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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2012 18:10:34 GMT -5
Oh no, sounds like Shadow had quite the time scaring you half to death ;D It sounds like they have made great progress today! It looks like Shadow and Beanie have decided to swap places on who's going to be the "trouble-maker" though ;D Pooping less is definitely normal! More of the nutrients are being used, so there's less waste product The stools will be darker too than kibble stools (which always seem to come out a very light brown) so no worries there As for Beanie - because she IS eating willingly (just not as much as the others), I would say at this point don't force her to eat as much as the others (this might stress her out and cause her to not want to eat the soup all together). Rather than that, see if you can't get a couple more soup meals in during the day (like you said) and just feed her smaller amounts more often. Ferrets do have quite tiny stomachs, so they can only eat so much in one sitting. For tomorrow, take away the food longer to get Beanie a better appetite. Then after they eat raw soup, instead of replacing the kibble in the cage, put a couple plates of soup in their enclosure (in different places) and watch them to see if they will snack on it. Hopefully Bingo won't eat it all ;D but Beanie may just get hungry enough to go up to a plate and start eating on her own, if the kibble option isn't there. Once you have "visualized" them all eating off a plate on their own, you can probably replace the kibble all together with the raw soup, including overnight, but just always have fresh raw soup availible to them to eat. Do let me know before you remove the kibble entirely though Sounds like you are able to increase the thickness and chunkiness of the soup at quite a good pace If they take well to the thick version, feel free to try adding some "slivers" of meat in. These are about the size of a fingernail. Here's the meat "sizing" reference chart (I'll be referring to these sizes from now on): holisticferret60.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=switch&action=display&thread=4341Other than that, keep up the good work and let me know if you have any further questions!
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Post by gracefuzz on Feb 3, 2012 14:40:41 GMT -5
3 meat puree meals and 2 of those included turkey slithers and....No kibble all day today! AM: each had 2 cubes of meat puree no water added. Beanie took a long time to eat and needed a lot of encouragement.she seems to dislike the spoon so I've had to hand feed her..she licks food in the bowl but wont eat it.lazy moo.
left two cubes of defrosted meat puree (no water added) in the cage..1 hour later they were gone..I suspect Bingo ate it but I cant be sure. MIDDAY: defrosted 6 cubes of meat puree (no water added) and mixed in finely chopped slithers of turkey (about 1.5 oz) All of them ate quite a bit, Beanie ate a lot more than usual, but was handfed,took a long time and a lot of encouragement again. Lots of chewing going on once they figured out licking wasnt going to cut it. Bingo and Shadow start off with spoon then stick their heads in bowl and start nomming on their own. PM: 2 cubes of meat puree (no water added) and 2.5oz of turkey slithers (between all of them- ran out of soup cubes making more tomorrow) Fed Beanie by hand first-tried to get as much down her as possible. She ate quite a bit of the spoon, then went back to handfeeding. Shadow had a few mouthfuls- she nommed the biggest chunks of turkey.Got her little jaw working Bingo had a little bit but didnt seem interested- probably because of stuffing his face earlier!- but he did chew on a few bits.
Have put the leftovers in the cage and when thats gone I'll put kibble in overnight.Seems to be going well. They are peeing more and pooping less. poop's are darker than normal and seem a little looser but not runny or mucousy. Energy levels are good.But its freezing here so they haven't been up and about much. x
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2012 17:23:40 GMT -5
That is fantastic Sounds like they all did great today. The turkey slivers are definitely a HUGE step forward too! Just keep on Beanie like you are. She's just going to be one of those ferrets who requires extra encouragement and hand-feeding. If she doesnt like the spoon (perhaps the texture or taste of the metal is throwing her off a bit), just keep hand-feeding her. Or you could also try a plastic spoon instead and see if that works better. I have a feeling she will get easier as time goes on The peeing more is also completely normal. They are getting way more hydration because of the raw food. Kibble tends to dehydrate them, whereas raw hydrates them. The stools sound completely normal too For the next batch, you can probably make it even a little bit thicker yet, and leaves some more slivers/small chunks of meat in it too. Getting them "chewing" is important because it will take them a little while to build up their jaw strength so that they are able to eat bones. Keep up the good work
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Post by gracefuzz on Feb 4, 2012 6:23:31 GMT -5
Hey, I didnt make soup today- I just used my 'chopping attachment' on the processor to roughly chop the meat up into quite small bits with some larger chunks left in. I used 8 oz turkey meat, 2 oz liver and 1 oz heart and egg shell powder. About half of the mix I split into three bowls and left them to try eating on their own.The other half is in the fridge for later. They ate a bit on their own and everyone was chewing again. Then had to handfeed all of them to encourage them to eat a bit more. All eaten quite a good amount and what was left over is in their food bowl in the cage.I'll check on it in a few hours and if its gone I'll give them more and handfeed beanie again. I've used a cardboard box with holes in it as a feeding den- Bingo has been using it Beanie wont eat out of the bowl-its as if its not food unless I'm handing it to her? what can I do to encourage her to eat out of the bowl?Im certain she's not eating the meat I leave in the cage. I put a small dish of kibble in last night and about 3/4's of it was eaten. Thanks! x
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2012 12:31:05 GMT -5
Sounds great! How deep is the bowl you are using to feed them out of? Mine REFUSE to eat out of a bowl with any height of sides. They will only eat off of completely flat plates. I think it has something to do with their whiskers touching the sides and it feeling funny. Give a flat dish a try and let me know if that makes a difference! Does the minced turkey also include the crushed egg shell? This is important to keep them from getting diarrhea Staring to add a bit of pumpkin (if you've been able to get some) is also a good idea. No more than 1/2 tsp per ferret per day.
