Lefty2026's Switching Thread/Sherry

[Heather]

1. Where did you first learn about natural diets for ferrets?
I was reading online about insulonoma and looking for better duck soup recipes and happened onto this site.

2. Please describe the type of diet you would like assistance in switching your ferret(s) to. Be sure to include if you are interested in feeding whole prey (live or frozen-thawed) and if you are wanting to FULLY switch to a natural diet or PARTIALLY. If you are unsure what kind of diet you want to put your ferrets on, please express that and we can help you find the best type of natural diet for your ferret.

I'm unsure. They are picky, and I can only be home to feed them a couple times a day. Right now I am leaning towards a commercial raw with still leaving them with kibble over night or while I am at work. I wouldn't want to do live, but I'm not against trying out other options once I get them to eat some different things. I would eventually like to get them on an all natural diet, but I want to start slow and I don't want Crazy to go too long between meals.

3. Why are you interested in switching your ferrets to a natural diet?

They have so many medical issues. Both Crazy and Curi have adrenal (although Curi seems cured since surgery). Crazy will not have surgery, since his tumor is on the right and its too risky especially since he also has insulonoma. Prednisone is not controlling his blood sugar, but regularly feeding him fatty high protein meals seems to help a lot. I want to see if I can help him through diet and maybe wean off the drugs a little. They are both 5 years old, and I want to try anything to make them a little healthier.

4. Do you understand that switching your ferret to a natural diet can be a lengthy, arduous process? Its not an overnight switch. It can be a commitment of several weeks or even months. Your HF Mentor will be more then happy to assist you in switchng your ferret(s) to a natural diet, but you need to be equally as commited. If you aren't willing to tough out a potentially lengthy switching process, or if you have major life changes approaching (baby on the way, moving, starting school, getting married/divorced, etc) then it might be a better idea to wait on switching your ferret's diet until you have more time. Are you willing to make the commitment?

Yes.

5. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names? Ages? Genders? Do they have any health problems? Are they overweight? Underweight? How long have you had each ferret for?

I have two ferrets, Crazy and Curi. They are both five year old boys and I've had them since they were 8 months old - and yes they both have health problems as I said before. Curi had adrenal since he was 2, he had surgery for it a year ago and is doing much better although he is still pretty bald, but at least hes peeing normally. He also has a little skin growth, which is going to be removed soon. He was a little thin, but now I think his weight it perfect since surgery.

Crazy is also adrenal and he has a lupron implant, and doesn't seem to be having any complications from that. He also has insulonoma. His blood sugar at the last check was 65. He is take .4 ml prednisone twice a day. Crazy has a pretty big belly, but its hard to say if he's overweight, since part of it is the tumors in there He's also deaf, but that doesn't seem to both him at all. He's the white guy in the picture, Curi is the sable.

Crazy and Curi live with me, a foster cat, and a turtle.

6. What diet do you currently feed your ferrets? (Please include all treats, supplements, etc)

EVO kibble is available all the time. Crazy gets duck soup made from chicken, gerbers baby food, chicken or beef liver and eggs twice a day and Curi gets it once in awhile as a treat. They both also love ferretone and get a spoonful every few days.

I recently bought a sample pack of primal raw for cats and I've been mixing that into the duck soup. Crazy is gobbling it up, but Curi just has a few bites. Curi acts like I am trying to poison him everytime I make him taste it, even though he seems to like it once he does. Curi also sometimes steals the foster cats terrible corn loaded kibble, but I try to keep it where he can't get to it.

7. Have you ever tried to switch your ferrets to a natural diet in the past? If yes, what happened?
No, when they were young they at marshalls, but my old vet suggested EVO. They both have had improvements in energy and poop consistency since switching to EVO, so I am hoping making an even bigger switch will have even bigger benefits.

8. What additional information about yourself or your ferrets would you like to share?
Hmm, I think they are just normal ferrets. They are still pretty happy guys despite their issues. They love to play, and they love each other. Their favorite game is to ride on a towel and have me drag them around the room, well that and hiding and attacking my feet as I walk by.

