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Post by katt on Sept 18, 2011 1:05:13 GMT -5
Ok. So get some chicken wings and smash them up with a hammer really well so the bone and meat are all mangled together and the marrow is exposed. Then using the scissors and knife, cut the pulpy mess into pieces close to the size of the chunks they are eating now. You might have to Scruff N Stuff a few pieces of marrow, but marrow is a lot like candy - they love it. Once they realize it is edible anyways... If they resist, then you can try pouring a little oil over it, or mixing in a little bit of soup. Let me know how it goes.
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Post by tpallotta0107 on Sept 18, 2011 11:35:06 GMT -5
Sounds like a plan. They had beef chunks and chicken hearts this morning and I plan on giving them the chicken wings for dinner. I smashed them up pretty well so hopefully they will eat without scruffing them.
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Post by katt on Sept 18, 2011 14:42:23 GMT -5
Sweet. Let me know how they do. Also that's good they took beef, keep offering them different meats. I'll make you a list of foods they can have when I have my comp, but for now try pork, turkey, Cornish game hen, etc. Whatever you have access to. Keep me posted on the bones!
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Post by tpallotta0107 on Sept 18, 2011 14:55:43 GMT -5
Gave them chicken wings with bones crushed up for dinner. As soon as I put them in the cage they went after them. They are trying to eat the bones but seem to be having some problems chewing them up. Should I try and crush them up smaller or just give them some time?
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Post by katt on Sept 18, 2011 15:56:14 GMT -5
Just give them time. They are going really fast but they have to build up the jaw strength.
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Post by tpallotta0107 on Sept 18, 2011 17:10:29 GMT -5
It does seem like they are going really fast, I was prepared for months of scruff-n-stuff. I am happy that they are taking the raw diet so well, but was willing to do what every it took to get them on a healthier diet.
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Post by tpallotta0107 on Sept 20, 2011 9:00:18 GMT -5
Ok so far they will eat chicken chunks, bone in wings (still working on getting the bones chewed up), pork, chicken liver, hearts & gizzards, and beef. They are not crazy about the beef and I find them hiding it around the cage alot but they will eat it, it just takes them a while.
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Post by katt on Sept 21, 2011 3:50:33 GMT -5
They are doing great! Keep it up, you're doing an amazing job! Beef has a stronger flavor than the other meats so it's usually saved to be introduced later when they at least know what meat is. So I'm not surprised. Keep feeding it to them though. It might never become their favorite, but the more they eat it the more used to it they will get and they should do better with it in time. What other meats do you have access to? The rule is a BARE MINIMUM of 3 proteins (which you have - pork, chicken, beef) but the more variety you can get the better. Pretty much anything meat-wise sold as fit for human consumption that is not processed, flavored/seasoned, or injected with saline (read labels) is okay for them. And many things not "fit" for human consumption are okay too. I'll post a list below.
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Post by katt on Sept 21, 2011 3:55:45 GMT -5
Check Asian markets, Halal meat markets (African markets), other ethnic markets, and butchers. You can always ask if anyone can save scraps or special order for you. The organs I usually find are: beef liver pork liver pork kidney chicken liver Then when I get whole ducks and rabbits from the Asian market they have the organs in them still. Look around too for a pet store that carries commercially ground raw meats. These are a GREAT way to add variety as they often have proteins that you won't find in the store, and they usually have organ, heart, and bones ground into them (but not always so be sure to check). I can get commercial ground: pheasant, rabbit, chicken (Koda can't eat this), turkey, beef (also a no-no for Koda), bison, quail, tripe. Also if you have trouble finding anything, there are other routes you can take. There are some places online where you can order commercially ground organ meat patties and such, and Worst case scenario, there are supplements that can help fill in the gaps but that is a last resort. OK for variety here are some ideas. Pretty much any meat you can get your hands on is ok for them: chicken turkey pork beef (also veal) bison (buffalo) rabbit duck pheasant quail venison and game meats rodent cornish game hen moose goose lamb goat fish (mackerel, salmon, halibut, goldfish, etc also, fish oil is very good for them) Start trying to add in as many new meats as you can find. The more variety the better! Also, seeing as how it is unrealistic to keep an entire farm in your freezer start just trying to locate new meats so that you have an idea of what you have access to, and where you can find what. When you find them feel free to try them out! Some "parts" that are good to have of all of the above animals: heart (is a muscle meat but vital for the taurine) liver kidney spleen tongue (is a muscle meat) brain (VERY nutritious organ meat - high in taurine) gizzards (is a muscle meat - great for cleaning teeth) chicken feet (good bone source - i.e. for a "bone-in" mean you could feet pork chops and chicken feet) necks (also a good bone source) ribs (pork ribs have edible bones - usually that is right on the line of thickest bones they can eat, some ferrets can handle pork ribs other can't, or at least don't, eat the bones, but they can often still get the marrow out depending on the cut) For weight gain if you ever need it, look around for some pork side, pork belly (not stomach, but the meat), or uncured bacon. It is all essentially the same thing - very fatty pieces of pork. Duck is also high in fat. In some places Duck is seasonal, but I find that my Asian market carries it year round. Their diet should be pretty high in fat naturally so unless you are feeding fatty meats as their primary diet you shouldn't have to worry about them being too fattening. If anything they make up for the leanness of chicken.
