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Post by lorelei0922 on Mar 20, 2012 13:07:18 GMT -5
Hi guys... i am curious how everyone handles their jills and kits during the breeding season. I understand we each have our ways and reasons for doing what we do, and no ONE way can possibly be the ONLY way to go about it.... I just wanna open up a discussion where we might be able to share what OUR methods are and maybe pick up an idea or two along the way.
Here in the UK most of our "info" comes from the "old boys" the old gaurd type workers who have passed information down over the years to be garbled up and spit back out....
Most of them say to leave the jill completely alone except clean out and food and water from about a week till due date until the kits are climbing out of the nest on their own at 3+ weeks.... They say to do otherwise is to risk the almost certain death of your kits as the jill will get totally stressed out and feel threatened and canabilize or abandon them....
In my personal experience BOLLOCKS!!!!
I tried that our first year... and my jill freaked the heck out with me suddenly "abandoning" her... she finally refused to give birth in her box, she had two outside the box and ignored them, until i sat stroking her with my hand in her nest,where she delivered 12 lovely little kits, which she took care of fabulously and still lives with 2 of them now 4 yrs later.
She did throw a wobbly at me at around 10 days old.. suddenly she was biting and shoving me away... giving me a quite obvious hint that she didn't want me near... i stayed away except to clean out and left her to it until the kits were about 3 1/2 weeks old and she started sleeping on TOP of the nest box to get away from them... she was then happy to have my interest again.
The next year i tried something completely different. My jill came inside ( they live outside year round) to her nesting cage when she was about 2 weeks till delivery.... From that point on she was smothered in attention, hand feeding, cuddles, play time, every single whim tended to... BUT... she was also inundated with my scent and interference along with it... everything in her cage smelled of me.. including the bedding in her nest... The difference was amazing... she welcomed me into her nest ... taking my hand and dragging it in to see the kits ... didn't bother even getting up when i picked up a kit or poked through her nest... and raised quite happily 10 kits without a single loss... This is the method i have stuck with as it works for me..
i watch the nest via webcam and try to leave her to do what she needs to do with no interference unless i feel she needs it, at which point, because she has had me close and "interfering" on a regular basis... she doesn't freak out.
What do YOU do?
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Post by Heather on Mar 20, 2012 15:07:21 GMT -5
I think this is going to be interesting discussion. I've heard everything from leave well enough alone to total interference. I have a feeling that things might not be so black and white and the best game might be somewhere in between ciao
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Post by lorelei0922 on Mar 20, 2012 15:16:01 GMT -5
thats what i thought Heather... i am curious what others do..
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2012 15:34:22 GMT -5
I'm excited to read about this!
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Post by joan on Mar 20, 2012 17:43:09 GMT -5
All mine are kept in the house, so I have interaction with them several times a day as I switch groups, as well as playing with them while they're out in the house. I move the jill into my bedroom (where the rest of the ferrets aren't allowed) a couple weeks before she's due. If it's the first litter for the jill, I use newspaper in the litter box (instead of the pelleted litter) from the 39th day until the jill is through whelping, since the first kit is invariably born in the litter box.
I move the kit into the sleep sack if the jill doesn't do so and the jill follows it in if she's not in labor with the next one. She'll come out and whelp each succeeding one in front of the sleep sack, clean it off, and move it into the sleep sack, then stay with them until the next one is about to be born.
I've never had any problem with any jill born here objecting to me handling her kits until the 4th day, as that's when the protective instinct kicked in. After that, I have to distract her attention with a treat (usually goat milk/baby meat0 in order to get the sleep sack out to check/weigh the kits. I usually begin weaning at 3 weeks with a very small amount of goat milk/baby meat given individually a couple times a day...by that time, the jill could care less if I take the kits out of the cage so long as I keep them right next to it.