9. How often during the week do you have access to a computer?
Normally everyday.

10. Please post a picture of each of your ferrets (if possible).

Hi and welcome to the mentoring program. In a little while your mentor (sherry) will introduce herself and you can get started on a new adventure in natural ferret care and diets. Please remember to post regularly (daily or as per arranged with your mentor) so that your mentor can assist you move along safely in this adventure. If you experience computer difficulties or are going to be away, please notify your mentor and most of all relax and have fun . Your mentor is here to help you on this journey.
ciao

[Sherry]

Hello there! I'm Sherrylynne, and I'll be your mentor for their switch
First, a little about me. I'm 51, and have my own housecleaning business here in Calgary Alberta. I have 4 cats, ranging in age from 6yrs, to 17(only one would eat raw, unfortunately ). I also have 8 ferrets. Boris and Vincent came first, two brothers, a sable and albino. Then Sinnead(rip). I got her when she was 4. She passed at almost the age of 8, had adrenal for 3 years, treated with lupron for 2 of those.
After that came my first deaf ferret, Lucrezia. A marked DEW. Then two foster ferrets, whom we fell in love with and adopted- Zeus and Athena, both two years old at that time. Also both adrenal, and on lupron.
After that, a little abused ferret we called Willow. She was the worst fear biter I've had, although now she's becoming a sweetie . Then, Emily. 1 month younger than Willow, and those two have bonded strongly. She's the only one Willow wasn't terrified of.Suki is the last one, I swear! She was a little 8 month old darling the pet store was having a hard time selling, so were getting ready to send her back!
While transitioning the first four, Boris was my hold out. EVERYTHING I gave him was poison, in his mind . Worst little drama queen I've seen yet . Twisting to get away, gagging, retching- he did all of it! Then one day- he ate it! Every single piece on the plate ! Those four haven't looked back.
The next two for transitioning were the fosters. Until we adopted them, I could only supplement with raw. So in order not to cause unnecessary tummy upsets(mixing kibble and raw too closely can cause some problems- more about that later), I'd give them raw one day, and kibble on a different day. So, by the time we adopted, they had no problem with 100% raw diet.
With Willow, I brought her home, and she flatly refused to eat the totally ferret kibble, so I went back to the pet store and got her a small bag of the crap they were feeding them there, and brought it home. I tried to give her some, but she just upset the dish. So- I tried her with some chicken breast. She ate it up! Hasn't had kibble since . Emily came to us as a raw fed ferret, so no issues there. Suki was another kibble head, but caging her in the daytime with Miss Emily showed her how to eat raw. And now- we've added Mr. Frodo, who essentially switched himself second day he was here
That's me and mine in a nutshell

The reason I started looking a raw feeding was something my vet said to me. I was, at the time, giving them small pieces of fruit for treats. She told me that was VERY bad for them, and in fact, some studies have started to link early feeding of sugars with insulinoma later in life. So- I started thinking. Kibbles are full of carbs. It's all those grains/veg/fruits in them. Those are converted to sugars by the body. To me then, sugar= potential insulinoma.
So, I started checking out various diets. I had no idea what an obligate carnivore was at the time. I found out! Not much wonder there was soooo much poop in the box! I may as well have been tossing my money in there. They can't process anything that's not meat based! So I feed meat
Their fur is softer, their energy levels are amazing- no mad rushes then crashing. Even my three year old's teeth are amazing. No plaque whatsoever Healing is faster, and if they do get ill, they have more reserves to rely on than when they were just kibble fed!
And there is a LOT LESS POOP!!!! Yay!
I'm looking forward to helping your little ones get on a much healthier diet, and having fun while we're at it
Ok, let's get started. Since you aren't sure just what type of diet you want them on yet, let's start with some soupie.
Pick up some chicken, livers, hearts. Puree approx 1cup(8oz) chicken meat-any kind. Along with about 2oz liver, and a couple chicken hearts if you can get them. Add in about 1/2 tsp eggshell powder(I make my own. Rinse out the egg shells after you've broken them, let them dry for a day or two, and pulverize. You can use either a coffee grinder or mortar and pestle). Add enough water to make a soup the consistency of cream.
When your fuzz are out playing, pick one up, dab it on his nose so he has to lick it off. Keep doing this over and over til they lick it from your finger.
Let me know how they do!

[lefty2026]

Hi! Thanks and great to meet you. I already make them soupy, out of chicken, livers and eggs, but its cooked except the eggs. I have an ice cube tray of that still, so I've been trying to mix the raw with the stuff they already like. I have some frozen raw chicken and duck livers in my freezer, so maybe I can try feeding them that also.

I got a Primal raw sample pack at a local food store, and I've been mixing that with some of the soupy and serving it to them about 4 times a day. I doubt I will be able to keep up with that schedule for very long, so eventually it will have to be twice a day. They seem to like the food alright once they are eating it, and they are both eating it as long as it has a soupy consistency. They leave over any chunks. Curi does slightly better than Crazy as far as eating the more solid peices.

