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Post by Heather on Sept 20, 2011 23:45:11 GMT -5
Name:Jen HF Forum Username:jadewolf
1. Where did you first learn about natural diets for ferrets? I saw casual mention on the Mass Ferret Friends board, but most of my knowledge comes from this board
2. Please describe the type of diet you would like assistance in switching your ferret(s) to. I am not certain of the end destination. I definately want a large portion of their diet to be raw. However, they have free run of my living room and I really don't want to be finding rotting meat in my couch, so I may do 2-3 meals a day of raw in the cage and free feed kibble while they are loose. I am only comfortable feeding them the same local, organic, cruelty-free meat I buy for myself, so I'm not sure I'd ever find whole prey that meets that criteria. I'm not currently planning on feeding live prey, but these things do change.
3. Why are you interested in switching your ferrets to a natural diet? I want them to have the best food for their health. I also want to know exactly what goes into it (I fed Evo, grrr) and that only happens if I make it myself. Also, my oldest, Will, has insulinoma that keeps advancing, and I'm hoping a better diet might help slow it, and prevent it in my younger ones.
4. Do you understand that switching your ferret to a natural diet can be a lengthy, arduous process? Yes. No major upcoming life events and rather a lot of free time. And a ridiculous level of dedication to my ferrets.
5. How many ferrets do you currently have? Four' Will, about 6, had him for 2.5 years, male, pretty severe insulinoma and on pred and diazoxide. Weight has been great, he's looking a little pot-bellied and ribby just now possibly because it's coming on fall, or the pred. I'm watching him closely and consulting with the vet. Minnie, about 4, female, had her for 2 months. No health problems but seems really light to me, the same size as my smallest male but only 2/3 the weight. Snorri, one and a half, male, had him about 6 months Healthy as a horse (knock wood). Will eat anything. Dominique, a little over 1, male, had him about 4 months. Really small for a male but at a good weight for his tiny frame. I think he has actually grown a bit since we got him.
6. What diet do you currently feed your ferrets? Primary food is a mix of Evo cat (finishing out the bag and not buying it again because of new formula) and Zupreem Ferret Premium. I just bought a bag of Wysong Epigen 90, but am having problems getting them to eat it because it's new and so hard. They get soup twice a day, current recipe is about 1/3 regular kibble, 1/3 Wysong Epigen, and 1/3 raw minced chicken. The chicken is new and well-received. Treats and supplements: Wysong daily dream beef and pheasant freeze-dried, Ferretone, Vivify, 1/2 an N-bone per week (bad for them, but they love them so much!), Nupro ferret supplement in the soup about once a week, and occasional fish oil or pumpkin. Also a small amount of Vaseline in shedding season.
7. Have you ever tried to switch your ferrets to a natural diet in the past? If yes, what happened? I've occasionally offered them meat, and they treated it like poison, like they do with all new foods. Recently I started mincing raw chicken into their soup. Snorri runs off with his pieces to eat them somewhere safe. Will and Dominique I have seen eat pieces. I haven't seen Minnie eat any, but I think she does.
8. What additional information about yourself or your ferrets would you like to share? I think one major thing I need to do is find a reliable source for purchasing meat that meets my ethical standards, as my regular meat supply is a farmshare and I get what I get, so I might not have much chicken or appropriate ferret meat.