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Post by gracefuzz on Feb 5, 2012 12:02:40 GMT -5
Hey- Havent been able to find any pumpkin, but Im still adding egg shell powder to everything.no diarhea yet, just looser stools. This morning they had the same meat mix as before-Beanie ate the most! She had a heaped tablespoon and a half, and she was really chewing up some big bits.
Shadow and Bingo ate a little bit, but as soon as I put it in the cage they wolfed it down.Its snowing pretty bad here atm, so I've had to put kibble back in just incase I run out and cant get to the shops for more meat.
I've just chopped up 8oz turkey, 2oz liver and 1 oz heart again (with egg shell powder).Im going to hand feed Beanie and then leave the bowl in the cage for Shadow and take the kibble out again for a while. I've left the pieces a little larger this time.
Bingo has gone to the vets to be castrated so he wont be back until tomorrow evening. I'm just wondering-Is it ok that they are having so much liver? Now that they are onto eating meat should I be changing what I'm doing? xx
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2012 1:33:21 GMT -5
Yay Beanie! And Yay Shadow and Bingo for eating it on their own!!! If you cant find pumpkin, you can use other "squashs" or even squash baby food. Let me know if you have any luck. If not, there's a recipe for grinding up iceberg lettuce, freezing it to break dow the fibers, and using that in the place of pumpkin. I just find pumpkin/squash a lot less work so see if you can find that first! Looser stools are totally normal so as long as they dont turn liquid, don't even worry about them. My ferrets had the WORST stools when switching, it really just takes a few months for them to stabilize. That's totally understandible about the kibble, don't want them to starve! Do you have any "pet health food stores" in your area (not your regular big chain pet stores, but smaller ones that sell raw pet food). If you do, have a look and see if any of them carry freeze-dried raw food. This is a wonderful "emergency" food to have on hand because it's 100% raw but it's dry and in a bag like kibble, and you just add water and you get an instant meal. If you're interested some good brands are: Stella & Chewey's (dog or cat versions - the dogs have veggies and fruit but a small enough amount to be safe), Wysong Archetypal-1 (also has veggies but VERY tiny amount), Feline Natural, Animal Food Services, Vital essentials and Ziwipeak (but does have sugar in it so shouldn't be fed too much). Here's a thread on them: holisticferret60.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=questions&action=display&thread=82The "soup" recipe (I realize you aren't feeding soup anymore but as long as you are still using 8oz meat to 2oz liver to 1oz heart then it applies to this too - I'm just going to call it "soup" to make it simple ) is actually 100% balanced. So 2oz chicken liver (which is 1 chicken liver) is the right amount. Each ferret needs 2oz of liver per week, so if they are eating relatively equal amounts of each soup batch, and you probably go through 3 soup batches per week, then they are getting the right amount of liver. Same with the heart. If their poops start to look too dark (black, tarry, slimey) though, you can decrease the amount of liver a tiny bit. They actually require a maximum of 2oz of liver each per week so you don't want them getting anymore than that each. Now that they are eating meat chunks what you can do is slowly increase the sizes of the chunks each day. Also, let's try them at some bone since they are doing so great If you are able to pick up some chicken wings (with the tips) or even a whole chicken that you can chop up, we'll start with that. You will need a good pair of butcher scissors or a good knife and what you can do is chop either the chicken wings or the rib-cage of a whole chicken up into nice tiny bite-size bones pieces. Then offer them to the ferrets - put some soup on them if neccessary to entice them, and see how they do! Wishing Bingo good luck!! Hope all goes well!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2012 1:40:42 GMT -5