The exception to all that was Cybill last year, as she was a year and a half old when I imported her from the UK in November, 2010, and had had a litter the previous spring. She didn't have any problem with me reaching into the sleep sack to handle the kits, but put her teeth on my hand if I tried to withdraw it while holding a kit. So I didn't get a good look at the kits or weigh them until they were 6 days old. She was bred today, so it'll be interesting to see how she acts this year.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2012 23:39:21 GMT -5
Ii am no breeder at all but i would like to input I would think the jill would be better with handling the kits when she knows and bonds to the human. On the other hand,if the jill does not know you well,i would think she may be more hesitant and more likely to chomp. Just a thought from an american with marshall ferrets haha
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Post by lorelei0922 on Mar 21, 2012 1:12:53 GMT -5
Hey Joan, thanks for chiming in! while mine are outdoors all the time they are handled several times a day during clean out and then again when i go outside morning and evening for play time with mum ...
i can imagine perhaps the previous owner of your jill might have taken a more hands off approach? or perhaps is this your hybrid? Did i remember you had one imported?? i'll be interested in hearing what differences you find a year in your care as well as her now previous experience as a mum under your car might make.
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Post by crazylady on Mar 22, 2012 15:41:25 GMT -5
HI Well I am one of the old school I leave mum alone unless she interacts with me ( I have had a few who have given birth and carried there hour old kits out to show me and have placed them in my hand !) I simply act like nothings changed stick to routien and act like I dont know she is pregnant or dont know she has had kits ( even though I can hear them screaming for mum lol) I simply clean and feed and pick up mum and do the fast brush thing ( this gives me a chance to check teats ) once the kits are around 2 weeks I begin letting mom down to stretch her legs ( she usually climbs back into the cage quicker than I can clean it though lol) by 3 weeks she is glad to escape and welcomes me putting in the mush for those hungry mouths (she enjoys it too lol) after 3 weeks its plain sailing she looks forward to longer and longer breaks and I can get to work with her babies lol every jill is diffrent some are sensitive some really trusting age plays a big part too just my two pennies worth take care bye for now Bev
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Post by joan on Mar 22, 2012 17:26:43 GMT -5
i can imagine perhaps the previous owner of your jill might have taken a more hands off approach? or perhaps is this your hybrid? Did i remember you had one imported?? i'll be interested in hearing what differences you find a year in your care as well as her now previous experience as a mum under your car might make. From what their owner told me about what they were like when he brought them home, I don't think Cybill and her brother had been handled at all until he got them at 6 months old. They were kept outside, both by their breeder and their subsequent owner, until I got them. He did a fantastic job of socializing them, as they both have excellent temperaments and personalities. They were represented to their owner as "captive bred polecats for several generations", but are almost certainly hybrids at best...possibly high content hybrids, as they have the small, stocky polecat body. but not pure polecats as they both have the typical UK ferret head and eye placement. I have no doubts that the vast majority of the socalled UK polecats result from generations of feral ferrets, as all but a very few lack the skull structure and eye placement of true polecats.
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Post by crazylady on Mar 23, 2012 3:55:08 GMT -5
HI Very few uk polecats come from feral ferrets ( there are no coloneys of feral ferrets in england ) the only wild ferrets are true wild polecats and its against the law to catch or breed from these without a licence and you are not allowed to ship or have any domestic ferrets in contact with these prior to shipping ! the term Hybrid has sprung up a lot over the past ten years since the blackself appeared on the scene everyone is claiming oh its a hybrid why simple the word hybrid ups the price ! dark polecats have been around for years but that doesnt make them bred from wild stock what is a hybrid ? a hybrid is anything descended from wild blood so not only is your sable a hybrid so is your cinnamon your silver and even your dew! because somewhere way back in its line is the humble wild polecat ! I often laugh when I hear the words oh her mum is wild have you ever handled a wild polecat I have they are often brown/black fight like wild cats and will rip your throat out in a heart beat are they easy to breed nope they have difficulty concieving in stressful conditions ( such as being caged up ) they are more likely to eat there young and only in exceptional circumstances will a wild polecat let you handle them there kits are the same they are spitting h*ll cats even if you try and handle them at 2-2 1/2 weeks of age to calm down the wild they bred in domestication over a number of generations result a DOMESTICATED polecat who is also a HYBRID but nothing out of the ordinary lol its only a word that helps breeders make more money ! remember the true wild polecat is a protected species and on the endanged list if there were so many giving birth in breeders back yards as they state the government would be calling for a cull not a protection order lol take care bye for now Bev
