with me.
As for morning activity, I suppose it has picked up a tiny little bit, but it can be VERY hard to wake them up sometimes.
Food wise - I am still trying to reduce the amount of soup and I am making up for the 'wetness' by adding the warm water. This morning I did 1.1oz tiny chunks to .75oz soup and a little warm water. It didn't go over any better than the slivers though. Bandit is going strong and will move on easily I think. Tak is still grazing, but he doesn't really care about the shape of the meat. But Mischief is still being difficult and won't eat much at all per sitting. Pogo is eating around all the tiny little chunks/slivers I give him EVERY TIME. I've tried the 'scruff and stuff' method and he REFUSES to open his mouth, when I can actually keep a hold of him. He is also still gagging when I try to get him to eat a piece of meat.
As for the slivers vs. chunks. I should have mentioned this last night but I was tired. I wanted to try tiny chunks because I've noticed that the boys aren't liking the length of the slivers. They will pick a sliver up and shake it then spit it out and then won't touch it if it is too long (and I don't make my slivers that long, maybe an inch). I was thinking that maybe if they just got an actual small piece of meat in their mouth they would be more likely to eat it. This morning this kind-of worked. I didn't see them picking out the chunks and placing them beside the bowl nearly as much as I did with the slivers.
Do you think doing chunks over slivers would be the best route right now or visa versa?
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Post by Sherry on Jan 23, 2013 14:05:40 GMT -5
Hey- if that's what they'll take go for it! It varies by ferret. The idea behind the long skinny pieces was to teach them to chew. Which your boys are refusing to do. But- if you've got one you think will move faster, try it. That may prompt the others to try it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2013 14:13:19 GMT -5
Yes, it does seem that they are refusing to chew If they eat enough for me today over the 3 feedings I am going to slowly start upping the size of the chunks every day. They all ate over 2oz yesterday, which is an improvement. Is it OK though if they eat less than 2oz a day for a while? They all weight over 2lbs (Pogo 2.3lbs, Tak and Mischief 2.5lbs, and Bandit at 3.5lbs - I am going to get my BF to get exact weights tonight).
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Post by Sherry on Jan 23, 2013 18:25:48 GMT -5
As long as they don't have a consistent weight drop, and personalities don't change much it's fine
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2013 3:16:45 GMT -5
So my BF sux at doing things I ask - he hasn't gotten the boy's weights yet. HOWEVER, he did at least get Mischief's and he said that he weighs the same he did a couple of weeks ago (somewhere here in the thread in a recent post). So that's good at least. That being said, I was starting to become really concerned about Mischief so I tried just giving him plain soup (not much, only an ounce or so) just to see if he would eat it. I did this because - he doesn't wake up easily, he sleeps a lot, and he has consistently been eating less than 2oz a day for most days for the past week and a half. Of course the brat ate it all, so he has just been holding out on me. But here is the problem - he has been holding out for almost 2 weeks so how do I proceed here? The only thing I can figure (and this goes for ALL of the boys, Pogo included) is to get tough again and start really pushing small chunks with very little soup and waiting them out. We pushed thru the slivers pretty quickly with this method so I'm hoping it will work for us again. Is this an OK way to proceed?
Also, on a side note, I've been wondering about my boys getting proper nutrition. They have been on straight soup (except the slivers over the past few weeks) since mid to late September (excluding Tak who has been on it since late November). With a couple of my boys being already sick they can't afford issues with nutritional deficiencies as well. Is this a concern, something I should be worried about? It seems that this process is going to take longer than I'd like, so is there anything I can do to get all the proper nutrients and vitamins in them in the interim? Also, I have been putting tiny pinches of bonemeal in their food since their stools have become very loose, is there anything else I can do to help firm up their poopies?
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Post by Sherry on Jan 25, 2013 10:17:39 GMT -5
Looks like you are going to have to use the "tough love" method with them. And to ensure proper nutrition since they ARE so stubborn, are you willing to do a heart/liver soup once or twice a week? You will likely have to hand feed this. Mixing in 1/2 tsp heavy cream per ferret will help. For stools sprinkle on a bit more bone meal.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2013 13:40:49 GMT -5
I am down with the liver/heart soup (though I'm sure the boys won't be ). I bought some extra heart and liver yesterday so I could sliver some in their mix too, so I'll use the extra for a soup. I'll give this a whirl and let you know how it all goes!!!
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