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Post by kpaz on May 10, 2012 17:28:53 GMT -5
I've heard of the vegan diets for dogs too, which is really where this stemmed from (other than pet food commercials, but all of those just make me angry)...so after I heard of people feeding them a vegan diet I looked up canine skulls to compare their teeth with a ferret. That's when I noticed most of their teeth were ripping and shredding, but they do have molars. I know a girl who wants 2 great danes and is set on feeding them a vegan diet to "increase their life span" (not they have very long ones anyway ). I should probably mention she is also a vegan, although I don't know if that's really the reason why she would want to also feed her dog a meatless diet. From an evolutionary standpoint, maybe some domesticated dogs can process veggies a little better? I can look at a wolf and something like a dachshund and it weirds me out sometimes lol... there are probably breeds that have been domesticated much further than a wiener dog, so maybe they can tolerate raw plant material better than something that is more closely related to the wolf? That may be completely crazy talk; i'm not a geneticist or evolutionary scientist, just thinking aloud. The other reason I bring this up is because one day my boyfriend and I would like to get a dog (this is in like 10 years) and we were unsure of how to go about feeding dogs a more natural diet. There's got to be a forum somewhere for that, too. Maybe?
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Post by Sherry on May 10, 2012 17:34:29 GMT -5
Check out the skull of both wolves and dogs. Their dentition as well as the digestive system are identical.
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Post by Heather on May 10, 2012 20:11:51 GMT -5
There are many raw feeding forums for dogs, some are just friendlier than others ;D I've been feeding my dogs a natural (which is rmb diet) for over 15 yrs. I managed to get 13 yrs out of my gr pyrenees which has the average lifespan of about 8 yrs. At 12 he was still very active and was still occasionally working (he was a therapy dog). My vet at the time, was stunned as he had been diagnosed with spinal maelyopathy (sp?) at 11 and she had only given him about 6 months. He actually took veterans at a show and he set a good pace (he ran the ring). No, I would never dream of feeding a vegan diet much less a vegan kibble diet to a dog. ciao
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Post by katt on May 10, 2012 23:31:15 GMT -5
Obviously any who feeds their dogs vegan wouldn't be breeding them anyway Says who?
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2012 1:10:37 GMT -5
They're not obligate carnivores, they're opportunistic carnivores. Definitely not omnivores, though. They'll always eat meat when they can, but when it's not available, they can revert to eating berries, grass, etc. until they can find a meat source.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2012 1:13:59 GMT -5
I've heard of the vegan diets for dogs too, which is really where this stemmed from (other than pet food commercials, but all of those just make me angry)...so after I heard of people feeding them a vegan diet I looked up canine skulls to compare their teeth with a ferret. That's when I noticed most of their teeth were ripping and shredding, but they do have molars. I know a girl who wants 2 great danes and is set on feeding them a vegan diet to "increase their life span" (not they have very long ones anyway ). I should probably mention she is also a vegan, although I don't know if that's really the reason why she would want to also feed her dog a meatless diet. From an evolutionary standpoint, maybe some domesticated dogs can process veggies a little better? I can look at a wolf and something like a dachshund and it weirds me out sometimes lol... there are probably breeds that have been domesticated much further than a wiener dog, so maybe they can tolerate raw plant material better than something that is more closely related to the wolf? That may be completely crazy talk; i'm not a geneticist or evolutionary scientist, just thinking aloud. The other reason I bring this up is because one day my boyfriend and I would like to get a dog (this is in like 10 years) and we were unsure of how to go about feeding dogs a more natural diet. There's got to be a forum somewhere for that, too. Maybe? This grinds my gears. Dogs cannot thrive on a vegan diet. Survive, maybe, but not thrive. I've met a vegan pit bull. She looked worn down and had a lot of dandruff and her hair was falling out everywhere. My Pom, who is on EVO (future raw), is an athlete, always wants to play, and has a smooth, lustrous coat. I think it's Natural Balance that has the vegan kibble, and even though it has 18% protein (much lower than I would consider feeding, personally), it's indigestible protein. Basically a useless food. Nothing but fillers. I'm all for people being vegan or vegetarian. To each their own; but when people start forcing that lifestyle on an animal that NEEDS meat to thrive, that's when I have issues.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2012 14:56:51 GMT -5
From what I've read online, for the most part it is pretty much vegans and vegetarians who feed their dogs vegan diets as well....
It upsets me because granted, they're allowed to decide to eat what they want, but just because they think one way shouldn't mean they should force an an animal to change its natural way of living to accomodate their ideals. Morals and "Oh, the fluffy animals are too nice to eat" don't really work when applied to the natural diet of carnivores. If they respect animals enough not to eat them, then I wish that they'd please respect their own dog or cat enough to let them live a healthy life with a diet they can thrive on.
(I'll get off my soap box now!)