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Post by joan on Mar 23, 2012 16:27:43 GMT -5
Here are some quotes from an interesting thread on the Captive Bred Reptile Forms, from someone who is clearly knowledgeable about polecats and hybrids: "in my opinion there are no 100% pure European polecats anywhere in the British Isles." He goes on to explain: "Ferrets have been domesticated for 2,000 years that we know of. During that time, ferrets have been used the length and breadth of the Uk for hunting. Until recently, when electronic locator collars were first utilized to reduce the instances of losing ferrets whilst hunting, untold amounts of ferrets have been left to roam the countryside. Ferrets still get lost regularly these days too. I have gone home from ferreting on many an occasion with more ferrets than when I set out in the morning, having discovered other people`s lost ferrets living in sections of the warrens along side the rabbits. So, if for at least 2000 years, ferrets have been living and breeding in the countryside, throughout the UK, whilst not forgetting that the population is also constantly being "topped up" through further losses during hunting (over 2000 years!) not to mention escapees (which incidentally ferrets are very good at) then it is not unreasonable but rather logical to assume that it is not unlikely that there is not a single animal alive in the countryside of this tiny island today that is 100% undiluted polecat." and goes on to say: "Many polecat "experts" have seen animals that I have owned in the past that I know for certain are at least 50% hutch bred ferret, and are unable to differentiate between them and "pure" polecats. Similarly, i have seen supposed "pure" polecats depicted in literature and in the flesh that are far less European polecat in both appearance and attitude than animals of my own that I know for sure (as I owned their dam which was albino!) are at least 50% hutch bred ferret." The entire thread can be read at this link: www.captivebredreptileforums.co.uk/other-pets-exotics/I didn't entirely agree with his list of differences between polecats and ferrets, so posted about what I had seen with a few of my 4 month old ferret kits some years previously.
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nanjferret
New member
Ferrets are people too!
Posts: 94
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Post by nanjferret on Mar 24, 2012 16:59:11 GMT -5
I am in the US and take a very hands on approach with the kits. All of my ferrets are housed inside in a special large room with play areas etc. I move the mom to be to a separate quiet room to a special birthing cage made from small space coated wire so the newborn kits can never squirm their way out of the cage. A low edge litter box, food and water dish (water dish not a bottle as the moms like to stay in the nest sack and I keep the water and food as close as possible) I have special large mom sacks that are like large boxes with a hole for a door and a cover that falls over the door. I also put in a piece of cloth as jills like to stuff the doorways to make the nest secure. I handle the moms every day. I help moms deliver watching and taking sacs off etc if needed as new moms sometimes get confused. I've held moms in my lap when they are delivering. I've helped get breach kits out and resuscitate if needed if they have been in the sac too long by warming the kit in warm water and rubbing their heart area until they take a breath. I always have a small tall sided pan with a cloth on a heating pad available if needed to keep the kits warm until mom is done birthing. When she is all done birthing I change the bedding, mark down what kits and sexes are there and any notes and wipe the cage clean putting all back into a clean environment. I clean the cage and litter every day and check the kits and mom for any problems such as mastitis or the kits not nursing, weighing them to ensure they are growing. Some moms get protective and some don't. It seems to be genetic as to how they act and take care of their kits, being like their moms were. Most moms are fine having me do all of this but I always respect the jill's decision and never blame her for being protective. She is just doing what is natural for her. When the kits get to around 5 weeks they and mom are moved to a large playpen with several litter boxes and lots of interactive toys and tunnels. I also hang a hammock up for mom to get into when she wants to get away for awhile. I've never had a mom canibalize her kits from doing all of this but have had it happen when a large pet dog was mistakenly allowed into the room with a first time mom right after birth. The moms do need to feel safe to settle down and take care of their kits. I also cover the entire cage with a sheet to create a cave effect.
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Post by Sherry on Mar 24, 2012 18:22:19 GMT -5
This is interesting reading! And Joan- could you possibly link the threads those quotes come from? There are so many there it would take forever trying to find them! Thanks
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Post by joan on Mar 24, 2012 19:41:41 GMT -5
Sherry, those quotes are all from the same thread...and I posted the link to it.
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Post by Sherry on Mar 24, 2012 23:49:38 GMT -5
Weird! All I'm getting is the exotics board. It says "other pets/exotics", with a whole bunch of threads. Maybe you have to be a member.
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