Moarisa's Switching Thread/Heather

[Heather]

I don't know if this works the same way as I am actually a cat owner (shame!) but I was referred to this site by a ferret-owning friend of mine! So, I guess I will apply and if someone doesn't mind the extra work of catering to a cat person (more shame!) I would really appreciate it :3

Name: Marisa
HF Forum Username: Moarisa

1. Where did you first learn about natural diets for cats?

My ferret-owner friend has mentioned raw diets to me several times, but only recently did I really start looking into it. The health benefits seem to be extensive, and I was actually a little ashamed of myself for never investigating different feeding options before. I guess most of my information has been gathered from around the internet.


2. Please describe the type of diet you would like assistance in switching your cat(s) to. Be sure to include if you are interested in feeding whole prey (live or frozen-thawed) and if you are wanting to FULLY switch to a natural diet or PARTIALLY. If you are unsure what kind of diet you want to put your cats on, please express that and we can help you find the best type of natural diet for your cat.

I would like to switch my cats to a prepared raw diet. Chicken is my preferred meat to offer, as it is the most easily available. I currently feed on a 2x/day schedule, and will likely continue to offer dry food in the morning, with the raw at night when I have more time to dedicate to making sure they are properly eating and such. I am absolutely open to suggestions about my plan if anyone has them.


3. Why are you interested in switching your cats to a natural diet?

From everything I have read, it is significantly better for their health overall, and my priority is always the health and happiness of my animals.


4. Do you understand that switching your cat to a natural diet can be a lengthy, arduous process? Its not an overnight switch. It can be a commitment of several weeks or even months. Your HF Mentor will be more then happy to assist you in switching your cat(s) to a natural diet, but you need to be equally as commited. If you aren't willing to tough out a potentially lengthy switching process, or if you have major life changes approaching (baby on the way, moving, starting school, getting married/divorced, etc) then it might be a better idea to wait on switching your cat's diet until you have more time. Are you willing to make the commitment?

I am absolutely willing to commit to this switch! Though I will be starting school next week, this is something I will make time for.


5. How many cats do you currently have? What are their names? Ages? Genders? Do they have any health problems? Are they overweight? Underweight? How long have you had each cat for?

I have two cats. The older one, Fluffy, is approx. 5 years old. I adopted her three years ago as a stray from the SPCA. She is a little on the underweight side, but that is due to hear lean build and generally isn't as big a deal with cats as it is with ferrets. The younger, Kitten, is about 3 years old, I adopted her at the same time as her mother. Her weight is quite average, with a very muscular build. Both cats are female and generally are quite healthy. They are allowed to roam outside during the day.


6. What diet do you currently feed your cats? (Please include all treats, supplements, etc)

I feed them Go! Natural, dry cat food in the morning with a mixture of dry Go!, wet FancyFeast and 1/4 tsp vegetable oil in the evening.


7. Have you ever tried to switch your cats to a natural diet in the past? If yes, what happened?

I haven't tried to completely convert them before, but I have offered pieces of raw to gauge their reactions. About a week ago I cut the end joints off the wing of a whole chicken I was cooking for dinner. The cats weren't interested in the whole wing tips, but when I cut them up into bite sized pieces and mixed it into their night meal they happily devoured them, bone and all.


8. What additional information about yourself or your cats would you like to share?

I am attending school starting next week for Veterinary Office and Animal assistance. My eventual plan is to become a Vet Tech. I have a ridiculous love of animals and will do whatever is necessary to make sure that they are happy.
As for my cats, Kitten has a hunting instinct like I've never seen and frequently comes home with 'treats' for me, despite the bells I force her to wear. Fluffy, having been a stray, is also quite an adept hunter. I believe that this will make the switch to raw a bit easier for them.