9. How often during the week do you have access to a computer? Most days
10. Please post a picture of each of your ferrets (if possible).
Hi and welcome to the mentoring program. In a little while your mentor (sherry) will introduce herself and you can get started on a new adventure in natural ferret care and diets. Please remember to post regularly (daily or as per arranged with your mentor) so that your mentor can assist you move along safely in this adventure. If you experience computer difficulties or are going to be away, please notify your mentor and most of all relax and have fun . Your mentor is here to help you on this journey. ciao
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Post by Sherry on Sept 21, 2011 8:52:00 GMT -5
Hello there! I'm Sherrylynne, and I'll be your mentor for their switch First, a little about me. I'm 51, and have my own housecleaning business here in Calgary Alberta. I have 4 cats, ranging in age from 6yrs, to 17(only one would eat raw, unfortunately ). I also have 8 ferrets. Boris and Vincent came first, two brothers, a sable and albino. Then Sinnead(rip). I got her when she was 4. She passed at almost the age of 8, had adrenal for 3 years, treated with lupron for 2 of those. After that came my first deaf ferret, Lucrezia. A marked DEW. Then two foster ferrets, whom we fell in love with and adopted- Zeus and Athena, both two years old at that time. Also both adrenal, and on lupron. After that, a little abused ferret we called Willow. She was the worst fear biter I've had, although now she's becoming a sweetie . Then, Emily. 1 month younger than Willow, and those two have bonded strongly. She's the only one Willow wasn't terrified of.Suki is the last one, I swear! She was a little 8 month old darling the pet store was having a hard time selling, so were getting ready to send her back! While transitioning the first four, Boris was my hold out. EVERYTHING I gave him was poison, in his mind . Worst little drama queen I've seen yet . Twisting to get away, gagging, retching- he did all of it! Then one day- he ate it! Every single piece on the plate ! Those four haven't looked back. The next two for transitioning were the fosters. Until we adopted them, I could only supplement with raw. So in order not to cause unnecessary tummy upsets(mixing kibble and raw too closely can cause some problems- more about that later), I'd give them raw one day, and kibble on a different day. So, by the time we adopted, they had no problem with 100% raw diet. With Willow, I brought her home, and she flatly refused to eat the totally ferret kibble, so I went back to the pet store and got her a small bag of the crap they were feeding them there, and brought it home. I tried to give her some, but she just upset the dish. So- I tried her with some chicken breast. She ate it up! Hasn't had kibble since . Emily came to us as a raw fed ferret, so no issues there. Suki was another kibble head, but caging her in the daytime with Miss Emily showed her how to eat raw. And now- we've added Mr. Frodo, who essentially switched himself second day he was here That's me and mine in a nutshell
The reason I started looking a raw feeding was something my vet said to me. I was, at the time, giving them small pieces of fruit for treats. She told me that was VERY bad for them, and in fact, some studies have started to link early feeding of sugars with insulinoma later in life. So- I started thinking. Kibbles are full of carbs. It's all those grains/veg/fruits in them. Those are converted to sugars by the body. To me then, sugar= potential insulinoma. So, I started checking out various diets. I had no idea what an obligate carnivore was at the time. I found out! Not much wonder there was soooo much poop in the box! I may as well have been tossing my money in there. They can't process anything that's not meat based! So I feed meat Their fur is softer, their energy levels are amazing- no mad rushes then crashing. Even my three year old's teeth are amazing. No plaque whatsoever Healing is faster, and if they do get ill, they have more reserves to rely on than when they were just kibble fed! And there is a LOT LESS POOP!!!! Yay! I'm looking forward to helping your little ones get on a much healthier diet, and having fun while we're at it
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Post by jadewolf on Sept 21, 2011 9:41:11 GMT -5
HI Sherry! I'm very excited. My ferrets have been getting the chicken-y soup twice a day, and I started reducing the soup amount. Dominique now eats chicken chunks with just a light dusting of soup, if there's no soup he stashes them but may eat them later. Snorri eats some chicken, but not a huge meal like he does with soup. Minnie and Will, the older sables, are still unconvinced, but if I spoonfeed them a 50-50 mix of small diced chicken and soup they'll eat a moderate amount.
Last night I left the soup and chicken in the room, but I think they ate almost none of it after I left. Today Will, the insulinomic one, has a vet appt at 1, so after morning soup I took out their main kibble bowl and replaced it with a dish of diced chicken. He might as well fast for 4 hours to get a good BG. I want to see if the others will eat the chicken or go out of their way to get to the small dish of kibble in the top floor of the cage.
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Post by Sherry on Sept 21, 2011 11:27:46 GMT -5
It sounds like you've made an excellent start! As i'm sure you're aware, transitioning a group when you have one or more with insulinoma makes it a bit more difficult. But not impossible! During this transition you may want to hand feed Will some soup 3 or 4 times a day, just to keep him stable. Now, is there any way you can separate the two you are still hand feeding for about 4 hours? I'm thinking if they can work up a bit of an appetite they might be a bit more eager for the raw With Dominique and Snorri, start thinning out the soup they get on the meat. We want to get them to the point where the meat is essentially being moistened with water. And that they don't notice the difference ;D As for Snorri eating less meat than soup- that's normal, since ferrets can tend to be very lazy eaters given a choice. Also, like with us, if they have to take the time to actually chew their food, they get full on less As fir Will, depending on how severe his insulinoma is, you may not want to leave him more than 3hrs maximum.
