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Post by maddy on Mar 9, 2011 15:43:34 GMT -5
Hey guys! It has been a long time since I have been on the forum, just unfortunately a lot going on with school and life, but the weasels are all well! I will hopefully be getting more active bc everything seems to be settling down.
Anyway, I am taking MegaWeasel for his annual on Fri morn and want to ask my vet about possible adrenal preventatives. He is 1 year and 4 months old. I know a little about deslorin and suprelorin or however they are spelled, but no much. I really do not think that my vet will know much more, bc he isn't exactly on the up and up about that kind of stuff, but I know if I were to ask about it, he would look into for me. So, what I am basically asking (Jennifer, I know you know a lot in this field) is what I should try given the age and what seems to be working. I have 3 other ferrets that are also a year or less.
Another question... I have decided to not get rabies, but what about distemper? I know a lot has been going on with that and hope someone can give me some insight.
All in all I really just need some good questions to ask my vet, and any good or promising preventatives in adrenal to mention. Thanks for any help!!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2011 15:52:50 GMT -5
I think, if you can get the des. implant, I'd get it if you're interested in prevention. However, be aware that it might become less effective if and when he does get adrenal disease. I'm not sure ferrets have shown any resistance to the des. implant, but it is very similar to lupron and a ferret will become resistance to that. Just to be aware.
I just posted this, but I'll repost here.
This is my take on the vaccination issue. This is a personal decision and should not be blindly followed. Definitely do your own research.
The temp distemper vaccination probably didn't have any effect for immunity - the maternal antibodies most likely cancelled out any effects it oculd have had. Because of this, most farm breeders recommend getting two more distemper shots, to make sure that the maternal anitobodies have worn off. I believe this is 1) a waste of cash and 2) increased risk for reactions, etc.
By the time your baby is 4-6 months old (probably closer to 6 than 4) all of the maternal antibodies are mostly likely gone. That is, IMO, the best time to vaccinate. Why overvaccinate if it's not necessary?
Most advocate yearly vaccination - this is highly unfounded. Several here on this forum have seen with their own eyes that the immunity lasts for several years, if not the life of the ferret. So please consider reading up on the issue. Most vaccines are only approved for 1 year because the clinical studies and trials were only followed for that long - not because the saw a decrease in immunity after that time.
Titers are available to test antibody levels. If antibody levels are high, you baby is most likely protected.If they are low, don't fret. There are several other defenses in the immune system besides antibody specific immunity.
On the rabies vaccine, consider if it is necessary. Will you be traveling out of the country or between states? Will you be attending shows? Rabies is ONLY transmitted from the bite of a RABID animal - the chances of this are slim to none.
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Post by Heather on Mar 9, 2011 16:14:42 GMT -5
One thing to consider about the rabies vacc is there is a rabies trial in process right now, Dr Dodd's study. You can look it up if you like on line. It is a public funded study they rely entirely on donations to keep the study alive. The manufacturers and the vet business don't want this study to succeed...think about this on a manufacturer's level and you will understand why it's public funded through donations. They have presently proven that the rabies vaccine (and there is only one, it's a 3 yrs proven coverage) covers up to I believe 7 yrs. which truthfully is the life of your ferret. Once your fuzz hits 7 yrs there should never be another vaccine in it's life, distemper or otherwise (personally I just don't but that's a lot of research and soul searching, not something one does on a whim). Many on board here never go past the first series (which covers more than aptly)
ciao
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2011 16:17:18 GMT -5
Thanks for that Heather! I remember reading about that somewhere, but I could not remember for the life of me. One day, I hope studies like this uncover that vaccines last MUCH longer than originally thought, and people will begin to second guess the "vaccine yearly" mentality.
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Post by joclyn on Mar 9, 2011 22:05:48 GMT -5
i think some people are getting the deslorelin (aka suprelorin) before symptoms appear hoping that it will prevent the onset of the disease. i've no idea if it's done anything though - really seems to be too soon to know. i know there is a study going on about the effects of the des on active adrenal disease - i do not think that study encompasses any research as to its possible preventative properties.
as for rabies shots, some areas it's mandatory for ferrets and other places it isn't. you need to check - city/town ordinances, county ordanances as well as state. here in pennsy, the state doesn't require it for ferrets (cats & dogs yes). in the county i live in, it IS required for ferrets...so, i have to get it. also, i show, and it's a requirement for the shows, so, another reason i do it.