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2012 15:41:27 GMT -5
Yes or choose a true herbivore as a pet instead of trying to mold one from a dogs, cats, ferrets and so on. A few years ago I emailed a certain vegan pet food company and got very nasty unprofessional and uneducated emails in return from the owner CEO president WHOEVER. A couple ferrets were being fed vegan diets and died that year I heard about. Others were still alive but barely. It angered/s me this company sells vegan ferret food, dog and cat food too but no rabbit, guinea pig or actual "vegan" animal food. I threw facts at them and he did not get it calling me nasty names like "dirty meat eater" . He claimed they have a "sanctuary" where all animals are fed on vegan diets. He bragged about feeding wolves vegan the whole time and dodged my ferret questions. I asked how long they live in his care and he would not answer.
That stupid pasta based food is still being made.
Sent from my SCH-M828C using ProBoards
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Post by Heather on May 11, 2012 16:03:38 GMT -5
Oh, they will not listen to reason. Forget it and they're really rude as you've found out. A group of us a few years ago approached a small local company that manufactured vegan diets for carnivores. They have no care, believe me. They've found a marketing tool and they're making huge money so why would they want to stop. It's rather like the Pita shelters....with 97% kill rate There are people out there who do not want you to have wee ones as your companions and there are many devious routes they can take to not only earn your support but to get what they want. ciao
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2012 17:41:45 GMT -5
It's truly sad those poor animals they're the ones who suffer
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Post by anna on May 12, 2012 7:54:05 GMT -5
I worked for several years for an amazing company that made fresh raw homemade diets for dogs and cats. They even had a contract with a local zoo to feed their canid populations. Among other sources, they used Kymythy Schulz's book Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats, and it's a great resource. The basic premise there is to try to match as closely as possible what the animal evolved to eat. They advocate a mixture of raw meaty bones and a grain-free meatloaf mixture of gound meat, eggs, and seasonal vegetables. They also took into consideration the modern companion animal's predilection to food allergies, so did away with grains, yeast, and dairy since these are the top 3 non-meat-based food allergies in dogs and cats. My dogs did very well on this diet, although I have added small amounts of whole grains back in because mine don't seem to have this allergy and there are a lot of good nutrients there. Many vets have a hard time with raw diets for dogs and cats (and I assume ferrets) and my theory is that this stems from what little nutritional training they receive in vet school and after is sponsored by Eukanuba and Purina (at least in the States). Until the world comes up with an independent "companion animal nutritionist" degree program, I'll trust myself to do the research, and the above plan has not only the best empirical results but also the most scientific support (what little there is). My question for the people who put their omnivore species on a non-omnivore diet would be- why? Is it for philosophical/ethical/environmental reasons? These are all of course valid reasons to minimize use of animals as food, but in that case, I would also recommend a rabbit. If it is for nutritional reasons, I would be MOST interested in seeing that data.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2012 11:09:41 GMT -5
I believe we are dealing with a difference in the way we classify domestic canines here. Some see dogs as dietary carnivores while others (many vets) see them as omnivores.
While dogs do maintain the physical characteristics of a carnivore, they are facultative rather than obligate carnivores, and they can derive nutritional benefit from non-meat foods.
So, classification of domestic canines has been a long-standing debate for quite some time.
I think a LOT of this depends upon your definition of what a carnivore is.....Please note that Panda "Bears" fall into the taxonomic Order Carnivora, but they are classified as herbivores from a dietary perspective.
I think there are a LOT of ways to look at this simply because "carnivore" is a man-made term (artificial category) that has multiple interpretations. This argument can go either way - carnivore vs. omnivore.
-jennifer
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Post by anna on May 13, 2012 11:15:15 GMT -5
I think there are a LOT of ways to look at this simply because "carnivore" is a man-made term (artificial category) that has multiple interpretations. This argument can go either way - carnivore vs. omnivore. Exactly. Ask a cook and a gardener whether a tomato is a vegetable or a fruit, and you may get two different answers. I've read that metabolically speaking a dog has more "omnivore" markers than if you just look at the skeleton/dentition. My theory is that as dogs were domesticated, they had more access to non-prey food, and so nature selected for the dogs that could thrive on that diet. I also wonder if soft tissue "evolves" faster than skeletal DNA, which is why the omnivore trend is stronger in metabolic markers than the skeleton. But I think most people would agree that whatever else a dog is, it is not an herbivore.
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Post by Sherry on May 13, 2012 11:53:08 GMT -5
I also wonder if soft tissue "evolves" faster than skeletal DNA, which is why the omnivore trend is stronger in metabolic markers than the skeleton. Given that the digestive system is the same, and takes the same amount of time to process foods, as a wolf I'd have to say no.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2012 12:10:38 GMT -5
I 2nd Sherry. They've been domesticated about 15000 years ago. In evolution it's minimal. As Sherry said they digestive system is the same as wolves just as their skeleton/skull/set of teeth. I mean, those teeth were made to rip/tear meat and bones!! I love listening my dog crush bones
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