Also, something I forgot to mention earlier! Once a week I'm going to have you fill out a weekly report just so I can keep track of how everyone's doing. As well if you can submit me a picture of them (similar to the initial pictures you gave them) once every 2 weeks (so not this time but next time) that would be great Here is the report I need filled out for the past week: Please copy/paste this very short questionnaire into your switching thread every Sunday/Monday. 1. Ferret's name: 2. Ferret's weight: 3. Ferret has eaten "X" amount on average per meal. 4. Stools on various proteins. 5. Activity levels: 6. Weekly menu: Example would be: Vincent, 3lbs 2oz(1417g), small chicken wing chopped into 2" pieces, bone and all. Stools good colour and consistency. Played as per normal. Willow, 1lb 4oz(567g), 2 tbsp commercial raw turkey, hand fed. Stools good colour and consistency. Very hyper when up, playing for 2-3 hours at a time. Mr. Frodo, 4lb 4oz(1928g), 1/4c pork slivers mixed with soup. Stools slightly loose, somewhat seedy, and pale in colour. Somewhat more tired, plays for 30 minutes, then finds somewhere to sleep. Flat ferreting more often. Weekly menu was: Monday: chicken legs Tuesday: Commercial raw Wednesday: Soup with pork slivers Etc. Just write what you actually fed them. For the sizes of chunks you are feeding them, if you could let me know which sizes using this guideline: For those who are switching their ferrets to a raw diet. These are generally the guidelines we use for clarification. Standardized sizes, textures, and consistencies for meat. Meat sizes: Slivers- he size of your fingernail cresent. A bit larger than ground, but still very small Bit sized- tiny diced bits of meat approx. 1/8" cubes Small chunk- a bit larger, approx 1/4" cubes Med. chunk- 1/2" cubes Large chunks- 1" cubes If you could post that sometime tomorrow, that would be greatly appreciated!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2012 14:17:35 GMT -5
Any updates? I know you've probably been busy with Bingo's surgery but I do need you to post once a day at this stage in the switch
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Post by gracefuzz on Feb 9, 2012 5:27:46 GMT -5
Hi steph! Sorry haven't posted regularly like before- my internet went down and because of the snow it took BT ages to get it fixed! Yesterday and today they have had just turkey chunks because that was all I had left in the freezer.and kibble overnight. Bingo has taken a backwards step and will just stash food but not eat it- he steals food right from the girls mouths and stashes it too. Because he was a rescue I'm assuming her used to have to fight for food or meals were few and far between.poor sausage. Beanie is eating big chunks of turkey meat all on her own.And I'm not exaggerating but the difference in her is amazing! She is plumper, she has more energy, her coat is lighter, shiny and so soft! She looks like a different ferret.She seems so much better in herself too.I'm really pleased. Shadow will eat smaller, pieces- she likes them long and thin.her coat is also much softer. I tried chicken wings- i cut them up into smaller pieces but no-one touched them. I put oil on them and a bit of soup mixture i saved in the freezer but still no one wants any. I have thought about it and I think I would prefer to feed commercial raw instead-I dont know if you have heard of Prize Choice: prizechoice.co.uk/products/freeflowmincedmeats/index.phpBut I was thinking about using these as my fuzzies wont munch bone- these have bone already minced into them, and they do a chicken and liver mix- so they would be getting their taurine too. They also do chunks of meat, necks, wings, heart and liver etc too: prizechoice.co.uk/products/wholemeatchunks/index.phpWhat do you think?
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Post by gracefuzz on Feb 9, 2012 5:49:31 GMT -5
Shadow, 911g,'soup' Meat Mix roughly chopped progressed on to 1/2"c turkey meat,kibble at night, stools looser, little darker (not kibble coloured anymore), very hyper.
Beanie,680g,'soup' Meat Mix roughly chopped progressed on to 1/2"c turkey meat,kibble at night, stools looser, little darker(not kibble coloured anymore) much more energy, hyper.
