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Post by Sherry on Feb 25, 2011 18:36:10 GMT -5
And while I don't have to scruff for nails, I do for ear cleaning when necessary, as well as for some procedures at the vets office, as well as meds. I also had to scruff to get them tasting raw.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2011 22:06:10 GMT -5
Scruffing and natural "ferret mom" behavior is not punishment... I doesn't hurt the ferret physically or mentally since moms carry/drag the babies around form birth. If you do something scary along with the scruff, then that is punishment. Even when I nipped Tomichi's ear - it was something she understood, and she was not frightened - she did not feel threatened. (I obviously did not bite her hard. It was more the gesture than the level of force applied that was significant. Making a loud noise in the room or yelling at them human style is much more stressful to my ferrets than the scruffing/hissing/dragging ever was. Scruffing is not a punishment in to my kids. They are scruffed daily for inspection and grooming. They actually enjoy their grooming sessions - srcuffed and all. It's attention from mom -jennifer
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Post by joan on Feb 25, 2011 23:47:04 GMT -5
As I said on a different thread, I've never seen a jill scruff her kits for discipline after 9-10 weeks, once they're completely weaned. Usually they just hiss at them, and only do a quick scruff (dropping the kit immediately) if the kit ignores the hiss and continues the unwanted behavior. After 10 weeks or so, the jills totally ignore mishavior of any type. And I've only ever seen a ferret or a hybrid jill scruff and drag her kits between 4 and 5 weeks to get them into the litter pan.
That type of discipline may work for the ferrets with docile temperaments and/or those who retain the young mentality, but I think it does more harm than good in the long run. I tell the kits "No bite" in a stern voice for hard nipping and hiss at them if they do it again. If they persist, I either stop interacting with them if they're too wound up to stop or else put them back in their cage if they won't listen.
I agree with Heather, as I do scruff to clip mails, hold them for a vet exam, etc,, and I certainly don't ever want them to associate scruffing with being disciplined. I leaned with my own kits that it not only doesn't work, but is counterproductive. It's my belief that attempting to use scruffing as a form of discipline can backfire big time and turn a playful nipper into a serious biter, especially with the older kits who are maturing mentally and emotionally,
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2011 12:14:45 GMT -5
That's interesting. I have seen the mom's "scruff and drag" . It's most likely a genetics thing. My experience with kits that are still with mom is very limited. I had 2 breeder friends that lived near by, so I did quite a bit of baby sitting. The breeder ferrets involved were not from the AFA breeders, which may be different yet. I know that these ferrets had primarily Canadian and American bloodlines with some European as well. The scruffing with my ferrets has never been perceived as a "punishment". The only time the scruff/drag did not work was with a Scottish jill that had a very sharp temperament. I baby-sat her once alone and two other times with her kits. The ferrets were always kept at my house when I cared for them. The kits were older when I sat them. I had the ferrets for a couple of weeks each time I cared for them. With these ferrets, the scruffing did nothing but send the wrong signal. There were human kids in the household, so the ferts would get set down when they bit . hey were handled wth gloves as well. Nose-flicking was also used. . I t was obvious to me that the ferrets were fear biting. Anyway. I'm sure quite a bit (perhaps all) of the behavior was "taught" by mishandling, and the kits learned from the jill as well. I honestly cannot say whether the there was a true temperament issue of just mishandling. When I had them, I was making great progress with them at the expense of my skin and blood. I started by addressing aggression with the "wild-life hold" under the front legs/from behind with index and third fingers to the sides of the neck. Butt supported as well , of course. Initial "holding sessions" were brief. The ferret would be set down only when is would top acting "100% rabid". When the ferrets began to respond (even the tiniest bit) by quieting down sooner and struggling a bit less, I held them longer. I soon stopped with the "wildlife hold" and just took the abuse quietly - Major blood and punctures - this REALLY, REALLY SUCKED REALLY REALLY BAD. However, I had a very short period of time with these ferts, and they needed to learn fast. I never disciplined them. I felt it was essential to use only slower/controlled motions and keep my demeanor really quiet. Time out did not work since this is what they WANTED. It just took persistence, patience, and a LOT of my blood. By the end of two weeks , the mom was pretty good with me since I had cared for her before and she remembered our first training session from when I had her alone. .The kits still had a long way to go, but even the worst biter had days in which I donated only a pint of blood rather than a gallon. LOL!!! In short, the trust needed o be established. Obviously, all ferts are very different. If something is truly upsetting a ferret in a threatening way, don't do that behavior. Like I said, scruffing was too aggressive for Kachina, while Tomichi needed a stronger signal. There's only one thing that always remains consistent - you need to establish a strong bond of trust with your ferret, and that never comes from harsh treatment. If you have a privately bred ferret that is not responding to what you're doing, the best thing to do is to contact the breeder. Per Joan's comments, her ferrets are a handful of energy. This can be overwhelming if you're expecting her ferrets to respond like Marshall's ferrets, which have been bred to have very docile temperaments. Ahhh, ferrets...never a dull moment!!! -jennifer
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Post by joan on Feb 26, 2011 14:48:34 GMT -5
Jennifer, I'm curious...how old were these kits who were biting hard enough to draw blood? My ferret kits never even started nipping until they were around 8 weeks old and the hybrids don't start it until they're around 10 weeks. I don't doubt that mine would respond to disciplinary scruffing at that age by nipping harder until it escalated into biting, as they would instinctively be reacting to an "attack" by a "predator."
It does sound as though the kits had received very negative socialization and were reacting accordingly. Once that has occurred, it's very hard to regain their trust. Having been told by buyers of privately bred ferrets about the advice they had received re dealing with their nipping/biting kits, especially the older ones, I can't recommend following any advice that encourages harsh treatment of any kind. I posted on the "Holy Cow" thread about one such incident...and that type of thing just horrifies me!!
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