if you don't get it and it's a requirement where you live and your ferret bites someone, you risk losing your ferret!!! some places still have mandatory kill & test rather than doing quarantines to see if rabies is present - and even quarrantines aren't good...you won't be able to see your ferret for months and it'll literally be kept by itself in a room and will have no interaction with anyone...not the way a ferret should live. i HIGHLY recommend getting the rabies shot if it's required in your area!!
with the distemper, they get the initial shot at the age where the mother's protection has worn off. the mother's protection wears off within a couple weeks of them being weaned...so, first shot should be given at 8 weeks old. although similar to canines, they are different and canines keep mothers protection a bit longer.
then two more shots are needed to provide proper protection and those need to be given in 2-3 week intervals. after that, a yearly booster (on the anniversary of the 3rd shot of the inital series) should be done - this is given to make sure they ARE fully protected. there are cases where they do not get full protection even when the initial series has been given properly. so, that year booster is important!!
after that, you can do titers (yearly) to see if the coverage level is at a point that they are protected and do another booster if it's needed - or wait another year and test again.
ooooh, jackie! 
your post really hit a nerve here 
distemper KILLS!! there is NO fda approved cure for it!! it's proven fact that the series of 3 shots given at 8 weeks, 10-11 weeks and 12-13 weeks is necessary to provide a base of protection...and that doesn't always occur even when the shots are given on schedule - thus the booster at a year.
this was proven fact, via testing for fda approval, long before i experienced what i have.
i have this very proof of the facts sitting in my living room! all mine are in the mongo titer study so, i know their titers and it's clear from the titers just how well the series of 3 shots with and without yearly boosters provides good coverage and also how good coverage doesn't occur when the series of 3 shots aren't given timely!
boo got his shots 'pretty much' on schedule - was a little on the late side; finola got them right spot-on schedule. and they both got booster for 2 years. first titer their numbers were well above the benchmark. boo was hundreds over and finola 1300 over.
winston and duncan - dmk's i took in via a shelter in new england - STILL do not have proper coverage, years later. i was told they had been given shots, so, when i got them, just did one shot; thinking it was the third of the series. titers the following year proved they didn't get anything at the shelter (i never did get the paperwork from the shelter nor an answer as to whether they'd been given any distemper shots - which they WERE supposed to get). and subsequent years they still have numbers that are below the benchmark, so, they've gotten boosters every year. we'll see how it goes this year.
noodle & pixie - my refugees from a florida shelter - i got them shots straight off. pixie was barely 8 months old when she came here and noodle was about 1 1/2. shelter op said they'd had their shots from previous owner and she didn't do any while they were with her. the following year titers showed noodle was just above bench and pixie below. so, she'd had nothing other than the initial shot and noodle had had at least 2 of the initial series. really wish i'd known pixie hadn't had anything, i'd have done another shot for her even tho she was almost a year old at that point. she still didn't hit above the bench last year...so, had to do the shot again. hopefully this year she'll be at an okay level.
oberon got his series of 3 a little on the late side of the schedule - still within the basic timeframes, though. i titered him before the time for his one-year booster and his level was 119 - perfectly fine and, if i didn't have a contract stating i had to do the booster, i wouldn't have. his titer subsequently has been a little higher than that.
chauncey, grizel & taco came to me as a result of an spca seizure (horder situation). interim shelters didn't vaccinate and there was no information available, so, they got shots when they arrived here. following year, titers showed they didn't need that booster - all are hundreds above the benchmark (so, previous owners did right by them and it was just the 'shelter' person who was providing improper care).
for the body to build up coverage, the shots need to be given properly on schedule and at the right age for that to occur. if they don't get the initial series properly, it's not recommended to do it at a later age - basically you give shots yearly and hope that they eventually build up coverage. i'm seeing that that is a rough road, too 
distemper kills and it's a nasty, nasty, nasty death...i've not seen it firsthand - i have seen pics and video though when jenny had the outbreak - thanks to the idiots at the county shelters there in florida! they knew they had distemper in their facilities (yes, plural) for at least 6 months, if not longer, and didn't close the doors!! idiots!! she lost 6 of her kids - both personals and shelter kids.
messing with the distemper shots series is just NOT something ya wanna do!!