I tried to smoosh eggs shells in a bowl, but they were more cracked than pulverized. I'm going to have to clean the coffee grinder. There is bone in the Primal at least.

Getting them to try stuff doesn't seem too difficult, but getting them to actually chew may take some time.

Maybe its in my head, but they actually seem healthier after just 3 days. Crazy hasn't had a single one of his blood sugar "crashes". They've been awake more hours and very playful.

I tried to give them a plain egg yolk Sunday morning since they like soupy consistencies, but they hated it. Curi ate a little, but Crazy wouldn't go near it.

[Sherry]

Alright! Best bet right now I think is going to keep mixing in the raw with the cooked soup, and slowly increase the ratio of raw to cooked. Even though they seem to be pretty accepting, if you move to fast for them, they'll rebel, and start refusing
We'll worry about introducing chunks once they are on a total raw soup. Since you are dealing with insulinoma, you will either have to do the 4 times a day feeding, or leave kibble in the cage for now to prevent a crash. You could, however, check into freeze dried raw to replace the kibble. It can get expensive, though.
And yes, they start taking in the nutrition almost immediately, so you'll notice a very quick difference in energy levels, etc
As for the egg, if they don't like it, don't worry about it. Only a few of mine are even interested in raw egg. You can also feed it cooked. Scrambled, boiled, etc.

[lefty2026]

I think I'm doing about 50/50 cooked soup to raw right now, maybe a little less. They are doing better at cleaning the bowl. I've been leaving the kibble even though I'm feeding them 4X a day. I worry I could get stuck at work with a lunch meeting or something and I don't want Crazy to go 8 hours or more. I'm thinking I will stick to the 50/50 for this week and maybe next week I'll try to push it to 25/75.

So far, its much easier than I expected it to be, they are normally very picky, but they seem to really like this stuff. The only annoying thing is that the Primal sample pack is 4 different flavors, so every time I open a new package, its kinda of a step backwards. I switched from Quail to beef/salmon yesterday and they were skeptical, but actually seem to like it better. It looks nicer to me, more pink instead of grayish. It seems like a lot of different types of meat all at once, but so far they don't seem to be having any tummy troubles.

What is freeze dried raw? I saw that mentioned in another post, but I'm confused about it. Where could I buy it? It's safe to leave out all day? Just about anything is cheaper than adding more meds and trips to the vet, so I'm willing to spend a reasonable amount on this diet change, as long as it seems to make a difference.

They do definitely seem more energetic, they haven't slept through any play times in the last few days. The water bowl is also cleaner, since they are eating less kibble and less crumbs are getting in the water.

[Sherry]

Here's a thread about Casey's Hidden Pantry(she's an infrequent member here):
holisticferret60.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=store&action=display&thread=60
Freeze dried is raw meat that's essentially been freeze dried. It can be fed reconstituted with water, or fed dry. When fed dry, it can be left in the cage for about a week or so before they won't touch it. They come in resealable bags, so the patties stay fresh. What you want to wind up doing is getting them converted to raw first, then start introducing the freeze dried. Stella and Chewey's will give you the most variety. To start replacing the kibble, you simply start with crumbling some up for them to see if they'll eat it. If not, you start mixing it in with the kibble, slowly adding more and more until it's all freeze dried and no kibble.
The great thing about when you get them on chunks is that you'll be able to leave the larger chunks of meat in the cage for up to 24 hours. That way, they'll have the option of either.

[Sherry]

Oh, and if they are taking to it that well, try increasing raw every 3 days or so. If they balk at it, you can always go back to the previous level

[lefty2026]

Thanks for the link. There are so many choices of different foods. It's a little overwhelming. The freeze dried seems like it will make it possible to get them 100% off kibble. They are use to eating frequently, so that would help.

This morning I put out the food and they went straight for the bowl. I definitely think beef/salmon is a good choice of flavor for them. The only thing is they ate all they wanted then played for half an hour or so while I got ready for work, but when I put them back in their cage -they went straight for the kibble, so they didn't eat enough to fill themselves up for very long. Maybe I need to put out a bigger serving or make sure I leave time to guide them back to the food bowl for a nibble before they go back ot the cage.

I will try increasing the ratio a bit. It seems that even if they balk a little they can be lured back to it with a drop or two of ferretone.

[Sherry]

Definitely try redirecting. Do they have access to the kibble when out of cage? If not, then try the redirect with the kibble out, and pop it back in just before you leave.