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Post by jadewolf on Sept 21, 2011 15:56:46 GMT -5
Hi Sherry, and thanks!
Will's BG at the vet was 87, which for a four hour fast the vet and I agreed was totally fine. When we got home Dominique went straight for the dish of chicken and started chewing. Will sniffed it and wandered off. Since at that point he was coming on 5 hours, I made up some soup and put in about the same volume of fine-minced chicken as soup. He ate a bit straight from the bowl, but when he stopped I spoon fed him more and he ate about 2 Tablespoons total.
I can cage Will and Minnie, the older, fussier sables, for a while before soup time. And I will start putting waterier soup on Snorri and Dominique's.
At what point do I need to start worrying about getting multiple sources of protein into them? And, I'd really like to come up with a system that doesn't end up with raw chicken all over my living room, but that might be wishful thinking.
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Post by Sherry on Sept 21, 2011 19:33:04 GMT -5
Oh, that's fantastic with Will! I've not had to deal with insulinoma myself yet, but have helped several people switch their insulinomic ferrets. Some of course, worse than others. Ok, just so you are aware, sick ferrets have done quite fine on just meat baby food for up to about 6 months, so we've definitely got some time We'll hopefully be introducing new proteins in about 2-3 weeks. Have you considered feeding dens? You simply keep redirecting the ferret to the den when they try to go elsewhere with the meat. Sooner or later, they usually get the idea. Though they will still usually wind up stashing some somewhere when you aren't watching The dens normally help to minimize it, though: holisticferret60.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=enrichment&action=display&thread=74
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Post by jadewolf on Sept 21, 2011 22:06:09 GMT -5
I did try a feeding den but I didn't stick with directing them to it. I have been putting the dish of chicken right in front of a feeding den, and Snorri generally takes his chicken into it. But poor Dominique isn't allowed in, so he takes his chicken under the cage. I should put a second smaller feeding den right in front of the cage and stick with directing them to 'em. A little work now for less "find the rotting meat" games later.
This eve I took away the kibble at 5 and brought them chicken with soup sauce at 9. The dish of chicken I'd left there all afternoon was untouched, but when I added a little Vivify and pointed it out to Snorri and Dominique, they went to town and ate nearly all of it. They stuck with it a lot longer than past feedings. Dominique is hilarious when he has to chew off a bit of a larger chunk. He goes to step on it to hold it, but I think he doesn't want to step on the squishy thing, so he jerks his paw away.
Will also chowed down on a dish of 50-50 soup and minced chicken, no spoon feeding needed and he ate a lot. He's been grinding his teeth occasionally and pulling hair out of his lower abdomen. The vet isn't sure what is causing it since his BG was fine, so he's on carafate and weekly B12 shots for now.
Minnie didn't even come out of bed for soup, I had to go find her, and she was not pleased with the soup-covered chicken mince. I got her to eat some by dangling her over the bowl- somehow if they're dangling, they'll eat anything. I spoon fed her a bit more, then let her run off.
When I gave the kibble back for the night at 10, Snorri dove in. What a weirdo, he ate a ton of chicken.
So, my current goals are progressively water down the soup on Snorri and Dominique's chicken, and take away the kibble when feasible for a few hours before offering chicken to my stubborn ones, right?
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Post by Sherry on Sept 22, 2011 0:00:48 GMT -5
Correct Also, has Will ever been treated for an ulcer? They are fairly common with pred, and that would explain the tooth grinding. If it's at the beginning stages, it should only need a couple weeks to a month of treatment, rather than the 3 month regiment others have had to do.
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Post by jadewolf on Sept 22, 2011 13:45:58 GMT -5
Will has occasionally been on Carafate/sucralafate, but never actually for a diagnosed ulcer, just general stomach upset. He also didn't have any other symptoms that led the vet towards ulcer. But it is a possibility.