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Post by Sherry on Mar 9, 2011 22:10:12 GMT -5
Actually, they've been finding out the mother's protection frequently doesn't wear off til around 4-5 months of age. Which means any vaccine given prior to that point has no real effect at all.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2011 11:17:15 GMT -5
as for rabies shots, some areas it's mandatory for ferrets and other places it isn't. you need to check - city/town ordinances, county ordanances as well as state. here in pennsy, the state doesn't require it for ferrets (cats & dogs yes). in the county i live in, it IS required for ferrets...so, i have to get it. also, i show, and it's a requirement for the shows, so, another reason i do it. if you don't get it and it's a requirement where you live and your ferret bites someone, you risk losing your ferret!!! some places still have mandatory kill & test rather than doing quarantines to see if rabies is present - and even quarrantines aren't good...you won't be able to see your ferret for months and it'll literally be kept by itself in a room and will have no interaction with anyone...not the way a ferret should live. i HIGHLY recommend getting the rabies shot if it's required in your area!! Just because something is mandatory, doesn't mean that people should blindly follow it. I understand that some people need to vaccinate to travel, etc. But to vaccinate for rabies yearly is honestly doing more harm than good. The rabies vaccinate is most likely effective for the life of the pet, or at least the majority of it. Deciding whether to vaccinate for rabies or not is a personal choice. I choose not to. I don't travel, my ferrets don't bite people, and my vet has agreed that, if it came to it, he would sign a waiver stating my ferrets are not well enough to get the vaccinate due to risk of a reaction. with the distemper, they get the initial shot at the age where the mother's protection has worn off. the mother's protection wears off within a couple weeks of them being weaned...so, first shot should be given at 8 weeks old. although similar to canines, they are different and canines keep mothers protection a bit longer. The initial shot is given FAR too young for the maternal antibodies to have worn off. The initial distemper shot is given before the babies are even shipped, which is usually between 6-7 weeks. Maybe earlier. then two more shots are needed to provide proper protection and those need to be given in 2-3 week intervals. after that, a yearly booster (on the anniversary of the 3rd shot of the inital series) should be done - this is given to make sure they ARE fully protected. there are cases where they do not get full protection even when the initial series has been given properly. so, that year booster is important!! The reason for the two more shots is because no one truly knows when the maternal antibodies wear off, and it varies from ferret to ferret. The two shots are supposed to cover it no matter what. The reason some ferrets aren't fully protected is because the shots were likely given too early. The most shots you give, the less responsive the immune system will be to future vaccinations and infections. ooooh, jackie!  your post really hit a nerve here  What did I say that hit a nerve? Those are my opinions on the matter, and I never once tried to convince anyone to adopt them. distemper KILLS!! there is NO fda approved cure for it!! it's proven fact that the series of 3 shots given at 8 weeks, 10-11 weeks and 12-13 weeks is necessary to provide a base of protection...and that doesn't always occur even when the shots are given on schedule - thus the booster at a year. this was proven fact, via testing for fda approval, long before i experienced what i have. Agreed, distemper is one dangerous virus. There is no evidence that a ferret given a single shot at 6 months is less protected than a kit who received the initial shot series. The booster is given to "remind" the immune system of the virus, which is entirely unnecessary. A single shot will take care of that. No need to continually assault the immune system. It just weakens it. i have this very proof of the facts sitting in my living room! all mine are in the mongo titer study so, i know their titers and it's clear from the titers just how well the series of 3 shots with and without yearly boosters provides good coverage and also how good coverage doesn't occur when the series of 3 shots aren't given timely! boo got his shots 'pretty much' on schedule - was a little on the late side; finola got them right spot-on schedule. and they both got booster for 2 years. first titer their numbers were well above the benchmark. boo was hundreds over and finola 1300 over. I think you are missing a crucial piece of understanding in what titers measure and how the immune system works. There are two components of the immune system, the innate and the adaptive. The innate immune system is non-specific and will recognize and respond to most invasions in a general way. This includes macrophages, neutrpphils, natural killer cells, etc. These are the first line of defense in the immune system. Then you have the adaptive immune system, which develops in response to a specific attack. The antibodies are tailored to the specific attack on the animal. A titer will measure the ANTIBODIES present in the animal. This does not provide a complete pucture of immunity. Just because a titer is low, does not mean the animal isn't protected. A titer will only be high if the animal has recently be exposed to the virus (that include vaccines). A titer does NOT take into account the several other forms of defense in an animal. So, a low titer does NOT mean the animal isn't protected. It is just one way to gauge antibodies. Of course your kids titers were high, they are vaccinated yearly. for the body to build up coverage, the shots need to be given properly on schedule and at the right age for that to occur. if they don't get the initial series properly, it's not recommended to do it at a later age - basically you give shots yearly and hope that they eventually build up coverage. i'm seeing that that is a rough road, too  This is simply not true. The body does NOT need the constant assault of shots to build immunity. distemper kills and it's a nasty, nasty, nasty death...i've not seen it firsthand - i have seen pics and video though when jenny had the outbreak - thanks to the idiots at the county shelters there in florida! they knew they had distemper in their facilities (yes, plural) for at least 6 months, if not longer, and didn't close the doors!! idiots!! she lost 6 of her kids - both personals and shelter kids.
messing with the distemper shots series is just NOT something ya wanna do!! I agree that distemper is terrible. I live in FL, I've seen how it affects an animal. Nevertheless, I feel confidant in a single vaccination for all of my pets. |
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Post by joan on Mar 10, 2011 15:05:20 GMT -5
Excellent posts, Jackie and Heather...your info is right on!