Bingo,1330g,'soup' Meat Mix roughly chopped, progressed on to 1/2"c turkey meat,kibble at night, stools looser, little darker (not kibble coloured anymore), hyper and crazy as normal. Weekly menu has been 'Soup' meat mix, with egg shell powder, and now turkey chunks. Tomorrow they may have a Prize choice rabbit meal(it has bone in). Pics to follow.xxx
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2012 11:30:13 GMT -5
Hi steph! Sorry haven't posted regularly like before- my internet went down and because of the snow it took BT ages to get it fixed!? Oh no, glad it's up and working again! No worries though. I just always assume the worst when a mentee stops posting during the beginning of the switch, it's quite common for people to jump ship without even telling us they are giving up the switch But I'm very happy you are still here Yesterday and today they have had just turkey chunks because that was all I had left in the freezer.and kibble overnight. Bingo has taken a backwards step and will just stash food but not eat it- he steals food right from the girls mouths and stashes it too. Because he was a rescue I'm assuming her used to have to fight for food or meals were few and far between.poor sausage. Stashing food is completely normal behaviour. It's their way of hiding it from the others and putting it in a safe place to eat. My ferrets very rarely eat what I put in front of them right away and off the plate. They always stash it, eat a few pieces, then eat the rest later. If he is going back and eating the pieces then this is fine. If you don't think he is, then try make the pieces smaller. It's possible you increased the size too quickly and this threw him off a bit. It's also possible he is still recovering from his surgery and this could be throwing off his eating a little bit. Beanie is eating big chunks of turkey meat all on her own.And I'm not exaggerating but the difference in her is amazing! She is plumper, she has more energy, her coat is lighter, shiny and so soft! She looks like a different ferret.She seems so much better in herself too.I'm really pleased. That is excellent and I believe you, the change really is drastic and noticeable right away. so glad to hear she is doing so much better Shadow will eat smaller, pieces- she likes them long and thin.her coat is also much softer. that is fine Some ferrets just prefer smaller pieces. You can try very very gradually increasing the sizes, but you really don't have to ever go that big in size. They don't need to be eating whole slabs of meat or anything like that, just pieces that are a good size that it gets them chewing and doesnt take you hours to cut into teeny tiny pieces ;D I tried chicken wings- i cut them up into smaller pieces but no-one touched them. I put oil on them and a bit of soup mixture i saved in the freezer but still no one wants any. This can definitely take time. you often have to start with very very tiny pieces of bone. So don't feel too discouraged. Commercial raw is perfectly acceptable. Now this brand you are looking at isn't exactly commercial raw, however. Commerical raw is 100% balanced so it includes the minced meat, the minced bone, heart, liver, and other organs. The kinds you are looking at are actually just minced meat with bone. which is fine. Just be aware that you could NOT just feed this and nothing else. In fact, these would only count as "bone-in" meals so what you would have to do is feed the prize choice for 8-9 meals a week, then you would still have to do 3-4 meals of "muscle meat" (just plain meat from the grocery store with NO bone in it), one meal of hearts and then one meal of organ (1/2 liver, 1/2 kidney/other organ) in order to have a balanced meal. Just to give you an idea, Here's what a ferret needs to be balanced during a week of feeding 2 meals per day (14 meals total): 8-9 bone-in meals (meals where there is more bone than meat, i.e. chicken wings, necks, ribs, other EDIBLE bones). You would feed 8 meals if they were all very boney and 9 meals if you think they didnt get enough bone that week.
3-4 muscle meat meals (meats with NO bone what so ever).
1 Hearts meal (just hearts and nothing else)
1 Organ meal (1/2 of this meal should be LIVER - no more than 2oz per ferret per week, 1/4 of it should be kidney and 1/4 of it should be "other" organ like spleen, brain, etc. If other organ cannot be found 1/2 liver, 1/2 kidney is acceptable)You would also need to use AT LEAST 3 protein sources (so chicken, beef, lamb for example) but the more protein sources - the better! You could definitely use their hearts and liver products, but you would need to get kidney/other organ (brain, spleen, etc.) into their menu as well. The only other thing I have to say about feeding the prize choice as the only bone-source is that you aren't going to get the wonderful teeth-cleaning effects of whole bones. Or the stimulation and enrichment that they get from chewing on them. Now if you truly want to go the commerical raw route, you will have to find a different supplier that sells 100% balanced commercial raw minces/patties (meat, bone, organ and heart). otherwise we will have to balance it like I mentioned above. So I do want you to keep feeding the meat chunks and I would also like you to keep feeding the bones. Quite honestly commercial raw can get very expensive, very quick, so I would at least like you to have the option of feeding you ferrets bones like chicken wings, chicken necks, etc. Does that sound okay?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2012 11:31:36 GMT -5
Shadow, 911g,'soup' Meat Mix roughly chopped progressed on to 1/2"c turkey meat,kibble at night, stools looser, little darker (not kibble coloured anymore), very hyper. Beanie,680g,'soup' Meat Mix roughly chopped progressed on to 1/2"c turkey meat,kibble at night, stools looser, little darker(not kibble coloured anymore) much more energy, hyper. Bingo,1330g,'soup' Meat Mix roughly chopped, progressed on to 1/2"c turkey meat,kibble at night, stools looser, little darker (not kibble coloured anymore), hyper and crazy as normal. Weekly menu has been 'Soup' meat mix, with egg shell powder, and now turkey chunks. Tomorrow they may have a Prize choice rabbit meal(it has bone in). Pics to follow.xxx Looks good Let me know how the rabbit meal goes. rabbit has a strong taste so you may have to stuff it into their mouths a few times to get them to try it.
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