Today's 9am soup went okay, and I took out their dish of kibble as I'm in and out enough to keep offering chicken all day.
At 1 I brought in another dish of chicken for the whites (Snorri and Dominique). Snorri dove in like he was starving, which is ridiculous as the first thing he ate was the two pieces left over from that morning that had been sitting there ignored. When he woke up, Dominique sniffed and wandered off, but later he ate. I put in a couple of pieces with small amounts of rib bone attached. I'm hoping to get them to realize that this is now their food, not a twice-a-day only treat. Whenever I leave chicken in, they pretty much ignore it.
Will ate a bunch of soup-chicken mince from the bowl on the floor, and a bunch more with me holding him and the bowl. Minnie ate a moderate amount but had to be held. I figure I'll let her get a bit hungrier and try again right before I go out at 4.
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Post by Sherry on Sept 22, 2011 14:34:37 GMT -5
Hey, if they are taking it even with hand feeding, that's an amazing step! Mine usually only eat a few bites at one sitting, but do go back off and on. Don't forget- they may digest quickly, but they've only got small tummies Snorri is doing amazingly well! if you like, you could likely move him along a lot faster now. Who knows- maybe watching him will clue the others in. It does often happen that way. A good stater bone is also the wing tips, along with the middle bones in a wing. Just segment them. Once he's built up some jaw strength from the meat, try him with them. As fir the others, just keep doing what you are right now.
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Post by jadewolf on Sept 23, 2011 18:19:47 GMT -5
Things continue about the same. Overnight and today I left the kibble in since I wasn't going to be there to keep reminding Will to eat. Little if any chicken was eaten overnight, but in the morning I put 3 drops of Ferretone on it and Snorri inhaled the bowlful. After I left the room Dominique got up and ate the rest of the chicken. This evening Snorri and Dominique ate another bowlful of chicken strips with a light coating of Vivify. Will still eats the minced chicken with soup. Minnie almost seems to be backsliding, she's now spitting out tiny bits of chicken she used to eat.
Just remembered to remove the kibble in preparation for the 9pm meds and soup, we'll see how it goes.
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Post by Sherry on Sept 23, 2011 19:48:40 GMT -5
Go Snorri and Dominique! Hey, for now, keep using whatever lure they need. You can always start to ease it off in a week or so, once they are eating mainly meat. As for Minnie, that happens sometimes. Try it again at the next feeding, see how she does. You may have to take a step back with her, and bring her along a bit more slowly. Just to make you aware, it's not uncommon for a ferret with insulinoma not to get completely off the kibble. If you can afford it, freeze dried is an excellent option to replace the kibble with. Stella and Chewey's is a good one. As is Wysong's Archetypal 1. AFS also has a freeze dried food.
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Post by jadewolf on Sept 24, 2011 19:54:28 GMT -5
Last night was about the same as previous, except Minnie ate a bit more chicken soup. Today we were gone all day, so we left a bowl of chicken which I assume they did not touch, except maybe Snorri stashed a piece. I'm about to go soup them again now.
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Post by Sherry on Sept 24, 2011 20:08:54 GMT -5
Alright. Stubborn brats ;D When you give the chunks, try dicing them up smaller if you can. They may be objecting to the size right now. You can even use some ground if you like.
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Post by jadewolf on Sept 25, 2011 14:28:17 GMT -5
Hi Sherri. I think you're right, the size is at least part of the issue. I found that at least half of what I gave them Fri and Sat was stashed in the feeding den, and it was mostly the largest chunks. I'm going back to the smaller chunks for the whites.
Last night the sables both ate a bunch of minced chicken well moistened with soup, far more than usual. Had to run out the door for work this am, so I'm just now making more soup and once it's done I'll try Minnie and Will again with the mince and soup mix.
ETA: Will again chowed down on the mince and soup, I have to revise upward my estimate of how much he will eat. And I think he's ready to start getting more watery soup. Minnie ate a bit of soup and chicken. Snorri ate a piece of chicken and stashed one, but they're not getting any more for ah hour or two to see if they'll go back and eat the stash. 50% waste is just ridiculous!
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