9. How often during the week do you have access to a computer?

Constantly, all the time


10. Please post a picture of each of your cats (if possible).

Oh, happily! This is my Fluffy and my other baby, Kitten

Like This Post

Hi
I'm Heather, and we're going to be working together for the next little while trying to convince your furbabies to change to an even healthier diet
I've been feeding a raw/natural diet for a little over 15 yrs. I have a small private rescue/sanctuary, just outside of Toronto, Canada where all ferrets turned into me are switched immediately over to a raw diet that consists of ground raw/whole meats or frankenprey/ and prey diet. At present every ferret eats this full range of diets. I don't keep kibbles in the house, if I can possibly avoid it. Too many little kibble addicts. All my furbabies are free roaming and have access to an outdoor play area that they can access at will. At present there are 10 little fuzzbutts who call this their permanent home.
To you this might all be rather irrelevent I do have kitties too . I've got Merlyn, evil black kitty who came to me as a 2yr old shelter fuzz who came into the shelter after he had been hit by a car. Several surgeries later, he came to me, eating what ever food was given to the shelter cats at the time. Merlyn switched without any grief...rather similar to how you described feeding your own wee ones. Merlyn is now 15 as is my MIL's 2 cats who came to live with us over a year ago. They too, are raw fed but I don't get the credit for that, I just helped my MIL switch them when they were about 5 or 6. My rather troubled switch was a 12 yr old kibble addicted siamese, Samurai. He was a problem child and it took me about a year to switch. He has long since gone to the bridge but not before seeing 22 summers. So, with a bit of percerferrance I think we can pull this off.
Now, you've started it right and that's how I was going to suggest you feed them. Get rid of the kibbles and feed only moist to start. The kibbles isn't doing your kitties any favours. So, first things first. Dump the kibbles, especially if your wee ones are eating moist without any problems. Now you mention only feeding chicken, that's a poor choice for a kitties' diet. It's a great choice for one of the proteins, but I'm going to suggest that you choose another couple of proteins on top of the one that you're comfortable with. It's not that difficult. You can feed beef, turkey, pork, lamb....the supply is endless. We will start with one protein but depending on how you want to feed we will be adding another couple of proteins in our journey to your little ones diet.
Now, I'm going to sign off and pm you to let you know that you have a mentor. I will be looking forward to helping you start your raw feeding adventure ;D If you have any questions please feel free to post them and we will discuss your concerns
ciao

[moarisa]

Thankyou so much! I wasn't expecting that to happen so promptly.
You're from the Toronto area? I have a friend going to school there, and my family is from London! Such a small world

10 ferrets, that's amazing! Just from my experience with the one fuzzbutt I know, that sounds like a lot of work!

I know that kibble is generally considered to be hellfood, for various reasons, but the brand I feed (Go! Natural, Chicken Turkey Duck) is comparatively quite top-tier. It contains no grains of any kind and is mostly made up of animal meats, the first five ingredients being Chicken Meal, de-boned Chicken, de-boned Turkey, Turkey Meal and Chicken Fat, with 50% Protein and 21% Fat. Sorry, I don't want to sound like a pet food commercial I know that it isn't ideal, what about the wet/dry/water dinner being switched to breakfast and raw for dinner? I currently water it down quite significantly to get more water in them, especially with the warmer summer weather, and they love it. Since I've started giving that daily they don't even seem as interested in just kibble anymore, Kitten especially. Fluffy is rather slim, so I want to keep her eating as much and regularly as possible.

Now, I'm not currently completely setup for raw feeding I think. I have found a few recipes (Here) and (Here) both which recommend using at least partial amounts of ground meat, but I do not yet own a grinder. How vital is it? I also haven't found a butcher who can regularly supply me with organ meats, I was planning to call around more when I know exactly what I'll need so that I can communicate that to them clearly.

