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Post by xreinvention on Nov 11, 2011 10:59:32 GMT -5
I won't be saying anything about Squirt's diet unless asked, I don't see a need too, but I figured a good veterinarian would ask. The vet I had originally planned to take him too was all for raw and I really liked her. But spur of the moment break up with her fiance happened and she moved back to Canada somewhere, with little notice. This is the only other exotics veterinarian within a 3 hour distance of me, so needless to say, I'm kind of stuck with her regardless of if she likes me or not.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2011 11:04:25 GMT -5
My vet was quite against me switching Jack to raw. She was concerned about him choking on bones, salmonella for both him and I and the lack of balanced vitamins that a kibble offers. Hilarious, I know. At the time we were dealing with bladder stones in Jack and she was phoning several colleagues a day for advice on the next steps. One of her colleagues in California told her that ferrets fed whole mice see fewer, if any, bladder issues. She has since started to come around to the raw and asks every time we see her if Jack is eating mice yet. She seems to think the mice is the key to bladder health but I'm confident it's just the added moisture content of whole mice and raw provides the same benefits. Ultimately, I think she knows she wasn't taught enough about nutrition to take a strong stance against what I CHOOSE to feed my kids and any vet worth a dime should be willing to admit they don't know everything and investigate.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2011 11:40:31 GMT -5
Well, I will be going armed with a printout of "Bob Church's Observations..." that I printed out from here. Also my before and after pictures of Blanket (before and after oral melatonin), so that the vet can see that the stuff I've learned from the internet is helpful. Does anyone know of one really well-written article on des implants as good prophylactic treatment for adrenal that I could also bring?
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Post by miamiferret2 on Nov 11, 2011 12:00:33 GMT -5
@ Dawn (its Sonny's mom), print this out: www.cvcah.com/event.asp fyi, i personally emailed dr. gandolfi. he told me he's been using it for about 5 years. fyi, he says none of the ferrets that he has been implanting since they were kits have developed adrenal disease. i cant find the email right now. but, if you would like to email dr. gandolfi yourself, his email is crttrfxr@sbcglobal.net. i got his email from his veterinary practice website. general consensus is that you have to implant them early when they are kits and before 6 months of age. you have to do it before initial hormone surge. i also emailed Jerry Murray, DVM and he told me to implant my kit as soon as possible before the initial hormone surge. Doc Murray is on my FL on facebook so you should be able to friend him and send him a message. he is REALLY nice and he always answers all of my questions. Doc Murray is a ferret guru. as far as the adrenal vaccine is concerned, I'm on the fence. I won't do it until i get all the data. I don't think i'll ever do it actually bc I don't like the idea of triggering an immune response via a vaccine. I'll stick to deslorelin for now. if you want to talk to someone who is involved in the vaccine study talk to Barbara Carlson (she is the nice lady that you see singing a ferret song on that PBS "Ferrets-The Pursuit of Excellence" documentary). Barbara runs a shelter and her ferrets have been involved in the adrenal study conducted by Dr. Robert Wagner (the adrenal guru).
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Post by Heather on Nov 11, 2011 12:24:17 GMT -5
Here is the information that I have gathered so far. There are a couple of ongoing studies at the moment. As far as treating adrenal it has been a godsend for my guys (that is anecdotal ) As far as preventing adrenal....there have not been any studies that have been concluded at this point. The prognosis looks good but we will have to wait and see. The melatonin theory looked good too and made sense so I'm waiting to see the absolute outcome. I've got copies of a couple of theories and studies done on the intact ferret and superlorin (des implant) but because they're limited studies they raise as many questions as they answer. There are suppositions made but no conclusions. There is also a forum that has been created by some concerned ferret people who want more answers about the des implant and are pooling their resources. I believe most of these are breeders and people who would like to use the des implant on their intact ferrets. The formal study was closed after 2 yrs and no further papers were produced on the health and longevity of the ferrets or their ability to reproduce without issues to their health or the health of their kits. People just jumped in and began using the implants, so the powers that be (the manufacturers) concluded that it was much cheaper (for them) to just observe field studies (using yours and my ferrets as guinea pigs). Also because these ferrets were not followed (quite possibly destroyed after the study) there cannot be any long term conclusion as to the possible side effects or health issues www.journals.uzpi.cz/publicFiles/04441.pdf igitur-archive.library.uu.nl/vet/2009-0130-200624/AABS115-08.pdfferretdes.proboards.com/index.cgiGood luck in your search ciao
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2011 13:30:50 GMT -5