[lefty2026]

They seem to be fine with the new mix. I feel like Curi is doing most of the eating though, and Crazy is just lapping up the soup and leaving. I did serve him some seperatly though this morning and he ate with a little ferretone on top. It's hard to tell though when they both go for the bowl, who is eating what.

I'm thinking that if I just added some water to the raw food and made it soupy like they like it they would probably eat it. Then what's the next step? to get them eating bigger pieces?

I'll try putting out the raw at lunch if I can get home then and see if they just eat it. Though I'm not sure what I'd do with all the cooked duck soup I have lol, maybe a nice pate with crackers next time I have guests?

[lefty2026]

Oh and yes, I take the kibble away while I'm home and they are out. They choose the wet food over the kibble, but they do kind of flip out when the realize the kibble is not there. They start collecting all the little bits they can find in there.

[Sherry]

Oct 7, 2011 7:54:01 GMT -5 @lefty2026 said:

but they do kind of flip out when the realize the kibble is not there. They start collecting all the little bits they can find in there.

Sorry, can't help it ;D

Try adding the water to the raw! Can't hurt If they eat it, fantastic. If not, we move a bit slower.
The general pace is puree--> thicker puree--> wet ground texture--> slivers of meat mixed in--> slivers slowly replacing ground--> working up the size of bits to chunks-->different proteins--> smashed up bone meats--> intact bone meats--> organ meats--> balanced diet.

[lefty2026]

Yeah, they are hilarious. Sorry for dissapearing for a few days, I thought I had nothing going on in my life at the moment, but I've got more going on now than I planned. In any case, I want to keep this up as they do seem healthier than before and I would really rather spend time trying to give them healthier lifestyles than spend more time at the vet.

Crazy doesn't have any of those insulinoma episodes with the staring off when I give them the raw 4 times a day, but if I only get to in twice a day, he does, even though it is less than before I started. Eventually I'd like to get a meal plan where I can feed them morning and evening, but they have something good and healthy to munch on inbetween.

They eat the raw food pureed with some water, so I guess the next step is to thicken the puree. As it is I feel like they leave over any bits that aren't completely mush, I think I will try adding a little less water tonight and see if they eat.

Curi seems to have more tolerance for the thicker stuff, so I'm going to have to pay attention to exactly what Crazy is eating. Right now I'm feeding them both from one bowl, so its hard to tell exactly who eats what.

They had some freeze dried turkey livers at the pet store, so I bought some and left some little pieces with them in the cage. I really doubt that they will eat them, but they are in the food bowl with the kibble, so maybe they will. I know they aren't enough to replace kibble, but I'd guess that the texture is similar to the S&C food that you recommended, so I tried them. I haven't ordered the other food yet because I wasn't sure if there was much of a point when the still won't eat anything that requires chewing. Although they chew their kibble just fine.

Can you really leave a chunk of raw meat out for 24 hours? That seems like a long time. I get nervous eating at buffets where the food is only out for a couple hours haha. It would make this all much easier if thats true.

[Sherry]

Don't forget- our digestive process can take 24-48 hours. Their's is only 3-4 hours It takes something like salmonella at least 8 hours to brew up in the gut. By that time, they've already pooped it out. BEFORE it develops.
A wild weasel will catch something like a rabbit, drag it off to his den, and feed off of it for a week with no ill effects. And if what we give them has already gone bad, they simply won't touch it! Smart little beggars that way ;D
I cannot count the number of times I've caught one of them running across the room with a piece of dessicated something, hide and eat it And yes- I feed in the cage, but they are very good at climbing the cage and hooking it out. Or they'll shove it out while in there, and rescue it later if I've not caught them at it

[lefty2026]

Makes sense. My guys picked the little freeze dried turkey liver crumbs out of the food bowl, so I think it will be awhile before they start eating that. They did the same thing though when I switched them from Marshalls food to EVO - they picked out all the EVO kibbles but it didn't take them long to get over it.

Anyway, I tried to make the pate a little thicker and they didn't like it at all, but I'm thinking maybe if I just put a couple of tiny chunks of meat in the soup they will eat them.

Part of the problem with moving forward is that they are not that hungry when I feed them since they still are eating their kibble, so they probably are not very motivated to try anything that doesn't entirely appeal to them. Maybe this weekend I can be home more and feed them often and take the kibble away for more of the day.

It does seem like they are choosing the soupy over the kibble though, because they are now both running to the food bowl as soon as I open up their cage.