I guess my biggest concern, and a large source of anxiety for me in these pre-planning stages, is making sure my fluffs are getting a balanced diet. I've never had to really care before, the kibbles did it for me, but now that I'm paying attention and being responsible it's a little daunting. I don't want to make this switch with the intention of helping their health and end up making them very ill because I missed an important nutrient or some such.
So, a variety of meats is important. I guess, in addition to a grinder, I should look into getting a scale for accurate portion sizes. I really hoped to prepare food en-masse and freeze it pre-portioned to make things easier, is this a possibility? What is your opinion on a 'recipe' which is easily packaged and frozen, and also balanced enough to make sure that my fluffs are getting everything they need at every meal? If a percentage of it should be organ meats, 5% according to the one thread I saw in another section, what percentage of that should be heart, kidneys etcetc? Will I need to add supplements? If you don't mind drafting a recipe with me I would really appreciate it.
Thanks again for your help

[Heather]

Hi there
Don't sweat it. Years ago, I was where you were. When I took the leap of faith and started raw feeding...there was about one site that offered assistance and if you asked about recipes and balancing you didnt' get an answer. I remember how scared I was...afraid that I would mess it up, hurt my wee ones.
So, first...you don't need a grinder. Some kitties are more than willing to eat chunked meats...depends on the kitty. When I switched my Samurai, he was not into it, so I got a hand grinder. My MIL's kitties were into commercial grind and at 14 yrs I wasn't going to change that so that's what they get lol. The variety is good so it works for me Once you get into it, I think you will find that feeding totally raw is as easy as opening a tin of food. When I was just feeding the two cats, I would make up bowls of food (the amounts needed) and stick them into the freezer and pull them out the night before I needed them. In really hot days, I would just take the food out and they would have frozen fare. It would thaw out through the day, and they could have their food fresh just like they liked it
How about you tell me what recipes you think you might like to use, and we will discuss them and see if we can use them as they are or change them a bit to accomodate your wee ones needs.
Talk at you later
ciao

[moarisa]

That sounds like a good plan, the ones I linked in my previous post are the main ones I've been looking at.
This is the first one I saw, and can be found here;
www.catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood#The_Ingredients



per 3 pounds of raw meat/bones/skin.

1 cup water (or, preferably, more if your cat will eat it with more water)

2 eggs - use the yolk raw but lightly cook the white (see update below)

2000 mg (minimum) wild salmon or fish oil (a good source of essential fatty acids - I often use 4,000 - 6,000 mg)

400 IU (268 mg) Vitamin E (powdered E in capsules is the easiest to use)

50 mg Vitamin B-complex (capsules or tablets)

2,000 mg taurine (use powdered - either in capsules or loose)

3/4 tsp Morton Lite salt with iodine when using chicken parts - see below** (Contains potassium and sodium. Make sure that it contains iodine.)

Liver - If using ground rabbit (which includes liver) from wholefoods4pets.com, do not add additional liver. If using chicken legs, thighs or a whole chicken carcass minus the organs, add 4 ounces of chicken livers per 3 lb of meat/bones/skin.

Fiber


The other one is on a slightly larger scale for meat, and adds supplements at a significantly higher ratio. It can be found below
www.catnutrition.org/recipes.html


2 kg [4.4 pounds] raw muscle meat with bones (chicken thighs and drumsticks or, better, a whole carcass of rabbit or chicken amounting to 2 kg; if you don't use a whole carcass, opt for dark meat like thighs and drumsticks from chicken or turkey and remove/don't use 20 to 25 percent of the bone; if using whole rabbit, which has a higher bone-to-meat ratio than chicken, dilute the extra bone by adding another 20 to 25 percent of plain muscle meat and skin and fat from rabbit, chicken, or turkey)

400 grams [14 oz] raw heart (best not to use use beef heart; if no heart is available, substitute with 4000 mg Taurine)

200 grams [7 oz] raw liver (don't use beef liver; if you can't find appropriate liver, you can substitute 40,000 IU of Vitamin A and 1600 IU of Vitamin D--but try to use real liver rather than substitutes)

NOTE: If you cannot find the heart or liver and decide to substitute with the Taurine/Vitamin A and D, then remember to REPLACE the missing amount of organ meat with the equivalent amount of muscle meat. In other words, if you cannot find heart, you add another 400 grams of the meat/bones. If you can't find the liver, add another 200 grams of meat/bone.

16 oz [2 cups] water

4 raw egg yolks (use eggs from free-range, antibiotic-free chickens if you can)

4 capsules raw glandular supplement, such as, for example, multigland supplement by Immoplex.