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Post by katt on Sept 21, 2011 3:57:23 GMT -5
Also, keep adding meats and slowly increasing the size of the bones. In the meanwhile, I want you to start working on a menu. It should be a week's menu of meals with details. Here are some menus from graduated mentees... Feed them heart at least 1-2 times a week so that they are getting the taurine that they need. And organs should be 10% of the diet. Ideally the organ meat should be half liver, and the other half a variety of things such as: kidney, spleen, and brain. Here are some example menus. Your final menu should look something like these... SUNDAY: AM- Cornish Hen: Wings , rib cage and diced meat PM- elk tendons and commerical Duck patties (pretty sure the Duck patties have bone in them, not sure about organs - yet to pick them up) MONDAY: AM - Organs (chicken liver, hopefully other types of liver, beef organ patties eventually and pork brain - what other organs do they need? spleen? kidney?) And I realize they are going to have nasty poops ;D Do I give a whole bunch of organs at once or alternate them each week? Is it better to split this into two meals? PM - Cornish Hen: Legs, back and diced meat (basically the rest of the cornish hen from Sunday) TUESDAY: AM - Pork Muscle Meat (depending on what I have on hand this will be one or more of the following: pork tenderloin, pork chops, pork ribs - they don't really eat the bones so it counts as muscle meat, pork belly sliced - it looks like unseasoned bacon, the closest thing I could find to what you described) PM - Hearts and chicken necks(Chicken hearts for now, but hopefully I can get pork and beef hearts too) WEDNESDAY: AM - Goat meat (stewing goat chunks/some bone, commercial ground goat/includes organs) PM - Chicken wings and chicken backs THURSDAY: AM - Turkey Necks and split turkey wings PM - Hearts and chicken gizzards(hopefully a different kind of heart from what they had earlier in the week) FRIDAY: AM - Lamb meat and bones (commercial ground lamb/includes organs, and lamb bones to chew on - don't think they can eat these, just suck the marrow out) PM - Whole Quail (bone in) cut into smaller chunksSATURDAY: AM - Hearts (hopefully different from whatever kind of hearts they got earlier in the week - if I could go pork hearts one meal, chicken hearts one meal and beef hearts one meal I think I'd be set and wouldn't have to supplement with Taurine? Or should I get taurine supplements anyways?) PM - Commerical rabbit meat (ground carcass with bone- I too think this includes organs but let me know if you find out) I do want to get Beef in there somewhere too once I can get them eating it. I actually bought veal cutlets and am going to try them with veal first and then work my way up to the beef ;D Also possibly work frozen thawed mice in eventually, but I think for now that's a decent menu? Okay sounds good, I added more bone to the menu, I was so glad to hear that I could use them more than once For some reason some meats (even the obvious ones) are hard to find here Oh well, let me know what you think, again Fifth ferret menu.Monday: turkey breast, turkey necks, heart Tuesday: gizzards, pork loin chop meat, chicken wings Wednesday: chicken feet, salmon Thursday: heart, veal- only meat, chicken drumstick or thigh (bone broken up) Friday: liver, chicken ribs Saturday: heart, chicken or turkey neck Sunday: chicken wings, heart, and beef sirloin I will also switch out some of these meats for bison, lamb, and other fish (such as whitefish, halibut, and tilapia) I noticed the local market has duck feet and head, as well as pig face which appears to have meat, fat, skin, and cartilage. My fuzzes already love eating the bones in chicken feet so I bet duck feet would be a no-brainer. I could incorporate those, to get this: Third draft: Monday morning - Mousey (whole, jumbo mice) Monday night - Rabbit legs or ribcage (I forget which I have left) Tuesday