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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2012 23:28:34 GMT -5
ferretdes.proboards.comCreated by breeder Nancy of Ferrettown USA. Here she documents her experience with using deslorelin as a chemical castration.
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Post by Heather on Apr 7, 2012 2:27:28 GMT -5
Thanks Jackie ciao
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2012 3:40:52 GMT -5
Very useful, considering when I get a hob, I plan to use DES for that very reason, and as well as the fact, she's the breeder I'm hoping to get a hob from!
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Post by Heather on Apr 7, 2012 10:53:25 GMT -5
It's always good to keep a good working contact with the breeder of your ferrets or any animals for that matter. They provide direction and support for the life of your wee ones ciao
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Post by miamiferret2 on Apr 7, 2012 13:16:49 GMT -5
Here is the thing, i know this was discussed before on this forum. The point that was made by one of the breeders here really sank in for me. i am using it for prevention of adrenal. I have a marshall farms ferret, i.e., doomed to be adrenal. Im using deslo bc i feel like i have to try and prevent it. Im a bit worn out with adrenal in MF ferrets and i feel like i need a break. But, if you shell out $ for a ferret from a private breeder, maybe neutering with des is not such a great idea. Because if there is a genetic predisposition to adrenal, the deslo implant will not allow this to be revealed. IMO, better to surgically neuter after 18 months. Keep them on a good natural diet and in as natural lighting as possible. if your breeder ferret develops adrenal, hopefully your breeder will be responsible enough not to breed his/her parents again if there seems to be a pattern going on. that is one of the incentives of buying from a private breeder. Or it SHOULD be anyway. if something goes wrong with your Path Valley Farms or Marshall Farms ferret, good luck getting a hold of someone or trying to get any answers. You have a better chance of seeing Jesus than you will of getting anywhere with a commercial breeder!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2012 15:28:51 GMT -5
I have wondered about that myself. I am currently using Deslorelin, but I may stop and neuter somewhere down the line. I may, in a year or so, be in a position to attempt breeding and keep them intact (if I decided I want to try it, and if it is in this case possible to breed after des.)
I still feel it has a great use though, in getting through those initial 18 months, couple of years, however long you choose to leave it. For the hobs, simply because alls you have to do is read Mikey's thread on Finn to see how difficult it could be to keep them completely intact through a season or two for some people, and for the jills because obviously they need *something* to bring them out of heat. For me, a v-hob wasn't an option - I didn't know where to begin looking and she came to me in heat so I had to act fast. I'm also unsure of putting her through the ordeal when she was new to me. And v-hobs always carry a risk of a botched job, from what I've heard. There's the jill jab, but discussing des vs the jill jab with my vet, he seemed to think Des to bring her out for 18 months would have less of a detrimental effect than the jab, and there isn't the risk of her coming back in to heat later in the season.
What I have wondered is, if you use des once or twice at the start, and then neuter, if they do develop adrenal after neutering can des still be used to treat it for a time? I would assume that if there has been a decent break between the initial use and the onset, it could..
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Post by Heather on Apr 21, 2012 16:07:36 GMT -5
There you have part of the problem...nobody really knows. There are so many unanswered questions using the DES, hence the reason for pooling our knowledge on Nancy's site. -if it indeed only stalls the time that adrenal shows up, what are you going to use instead? -does it postpone the symptoms to such a degree there is no time to save the ferret if it goes adrenal (hides the symptoms) -if you use this to chemically castrate, can you breed jill/hob without issue--what about fertility issues, in horses and dogs it's been known to screw up cycles, create lower sperm counts, possibly smaller litters and structure (none of these are proven they're only observations but they're there, it could be the individuals involved but no one really knows for sure -is there long term consequences when using DES on breeding stock -can it create genetic issues if used on breed stock -the question you have, if you use it to get through the first couple of seasons or even the first season, can you use the DES to hold off the onslaught of adrenal if it occurs later All these questions and more aren't answered. This is a new use for this drug that wasn't created for ferrets (very few are ) Testing is limited if at all. Basically, you the ferret public are guinea pigs. Your little ones are test subjects. For adrenal ferrets it's a godsend. It's a short term product that has little side effects that offers hope where none exists. Let's face it, the diagnosis of adrenal is fatal....long term prognosis is basically unimportant as any time bought by this drug is a gift for the ferret. As far as using it on breeding stock, to stave off farm ferrets from getting adrenal, using it to allow you to get through a ferrets first couple of seasons and then alter....no one really knows. There are a lot of theories but no one can answer your questions definitely. ciao
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Post by miamiferret2 on Apr 21, 2012 17:40:27 GMT -5
I'm using it on a Marshall farms ferret for prevention. He is about 2 years old now (i implanted him at 5 months). So I am part of the "study" I will have to visit the deslo forum. I have been lazy.
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Post by Heather on Apr 21, 2012 18:58:31 GMT -5
Not lazy. I too, like to think we've found the ultimate solution. I've seen so many of them come and go. Each time it's going to cure or prevent....I so hope that this time it's the answer, but like you....I'm so scared it's not. I don't want to think that we're on another wild goose chase. The only way we can move forward is to risk our own little ones, because no one will test the drugs that will help them. You're doing what you can to protect Sonny, same as each and everyone of us are trying to do....but like the rest of us, you don't want to find out that in the end it was for not and that the vets and the scientists have once again let us down. Lets hope that this time, we've scored the right drug for our little ones, like you I can't bear the thought that once again we've just found something that will "just do" for a short time. Come on board when you can, it's not a busy forum, but we're slowly accumulating information...maybe this time we will win ciao
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nanjferret
New member
Ferrets are people too!