There is plenty of evidence that kit vaccinations are given too early and too often, with a negative impact on the immune system...more is NOT better. One distemper shot, given after the kit's immune system is fully mature and the maternal immunity has dissipated, is all that is necessary to protect the ferret for the rest of its life.
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Post by maddy on Mar 10, 2011 21:46:50 GMT -5
Ok, well my issues really aren't on distemper and rabies as much as an adrenal preventative. So, if anyone knows anymore about it, please let me know. I AM NOT getting the rabies shot. Yes, it is required in my area, but no one outside of the family handles the ferrets and lets face it...if a rabid animal ever did get a hold of one of the ferrets (which it wont) they would most likely not survive anyway. If for some reason they had to be kept by someone outside the family, then I would get them a rabies shot. My vet understands where I am coming from and understands why I do not want them to get it. I will prob get distemper bc I just really don't want to risk the disease... I just didn't know if the distemper even worked anymore since they quit making the ferret vac. Again, anymore input on adrenal preventative would be great! Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2011 21:51:35 GMT -5
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Post by maddy on Mar 10, 2011 21:56:57 GMT -5
Thanks! I just don't know what to do... I mean if it works then GREAT! But I'm afraid that if they get it later, they will be immune and nothing will work! Decisions decisions...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2011 22:00:32 GMT -5
That is always a chance. How old is Megaweasel?
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Post by maddy on Mar 10, 2011 22:19:34 GMT -5
1 yr 4 months, the others are all under a yr and Badger is idk...4?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2011 9:51:29 GMT -5
I have not had time to read most of this thread, so apologies if I repeat some things....
Caveat - I m NO expert here, but here is my understanding....
While the mother's immunity may be sufficient to mitigate the risk of distemper until the first booster is given, there are some hidden, critical risks as follows:
1. Once the Distemper baby series (3 shots) has been started, you must continue the baby series if you want to "ensure" coverage. The reason why a series of three is given is because it's not when the mom's FULL immunities are passed in the milk. Th reason why the 3 shots are required is becuae shots that are given early can weaken or cancel the immunity from the mother and/or the earlier shots within the series. (You may be able to test titres instead of continuing the baby series - I expect that you could test at least two weeks after the shot has been given - this is simply a GUESS in my part...its something you would need to dicuss with a holistic vet)
2. If you get a ferret from a private breeder who is willing to NOT start the baby series, you also NEED to make sure that the babies have recieved colostrum and has been nursed from its biological mom. Some ferret moms donot produce milk, so the babies may be added to a litter with babies of a similar age. If this is the case, the baby most likely will not receive colostrum for its biological mom. ALso, the passing of immunites may differ from mom to mom. (the bby may not recieve a fiull complement of immunities geared toward its inhereted genetics.
MOST OF THE TIME (at least in the US) a baby ferret will have received its first distemper shot BEFORE you get him. Ferret breeders, both large and small usually start the series.
If anybody can add, clarify, or correct this info, please jump in.
(I will read the post on Des. and respond accordingly later (working all the time)
-jennifer
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2011 22:58:31 GMT -5
In my last post about the rabies baby series, the ferret may not be very well "protected" by the baby series, which is why the first annual booster is recommended. Anyway the two posts in previous a previous post i this thread provide pretty good insight into state of the art adrenal diseease prevention. Adrenal activity will start up in all ferrets that have been neutered. Who rapidly the glands become diseased, how rapidly a neoplasm may grow, etc will depend on a handful of factors, including genetics and photo period. The preventive treatments tend to slow the development of the disease rather than prevent it all together. Regarding prevention, it's really unknown if the ferret develops immunity to the drugs or if the amount of diseased tissue simply grows enough to function beyond control of the meds. That being said, many people believe that when the meds stop working, the glands have developed cancer. This is not necessarily true as has been demonstrated by my girls' surgeries. In the end, it's all feels like a "crap shot" since we still have a lot to learn about prevention and treatment. I am currently of the the opinion that prevention with deslorelin is the way to go. However, I could be proven wrong please let me know i you have any questions on the referenced articles. I can try to answer them, although I am not an expert....I just read everything I can get my hands on  -jennifer |
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