morning - Chicken hearts Tuesday night - Chicken wings Wednesday morning - Turkey neck Wednesday night - Turkey back and ribs Thursday morning - Duck hearts with chicken feet Thursday night - Pig heart with chicken feet Friday morning - Chicken back & breast Friday night - Pig face Saturday morning - Beef heart with duck feet Saturday night - Beef heart with duck feet Sunday morning - Chicken liver & gizzard Sunday night - Turkey liver & gizzard What do you think? Today is beef chunks and some left over ground turkey. There is some pork on sale for $1.29 a lb, so I am going to pick some of that up this weekend. I'm not sure if you saw my "Diet of mostly rodents" thread. I definitely want to do mostly whole prey eventually. The cost right now isn't necessarily feasible, but that is my eventual goal. With my girls pickiness, I don't think large whole prey will be an option for a bit. If I just put a rabbit in front of them they will pick and choose what they want. But with smaller whole prey, that is much harder What do you think of this diet: Monday: Mice Tuesday: Rats Wednesday: Bone in meal Thursday: Hamsters Friday: Gerbils Saturday: Bone in meal + extra organs Sunday: Bone out meal Would this be a little better? MONDAY -Chicken wings -Turkey neck TUESDAY -Pork chops -Liver and hearts WEDNESDAY -Quail -Turkey breasts THURSDAY -Hearts, gizzards and kidney/liver -Lamb FRIDAY -Veal and liver -Chicken ribs SATURDAY -Rabbit meat -Chicken wings SUNDAY -Chicken legs -Pork chunks I'll try getting in some more variety, if I can find goat, buffalo, duck, etc...I'll add some in there! I could also try giving them a rat or a mouse here and there but I'm not too comfortable with seeing a ripped open mouse in my cage just yet. ;D When I get more comfortable with prey, I can get some frozen rabbits at my reptile store, I'm sure they would enjoy that. Just a few examples. The ratios should be roughly (as a reminder) 10-15% bone, 10% organ (at least half liver), and 75-80% muscle meat (including heart, and gizzards).
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Post by tpallotta0107 on Sept 21, 2011 11:42:18 GMT -5
ok, I will keep that in mind and start working on my menu.
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Post by katt on Sept 22, 2011 5:08:58 GMT -5
Ok. Let me know what you come up with and keep me posted on their food progress.
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Post by katt on Sept 24, 2011 23:40:57 GMT -5
Updates?
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Post by tpallotta0107 on Sept 25, 2011 6:40:05 GMT -5
They are still doing really good. I added some shrimp and tuna this weekend, they weren't crazy about it but ate it. This is what this weeks menu looks like
Sunday: 1 raw chicken back Monday: 3 raw chicken wings Tuesday: 1.5 cups of boneless lamb chunks Wednesday: ½ Cornish hen Thursday: 1.5 cups boneless beef chunks Friday: ½ Cornish hen Saturday: 3 chicken livers, 3 chicken hearts, 9 chicken gizzard, & 1 raw egg
I plan on breaking this up into 2 meals a day. They seem to eat more and hide less if there's not so much on their plate.
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Post by katt on Sept 26, 2011 4:00:35 GMT -5
Koda and Kenai won't touch shrimp. I haven't tried Tuna yet though. So far not a bad start on the menu, but you need more heart. Heart should be about 1-2 full meals a week at the least - or the equivalent. Also, what can you get for other organs? Ideally organs should be about 50% liver and 50% other organs like kidney, brain, stomach (though it's a toss up on whether they will eat this or not), reproductive organs, etc. Brain is also high in taurine so if you have a hard time getting hearts often, you can supplement with taurine supplements and/or a little more brain meat. Do you have any ethnic markets in your area? They are GREAT for getting the more unusual menu items.
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