Posts: 94
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Post by nanjferret on Apr 23, 2012 17:08:43 GMT -5
To answer some of the questions coming up here on why I have chosen to use the Des sometimes. First, I have lines going back many years. I keep all of my ex breeders for their lifespan and always do posts when they pass. I have had one adrenal older ferret from a line that was not re bred from years ago. That is it. I am not using the Des to mask adrenal. I know my lines. Second, I am not using the Des on any ferret I intend to breed in the future. Not enough is known about how this would affect subsequent breedings and litters. The theory right now points towards any time a ferret is fixed it disrupts their adrenal function among other processes. That is why I'm choosing to try this approach, for the overall health of the ferret. Many times over the years I've been told you can't do something and I've learned sometimes you just have to take that leap. One was a common belief you could not raise a kit before 3 weeks old by hand feeding, I've done it from 3 days old. Des has been used and studied extensively by the researchers for adrenal. They know what it does and doesn't do and how. Would I use something that had not been tested so much already , no. It's also been used for chemical castration in other countries. I am taking that leap to help figure out if it is a better option for total health. I am not the only breeder using it btw. You just won't hear about it from them. What I'm not doing and never will is inject Lupron into a breeder ferret in the spring just to get better muscle and coat for the shows. If I thought in any way the Des would harm I would never use it as well. Did you know that continuous use of Lupron will cause excessive bleeding if the ferret has to have surgery? It melts the tissue where the stitches won't hold. Des doesnt do this. Ferrets were not meant to be altered but maybe if we can find a good solution to the disruption of their basic metabolic functions we can still have those wonderful creatures as pets without the excessive smell and such and still keep them healthy.
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Post by Heather on Apr 23, 2012 19:41:26 GMT -5
I hadn't really thought of using it "to mask" adrenal from others as a means of subterfuge, more a concern of it masking adrenal from the ferrant so that they might not catch the signals until it's too late. Of course as a breeder that could bring in a totally different connotation and an entirely different responsibility....I hadn't thought of it in that manner Nancy....the original question was....can you use DES to keep a ferret intact for the first couple of years of it's life and then alter it and still reap the benefits of keeping it intact? or does the ferret need to come into season to reap those benefits? and if you use DES and then alter and your ferret gets adrenal can you use the DES as a assisting remedy as we use it now, or does it loose it's therapeutic effect? I was not aware the lupron was used as a "enhancer" for show ferrets (we don't have shows up here and I've never attended any...yet ). Wouldn't that be counter-productive? and at worse terribly unhealthy and possibly bordering on unethical (ethical and showing doesn't necessarily go hand in hand but still ). Lupron isn't without its side-effects, we just find its effects are less devastating than the adrenal disease we're trying to counter Personally, after using the DES for adrenal I find that I have very little use for lupron which I've had fail a number of times. I realize that I've been lucky thus far with the DES in uses for ferrets with adrenal in that they've all responded positively but I've had by far more failures with lupron than successes. ciao
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Post by Sherry on Apr 23, 2012 19:41:39 GMT -5
That's interesting about the lupron nanjferret. Never realized that could happen!
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Post by miamiferret2 on Apr 23, 2012 20:31:15 GMT -5
I have heard that about lupron but i didnt know whether it was true or not. i cant believe they inject show ferrets with lupron just for SHOWS. That is so crazy.
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Post by miamiferret2 on Apr 23, 2012 20:35:29 GMT -5
I think Mikey said he was going to implant Finn. how old should an intact ferret be when you implant them?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 13:08:37 GMT -5
I think Mikey said he was going to implant Finn. how old should an intact ferret be when you implant them? Implanting Finn is not a done deal yet. I want to see if his 2nd year rut is calmer and more tolerable than this year (first rut). If his next rut is tolerable then he may not need to get implanted. It's a hard decision because I have to weigh his health vs. his happiness - He probably would be more at peace with the implant, not having those pesky urges, but staying as nature made him has to be healthier than having some chemical implanted, right? It's a tough choice, not one I feel like I'm ready to make just yet. It's a hard choice because the benefits of the implant are SO attractive. Less smell than a surgically neutered ferret... everyone would like him and not be grossed out by his smell! Virtually no chance of going adrenal, since he would still have his testes, so if there WAS any GnRH production that the implant didn't squash, the testes would respond to it and down-regulate it (feedback loop), which should protect the adrenal glands from over-stimulation and hypertrophy. The reason I hesitate is that I just love Finn's build. He's so hunky, and I can't help but think that he wouldn't be as hunky without having at least SOME testosterone in his system. Also, everybody talks about the negatives of having an intact hob, but as Heather has pointed out, being intact also affects their behavior in fun ways. Finn is more vocal, and always seems to have a purpose. My nephew was visiting last night, and he noticed that Finn didn't act like the other ferrets, he was noticing how Finn always seemed to be busy doing something - Either patrolling his territory, checking on the other ferrets, peeing a little bit in every one of the litterboxes all over the house, looking up at us for attention or whatever, etc. ;D From the beginning I planned on letting Finn go through his first rut without the implant, because supposedly that's the most healthy thing to do for their long-term health. The old rule of thumb was that the healthiest thing was to let them have 1 rut, then neuter them, and the implant is almost the same as neutering so I figured the same rule would apply. For my other 2 ferrets, the implant is a done deal, I just am hoping it will become more available here in the U.S. some time soon.
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