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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2012 12:21:53 GMT -5
Well, just an update, and a question:
Finn has been in rut now for some time, he went into rut early this year, sometime in October I think? Anyway, so far, Finn has been able to live peacefully with Rosco, who is a neutered male. They have been sharing a cage because Finn wasn't bothering him or mounting him.
However, lately, I have found that Finn HAS started occasionally mounting Rosco. It seems he is only doing it very rarely though. I just saw it happen for the first time in weeks last night, and it only lasted maybe 30 seconds.
However, it was different than when he gets a hold of Fenton or Fiona. If he catches Fiona and gets her, she doesn't fight back much, and gets scared and it seems to be a traumatic thing. Same with Fenton, he fights back a little but then screams and gets really upset. With Rosco, however, it was totally different. Finn grabbed him and dragged him into a corner and started mounting him, but Rosco fought back the whole time, biting, using his front paws, and gator-rolling. There was dooking but no screaming, and after Finn let go, Rosco went about his business as if nothing had happened. He did not seem bothered by the incident.
In fact, it started while Rosco was eating, and at first he didn't even stop eating while Finn was mounting him! It was like it doesn't bother him that much. Once it was over Rosco didn't avoid Finn or try to get revenge or anything, he acted like nothing happened.
However, I inspected Rosco's scruff the next day and he had a little scabby spot where Finn had been latched onto him. It was like the "war scabs" they get when they wrestle for dominance.
So, now I have to make a decision whether to separate them. Since Finn seems to do this only rarely, and it doesn't seem to upset Rosco, I am not sure if separating them is necessary. However, Finn DID grab Rosco hard enough to scratch him so that there were scabs. I believe this happened because Finn was latched on and Rosco started gator-rolling to escape. But anyway, I am not sure if it's a big enough deal to separate them. The biggest difference is Rosco's reaction. Fenton and Fiona act like it's a traumatic and upsetting thing when Finn mounts them but Rosco doesn't seem to care and they are cuddling again in no time.
However, I don't really know for sure how often Finn is doing it. I only saw him do it last night, for the first time in weeks, but how do I know he's not mounting Rosco more often when I'm not home?
Even if he is mounting him occasionally, is it that much of an issue? I've heard stories of hobs living together and "practicing" on each other and not minding TOO much. I wonder if this could be like that?
I'm also a little bit reluctant to put Rosco in with Fenton and Fiona, because lately when I have let him play with them, Rosco has been very aggressive with Fenton and was even mounting him the other day, which I suspected could be caused by being in close contact with Finn's hormones all the time.
What do you guys think? Is it safe for them to continue living together?
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Post by Sherry on Dec 31, 2012 14:06:33 GMT -5
For now, I'd say yes and just keep an eye out.
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Post by Heather on Dec 31, 2012 16:15:05 GMT -5
You've got some sudocreme right? Use that on Rosco's neck. I found that it was all I needed when the 'bino brothers tried to practice on each other. They did get a bit scabby but weren't upset with each other. I figured they would be more upset being separated than the occasional mounting game. ciao
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2012 17:00:30 GMT -5
Good idea Heather I totally forgot about Sudocrem ;D
Finn cracks me up. He looks all emo now with his orange eyeliner (hob secretions) ;D
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2012 18:00:47 GMT -5
Finn was being so cuddly and lovey today. Just loves getting his massages. Hard to believe such a cute little teddy bear face can be so naughty sometimes Besides being cuddly, he also has been really agitated today! Wandering around the room, dooking softly to himself, while shoving things out of his way ;D Poor buddy... He's looking for love in all the wrong places I have learned to live with his ruts, it's not an issue really, he could stay intact forever really, I just wonder if it's what is best for him or if he would be happier without the urges. It's a tough question that I'll really have to think about. Now that he's fully mature I wonder if there is any reason not to get him implanted with des for chemical castration. Poor bub has to deal with these unfulfilled urges
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Post by Heather on Dec 31, 2012 19:10:10 GMT -5
I think you will find that there are arguments to support leaving him intact or using the DES, I no longer consider altering an alternative. What does Nancy say? Finn doesn't appear to be a hard keeper, the hardest thing is what health problems "might" happen if using the DES. That's the thing that scares me the most. There may not be any problems, but we don't know, hence offering this as a solution bothers me. After having Odin go adrenal this year, I would never alter my hobs. One consideration, is that Bacchus, does not take his season near as seriously as Enigma.....perhaps a v-hob would better suit (means Finn could have a wee girlie friend if you ever get a jill). Unfortunately, they still go through the rut and I don't know if Bacchus is just the more mellow of the ferrets or if making him a "sport model" has mellowed him out a bit. ciao
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Post by Thérèse on Jan 1, 2013 5:37:15 GMT -5
One thing to consider Mikey is that there are health risks to being intact too, although they are rarely discussed because most ferrets are desexed. Off the top of my head I can't remember them but for male dogs I know testicular cancer is one (had a male friend who just couldn't desex a male dog and they kept dying from it and still he couldn't, boys!). Agreed adrenal is a much greater problem for ferrets at this time, so avoiding that is key but don't forget to consider the other side
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Post by Heather on Jan 1, 2013 12:11:51 GMT -5
I agree there must be downs about keeping intact ferret (other than the smell and the hobnoxious attitude ;D). Testicular cancer does come to mind. After doing major research about testicular cancer in intact dogs many years ago....I would be tempted to ask about the ages and health of his lines. There appears to be some correlation between lines and these cancers (no proof here) but there does appear to be a correlation. Dog breeders have a tendency to be as honest as ferret breeders unfortunately when it comes to the health of their lines. Finn's breeder appears to be honest and open so I would be tempted to ask her. The reason why I mention this is that a lot of the cancers of the reproductive system of pets has been used as scare tactics to make us alter our pets. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen it does....mammary cancers, testicular cancers, ovarian cancers...these are all things that you must be aware of. Mikey, because of your knowlege of computer search engines, I would suggest you research this (I tried and could find nothing about the rates of cancers in intact ferrets, just adrenal which seemingly can occur in intact ferrets though I've never had any knowledge of it). It's not something that we've had to be concerned about until now. ciao
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2013 12:39:52 GMT -5
Yeah good point, I'm sure there are risks to keeping them intact. Another risk for intact dogs is prostate cancer. My sister's intact male dog died of that, and I think it's the most common reproductive-related cancer for human males. I was doing some reading on dogs, and apparently intact females are quite a bit more likely to get cancer than intact males, and mammary cancer was the most common by far, accounting for 70% of ALL dog cancer cases www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18564221Anyway I'll have to search around for information on ferrets too...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2013 16:02:06 GMT -5
There are definitely pros and cons to keeping intact ferrets.
