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Post by kpaz on May 9, 2012 18:04:06 GMT -5
Are dogs obligate carnivores? I know they're in Carnivora, but don't they have like three molars? I've never had a dog, so I don't know that much information, but I'm just curious. Most people I know tell me they're omnivores, but I thought they'd be carnivores like cats and ferrets since wolves don't spend their days hunting for clover fields.
Sorry if this is a really silly question.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2012 18:11:29 GMT -5
Nope, they're omnivores, so unlike ferrets and cats, they can eat vegetables too, and according to my vet, veg is actually more important in their diet than meat is. She said you can raise a dog on a completely healthy vegan diet, but it would be very hard to raise him/her on a totally meat based diet, as they can't process all the vitamins from meat properly or something. Someone on here will probably be able to tell you better though.
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Post by rebel135 on May 9, 2012 18:12:36 GMT -5
Dogs are carnivores but not obligates and not silly question
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Post by goingpostal on May 9, 2012 18:50:17 GMT -5
Dogs are carnivores but not strict ones, they can eat other stuff. They don't need veggies though, there are plenty of people who feed a raw diet with no fruits/veggies/grains, me included.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2012 19:03:24 GMT -5
I agree - dogs are carnivores, but not *obligate* carnivores.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2012 20:09:02 GMT -5
Looks like I must have got my wires crossed with my vet then.
If dogs are carnivores, but not obligate carnivores, does this mean they don't need meat at all to survive? I know several people (including 2 vets), who feed their dogs a 100% vegan diet, so there is no meat at all. And what's the technical difference between obligate carnivores and carnivores then?
Sorry for mis-information kpaz, just repeating what I had been told!
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2012 20:18:03 GMT -5
I don't think that they are obligate carnivores, but meat is rather important because their bodies don't absorb plant protien quite as well animal protein.... or at least that's what I've mostly read from my researching.
The way I see it is they have the digestive system of a carnivore. Sure, they can eat veggies and such (and in fact a bit is good for them), but for the most part they are designed to eat mostly if not all meat. It's a survive vs. thrive sort of thing in my eyes...
From what I've seen and read from the raw feeders, a prey based diet works very well with dogs, so long different organs, proteins, and such are given to insure variety... but that's how it is for all carnivores. From the pictures I've seen of raw versus kibble fed dogs, there is a tremendous different in coat quality, muscle, etc.
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Post by Sherry on May 9, 2012 21:46:58 GMT -5
Ferretprincess, an "obligate" carnivore can make absolutely no nutritional use of anything not meat. A "carnivore" can get some nutrition from veg. matter. I do feel sorry for those pups raised on a vegan diet. Sooner or later, they are going to suffer from organ collapse and malnutrition because they aren't getting what their bodies need. It's not an "if", but a "when"
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2012 21:57:05 GMT -5
Dogs need meat. 75 % is their diet should be meat. Vegan??? That's a new (at least to me)? I feed my dog raw diet as well. A lots of raw feeders don't use fruits/veggies but I do. He loves 'em so why not. But it goes into the food processor first and he only gets it 4 times a week and 1/4 cup. The reason for this, because their digestive tract is so short if you give it to them in whole form they won't be able to use any of the vitamins/nutrients. That's how wolves/wild dogs get it too. From the stomach of the prey animal.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2012 22:09:16 GMT -5
When I fed my dog a raw diet, I also included fruit/veg. I'm not saying all dogs are this sensitive, but my guy did not benefit completely with just meat/bone/organ; however, when I added in a small amount of fruit and veg smoothies into his diet, I saw the benefits that others said they saw, but I never did up until that point.
(and Ill add my: definitely carnivore, just not obligate, to the growing tally!)
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2012 22:46:59 GMT -5
"carnivore" has soooooo many different interpretations. A traditionally trained vet will most likely classify a dog as an omnivore. So....what is a carnivore? well, its kind of subjective since it's a man-made classification that can have different meanings within different contexts... Interesting reading: dietary: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivoreclassification: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivora-jennifer
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2012 3:59:47 GMT -5
Sherry- I was pretty suspicious when people told me they raised their dogs on a vegan diet, but having seen the evidence, I can't really disagree with. A good friend of mine has a dog is is 13 or 14 (I forget which), and has been fed a vegan only diet from the day he started eating kibble. He has absolutely no health problems, and still has a ridiculous amount of energy and manages to keep up with their year old dalmation, who has an insane amount of energy. I know other people who also claim to feed their dogs vegan diets and they all seem very healthy, with great coats and loads of energy. I don't know if I would personally raise any pets I had as vegan, (and definitely not ferrets!), but it does work. Maybe it's a case of starting them early, or switching them over gradually so their bodies can adjust to processing plant proteins in the same way it takes a human a while to adjust, but I've never actually enquired as to how they do it. There's quite a few brands of vegan dog food on the market, though everyone I know makes their own from scratch I think: www.veggiepets.com/shop/vegetarian-vegan-dog-food.htmlwww.vegetariandogs.com/www.vegandogfoods.com/I'm not going to pretend to know much about the science behind it, as I don't have a dog myself so I've never taken the time to look into it. I just have seen the evidence in several very healthy happy dogs and know it can work. Maybe someone could shed a little more light on how dogs process plant proteins?
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Post by Heather on May 10, 2012 12:56:14 GMT -5
Truthfully....I think that you're going to come up with issues. I can't believe that someone would try and make a carnivore (even if they're not obligate) a vegetarian....much less a vegan. Dogs cannot process veggie matter properly. It can be done. Look at the panda. It is a carnivore that eats a vegetarian diet. It has to eat 5 or 6 times what it would normally have to eat to maintain that diet. It has evolved eating that diet and there a huge number of health issues that are diet related that are problematic from it's reproductive cycle to it's immune system. Why would anyone force a dog, cat or ferret to eat a vegetable diet because they believe that no creature should eat meat. Soya protein does horrible things to our immune systems and that's the major protein in a lot of those diets, I don't want to think what it does to a dog, at least long term. A dog can and does exist on just about anything, it evolved doing so. Dogs lived off the scraps from our plates for years, kibble is a new thing (at least along the lines of evolution). Question though.....are we not trying to feed "optimally" instead of just "existing". Has anyone considered what would happen to the dog that reproduces on that stuff? It's just a thought. My dog gets vegetables. I throw some in the freezer for him (the cell walls need to be broken for him to process this). If I wanted a vegan pet I would get a rabbit. ciao
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2012 14:44:26 GMT -5
I agree. They are carnivores just not obligate carnivores. I feed my dog raw and he does get veggies and fruits. He loves fruits.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2012 16:14:51 GMT -5
Not saying I agree with it... just saying I've seen quite a few dogs fed on vegan diets for years with no health problems, and some ridiculously healthy, with a couple of them vets themselves. Obviously any who feeds their dogs vegan wouldn't be breeding them anyway, so I have no idea about the reproduction side of things. If I had a dog I don't know what I'd feed him/her, I'd have to do a lot of research. I think I'd probably go with meat though, vegan diets are still very new to pets, and I'd rather not risk it, and like lots of people mentioned, there's a difference between surviving and optimum health. Going back a few years, it was believed that humans couldn't exist on vegan diets though, so I'm sure in the next few years we'll see more research appear on pet diets, especially as holistic and raw diets are becoming more popular.
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