My first vet during Josie's wellness check commented on her fur, muscle tone, activity level and inquired about her food. When I told him about her raw diet he scoffed and I got a bit of a lecture about balanced nutrients, research, contamination and hazards. I told him that I'd done a fair amount of research myself and was comfortable this was the best way to feed. At Josie's next visit I brought along a list of her vittles as well as their nutrients and a comparison to kibble. He looked it over and admitted it looked like all bases were covered and I asked him to keep that with her records. At one of Josie's other visits for a blood test he commented that her raw diet gave her so much strength and vigor it took three people to hold her still! Later on he saw Fozzy and Faylene transform and he commented they were doing great for their age. So it seemed he was softening a bit towards a raw diet. Interesting enough his office was full of Science Diet products and ads. However I quit using his services when Fozzy started crashing from insulinoma and he wouldn't (his staff) allow us to come in without an appointment! The next vet was indifferent. But so was his approach to the problem Josie began having with her Juvenile Lymphoma. When he said he'd never heard of lupron & Melatonin to help Kosmo I went to a different vet. The vet I have now is PRO natural, sells what I consider a stepping stone to raw - chilled chubs of processed raw glop and promotes grain free kibble like Wellness. Its a bit difficult at times to be civil about promoting the obvious right diet, especially when vets are so thoroughly brainwashed and subsidized by kibble mfrs. But the proof is right in front of them and eons of evolution can't be wrong! Nutrition data is a good site to get nutrient data and couple that info with a list of your raw offerings is a good way to get vets truly open minded to review their thinking. Stick to your guns and do what's best for your ferrets! While a natural diet may not stem adrenal disease it certainly prevents insulinoma and believe me that is a horrible way to go!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2011 5:49:17 GMT -5
I went to a new vet yesterday (he'll be implanting all my ferrets with des). He acceded that a raw diet could be done right but doubted I'd get any worthwhile knowledge off the internet, especially a site not run by vets or nutritionists. He didn't want to discuss the details of my regime/supplements, but he did promise to treat them for salmonella when they get it. I just shut up. I want those implants. He said insulinoma was all genetic and didn't want to see the Bob Church article, saying he was on a vet forum and has read 'all that stuff' (though he didn't know the Bob Church name).
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Post by allie516 on Dec 9, 2011 6:13:22 GMT -5
Our Vet is a former breeder. He wasn't supportive, but he wasn't not supportive either. He recommended Mizuni (?), said that's what he used, and sort of left it at that. ~Kelli I think you are talking about Mazuri Pellets That is a high quality chinchilla food...Deffently never meant for a ferret! A chinchilla eats pellets, hey and twigs... I feel so bad for his poor ferrets! They do have a ferret form but I still dont think it is good enough... But that is just me Take a look www.mazuri.com/PDF/5M08-5EE3.pdf
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Post by Sherry on Dec 9, 2011 11:27:46 GMT -5
Yeah, pretty much cr*p in a bag for ferrets
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Post by allie516 on Dec 9, 2011 19:32:56 GMT -5
Yeah, pretty much cr*p in a bag for ferrets ;DSee I am of use! But I figured this is top quality for chinchillas that means its no good for ferrets.
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Post by lumene on Dec 9, 2011 21:53:01 GMT -5
I have no idea how I am going to explain a raw diet to my vet when I take Penelope and my cat Brazil in for an overall checkup and microchipping (yes they're indoor pets, an yes I am paranoid). While my vet is not adverse to wet food, raw may be another matter entirely.
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Post by Sherry on Dec 9, 2011 22:48:12 GMT -5
Educate yourself. It works.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2011 7:26:29 GMT -5
My vet was pretty surprised about feeding them raw, her only comment was doesn't the scent of blood make them more aggressive? I told her no, & demonstrated by letting Scarlet give me a lick on the cheek & snuggle. She said my ferrets were some of the nicest ferrets she'd seen & she's organised for me to come in & do two lectures a year for her class that she teaches. I also sent her photos of the before & after of Honey, who was bright yellow when I got her initially. She's now white, my vet is very impressed
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2011 7:44:28 GMT -5
Sherri, can I ask you how you developed the optimal raw plan? I.e. with the fhree different proteins and such. The vet I went to asked if the site were run by dieticians and I said, no, but I believe that the people running the site have consulted with vets. While this all makes complete sense to me to feed them this way and I would never go back, I'd like to be able to counter that if it ever comes up again.
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Post by Sherry on Dec 10, 2011 10:12:13 GMT -5
I didn't develop it. The old site was run by Guili, and Jennifer and Heather could likely tell you far more than I could. But the general idea is that a) ferrets are obligate carnivores, and b) only benefit from a more natural diet. They're natural diet would be smaller whole prey found in the area they live in, and taking a look at the diet for wild weasels with the variety they eat it just makes sense that they wouldn't get all the nutrients they need from one or two sources.
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