In general, extreme and/or prolonged hormone levels tend to result in cancers over time. This is true for all species. I'm aware of 4 different types of testicular cancer that ferrets can get - prostate issues/cancers can also occur; however, these problems can occur with untreated adrenal disease as well. We also need to remember that, while keeping our ferrets intact is "natural". there's nothing natural about the type of light and light cycles we subject our ferrets to when we keep them as pets. As such, indoor ferrets that remain intact theoretically experience higher and prolonged levels of hormonal stimulation, so the risk of keeping a pet ferret intact is not necessarily the same as it would be for a wild ferret.
For these reasons, I know that some breeders neuter later in life 4.5 - 5 years of age) to mitigate these risks. I'm sure some of these breeders are probably using Des. instead of surgery.
A couple other reasons to squelch hormone production (aside from having to isolate your hob and watch him be frustrated) is that "hob-noxious behavior" is VERY stressful on your other ferrets. Even when the hob is not being terribly intrusive, the constant pestering causes a LOT of stress for those who are recipients of this aggressive attention. As we know, excessive stress levels can take a toll on health over time. SO yes, the decision on how to manage an intact ferret is not simple, and a lot of factors come into play - including the temperament of the hob in question. Because of this, I beleive the decision should be made on a case-by-case basis.
-jennifer
-jennifer
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Post by crazylady on Jan 1, 2013 16:50:45 GMT -5
Hi Mikey I keep a lot of brothers together ( no more than two in each cage ) most of the year they get along together no problem in breeding season you get the odd game of practice lol as heather has mentioned use sudocreme this works well to keep the practice sessions down and prevent any bad damage to the neck area with regards to testicular cancer simply get in to the habit of feeling his jewels ( my guys get checked at least twice per week ) you soon can feel any sudden changes ( dont panic if one day there bigger lol that happens lol ) what you are feeling for are irregular lumps and bumps or one suddenly being a lot larger than the other I am sure you will find finn wont mind lol take care bye for now Bev
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2013 15:34:38 GMT -5
Just a little update, I guess Finn's rut has intensified somewhat, even though his jewels have not gotten any larger and he isn't any greasier. What changed is that he's singing his hob song now ;D He'll trundle around the room muttering to himself like a little old man. It's funny, because one side effect is that now, he grunts when he exerts himself ;D When he jumps up into the cage, or when he jumps down onto the floor, you'll hear a little grunt, it's really cute ;D We go on walks 2 or 3 times a week but his wanderlust is insatiable! Even after a 1 to 2 mile walk, once we get home, he is ready to go on another! He has gotten into the habit of jumping up and down at the baby gate trying to get out, but he doesn't jump nearly high enough. He's down to 4.5 lbs or maybe less, and I almost wonder if as he gets thinner he might eventually make the jump ;D He's still sweet and gentle with me though Here are some updated pics, you can see how he has slimmed down a little. The bald patch on his chest from when he gave blood for Stella hasn't filled in, I guess it won't until his coat changes ;D Getting a treat: Untitled by walkerstop, on Flickr Finn says "Can we PLEASE go for another walk?" Untitled by walkerstop, on Flickr Finn on a walk, patrolling the park. Each tree has a little hole in the ground next to it where a support pole used to be. He loves going from tree to tree and checking each hole! And of course, going down the slide is part of our routine at the park: Anyone who has an intact hob, or any ferret with an excess of energy and wanderlust, or even if your ferret just needs exercise and you don't have a large enough area for them to run around, I HIGHLY recommend taking them for walks! I don't think there is anything Finn enjoys more than walk time
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Post by Heather on Jan 9, 2013 16:59:15 GMT -5
If you can control a lot of his restlessness with long walks that's not a really bad deal. How's he with his friend? Still ok? Tico is starting to come into season. No real change in his manly bits, he's still tucked higher than he was in October, but he's putting on his manly cologne and he's getting a bit greasy. So, it's time soon. He's not started singing except he discovered that Lady Morgain was on the other side of the ferret room door the other day and he paced back and forth singing to her. She was doing a fair bit of singing herself (she has a lot to say anyway ;D). The 'bino brats have done absolutely nothing except...they're turning orange . They're not greasy, they don't smell bad and their activity level is still 0. Soon, everyone will start kicking things into gear. ciao
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2013 17:04:55 GMT -5
Aww I am sure your hobs will all be going nuts soon ;D Finn is ahead of schedule, after all.
Finn and Rosco are still doing OK together. I have caught Finn harassing Rosco again, but it wasn't intense, Rosco almost was ignoring his advances. I have not found any more large scabs on Rosco's scruff. But I'm keeping an eye out in case they need to be separated.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2013 17:11:29 GMT -5
Is Finn an olympian? LOL I've seen the walking videos and he goes SO fast!!
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