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Post by anna on May 17, 2012 20:14:37 GMT -5
I have to disagree- 15000 years is roughly 5000 generations, the equivalent of 75000 years ago in human evolution. Given the right set of circumstances, e.g. hanging out only near humans and eating their scraps as opposed to living in a pack and hunting fresh meat, 5000 generations are plenty of opportunities to select for a more forgiving gut flora. This is especially true when the mortality rate is as high as it is in nature and not overly tampered with by human beings as it is now. On the other hand, whether those specific gut-flora-loving mutations or other mutations favoring a more omnivorous diet were available to be selected FOR is anyone's guess, since the jury's still out on the appropriateness and ratio of non-meat foods in a dog's diet. But as breeders will tell you, once you find and isolate a trait, it can move in pretty fast. Not sure who left this soap box here, but I'm getting off it now. There's probably a line behind me.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2012 8:20:06 GMT -5
I've been offline this week because we've been moving, so I've missed most of this argument. Obviously any who feeds their dogs vegan wouldn't be breeding them anyway Says who? Sorry, I shouldn't have generalised here. Most vegans who are vegan from an animal welfare point of view, and all of those that I know are against breeding and buying pets because it means that an animal in a pound that could have been rehomed by them misses out, and in many pounds the animals only have a week to be rehomed before they are put down- whether healthy or not. You may have seen some of the bumpet stickers etc that say "don't breed or buy, while others die". I'm sure that health vegans would probably not mind, and obviously there will be some vegans with different views and circumstances, so I shouldn't have generalised. Those of you who have problems with particular pre-prepared vegan pet foods by specific companies (and I do agree with the vegan ferret food company- idiots), I'd just like to point out that just because these companies have little or no understanding of animal nutrition doesn't mean that all companies are the same, I'm sure you'd all agree that there are plenty of "natural pet food" companies that aren't vegan that produce totally unsuitable pet foods. I don't know much about pet nutrition, but I can say that I have seen several dogs that are THRIVING on a vegan diet, not just surviving, but their owners make their own food themselves, they don't buy any of the pre-prepared stuff, and I don't know exactly what they put in it, but they claim it's all 100% vegan. I also saw this posted on Facebook today by a friend: www.fruitnut.net/HTML/210_NonFiction_Animal_Brambles.htmIf she is fed a vegan diet like they claim, I think she's probably living proof that dogs can thrive on such a diet. I'm not saying that I support or advocate a vegan diet for dogs, I don't think I know enough about canine nutrition to take a side, but I'm just suggesting that maybe we shouldn't believe everything we are told about pet diets. This forum is proof that there are plenty of myths that exist about animal nutrition that most probably exist so greedy pet food companies can cash in, and not enough research is done into animal nutrition, so perhaps meat isn't as essential as we all believed. Again, please don't all jump on me at once. I'm not saying that vegan diets are right for dogs- I certainly wouldn't feed a dog, cat or ferret vegan diets, even though I choose to do so myself, as I think I'd rather go with something I know is safe, but I do think it's important to keep an open mind. If this dog has lived to be the worlds oldest dog on a vegan diet, then maybe some of the more knowledgable people on this forum might be able to find an explanation for it, and if we are all trying to feed our pets the most optimum diets, then this might be worth looking into?
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Post by Sherry on May 22, 2012 8:35:19 GMT -5
That sort of thing really makes me wonder what, how many, and how MUCH she is using supplements, vitamins, and minerals to add into the veg.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2012 10:50:41 GMT -5
They probably have to use a lot of supplements. It would be VERY hard to provide a dog with ALL of the nutrition it needs from vegan foods.
I am of the opinion, it can be done with dogs, but it is not something I would choose for my dog. I think given the choice a dog will prefer meat to veggies and supplements. I like the idea of giving your animal a diet that as closely resembles their natural diet as possible. I do not believe that dogs are obligate carnivores. The definition of an obligate carnivore is an animal that must obtain most, if not all, of their nutrition from meat sources. Dogs in the wild are known to eat the stomach contents of their prey. While they are carnivores, I see them more as opportunistic carnivores. They will take what they can find.
Felines and ferrets are different. If the majority of their diet does not consist of meat, they can become unhealthy. Too much plant matter can make them sick. Obligate carnivores also need a source of Taurine, which as far as I'm aware cannot be found in anything but animal tissue, namely the heart muscle.
I'm rehoming my dog at this time, but when I have dogs again (and I plan to have a small pack of them on the farm I'll have one day), I plan on feeding only raw with whole prey.
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Post by Sherry on May 22, 2012 18:24:42 GMT -5
I actually read what IMO is a really great term for dogs- carnivorous omnivores. They'll eat veg etc when they have to, but meat will be the first choice.
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Post by kpaz on May 22, 2012 18:42:58 GMT -5
If you don't include vegetable matter in a dog's diet could they get sick? Since if you were to feed a dog franken-prey they wouldn't get the stomach contents seen in herbivores or omnivores they would normally hunt.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2012 18:48:41 GMT -5
I think dogs do benefit from minimal veg material, specifically in the form of a fiber replacement that would normally be found in prey. I think their stools might suffer without it. I don't know much more from that.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2012 21:40:32 GMT -5
They don't get sick from veggies. But the key is, that it has to be in minced form (I do it in a food processor) otherwise it will just go through them and they can't get any nutritional value. There are raw feeders who don't feed veggies at all. I do.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2012 6:05:05 GMT -5
I think I saw someone post somewhere (maybe on this thread?) that they freeze and then unfreeze their dogs veggies before they get them to break down the cell walls, otherwise the dog can't digest them. Would it be accurate to say that dogs lack the proper digestive enzymes to break down plant matter, but with them added from an artifical source, they could digest them fine (would explain those dogs who are fed vegan perhaps?). Or can you not add enzymes like that?
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Post by Heather on May 23, 2012 12:29:30 GMT -5
I do that that, freeze the veggies and then let them thaw. It just breaks down the cell wall something dogs have difficulty doing. I suppose you could do it in that manner for vegan dog foods but vegetables are a fragile organism when it comes to heated temps. To make dog food they cook the food at a very high temp. You can also bet that they're not using prime wonderful veggies, it will be the stuff ready for the composter (they use 4 D meats...they're certainly not going to use fresh vegetables). So really, how much good is left in the veggies?? You're basically feeding the dog supplements and expecting him to survive on that....but then I guess that's what's done with kibbles to Vegetable matter though, is even more fragile to temperatures so I would think you're basically feeding fillers and supplements. Not a diet that an animal can thrive on, JMO of course ciao
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