4000 mg salmon oil (see note at bottom of recipe*)

800 IU Vitamin E ("dry E" works well)

200 mg Vitamin B-50 complex

1.5 tsp. Lite salt (with iodine)


I would like to go with a sort of middle ground between them. I'm not sure which vitamins it's possible to overdo, but general consensus seems to be that Taurine can't be overdone, and in fact is usually under-supplied so I'm going to err on the side of caution and double the amount of chicken heart instead of adding a taurine supplement.
I like the idea of using eggs, my cats seem to like them. One recipe suggests cooking them, while the other says to leave them raw but only use the yolk. What are the risks involved with using fully raw egg? Do you think it will pose a problem to a cats digestion? I would rather use a whole egg, rather than just the yolk. Is this appropriate?
Neither recipe emphasizes using different protein sources, how important is it to do? Does the egg possibly supply enough additional protein? I know they are a very good source of it. They both mention rabbit, but it is absolutely impossible for me to find at a decent price, and cost is a bit of an issue. I've heard lots of negative things about beef and fish, so I would like to avoid them.
I didn't buy a grinder, I'm really hoping my girls jump into this new diet headfirst. Hopefully they don't surprise me and completely protest


I actually already ordered the supplements, they should arrive within a week or so, and I was fortunate enough to find a chicken heart and liver supplier, they they are a bit pricey.

So, looking at the recipes..

For my first batch, I am planning to make a decent amount as a test run for myself and my girls.

5kg of chicken, probably whole carcasses, chunked as much as possible. I'll leave the bone in, possibly breaking it into manageable pieces. If it isn't enough meat, I will add some thighs.

I'm going with 2kg of chicken heart, to make sure I'm not too low on taurine

1/2 kg chicken liver

5 cups or so of water, depending on texture. I don't want it to be too soupy.

10 eggs

10 glandular capsules

10,000 mg salmon oil

2,000IU Vitamin E

500mg B-50 Complex

Is there anything I'm overdoing? Do you know which vitamins are possible to overdose? I'm very concerned that I might accidentally poison them

[Heather]

Not bad...I don't supplement at least not a whole lot. I too, add more hearts though you're amount may be a bit high, especially as your guys are new to raw (could result in loose stinky poops). Some cats love hearts and that's a good thing. I would be tempted to add 1 kg of chicken hearts instead of 2 kg in the ratio of whole meat and bones or any heart for that matter. Instead of using a whole lot of artificial supplements which can offer at any point contamination or put in components that might not sit well with your kitties. One of the biggest problems is with the use of soya as a filler component in many supplements. They say it's harmless but many of our carnivores and a lot of people are developing allergies to this particular "natural" component. The more protein elements that you offer the less you have to supplement. I will lean more to that to cover the elements you need naturally. My kitties get duck, goose, rabbit, beef, pork, venison, bison, turkey and lamb. You will note the absence of chicken...they won't touch it as my dog won't eat it either. They also get salmon and small fish (this is occasionally as I don't like to feed a lot of fish (it's not a natural part of a cats diet anyway but they do like it so they get it occasionally) I supplement with small marine fish oil, turmeric and dasuquin (2 of the kitties are arthritic)
You mention not feeding beef, why? All my guys, dog, kitties and ferrets eat beef and I've had no problems with beef except my one pyrenees was sensitive. He could only eat it once a week, any more than that would cause itchies but he was so allergic to corn it was suggested that this might actually be the issue.
Eggs....I feed the whole thing. It is the most balanced meal you can offer when the shell is fed as well. We say with ferrets to offer raw eggs no more than 3 x during a week. I would say the same thing for kitties (though they seem to metabolis it better than the ferrets) If your guys like it raw, then feed it that way, you can cook them too...it just changes the components a bit Again, considering the amount of meat and bones, I would be tempted to use 1 whole egg for every kg of meat and bone. So, using your recipe...I would use 5 eggs. Dry the egg shells and grind them to a powder, if your little kitties aren't into eating bone just yet, you can give 1/2 tsp of ground egg shell for every 8 oz of meat.
I wouldn't feed salt at all as a supplement. That's just me but they really don't need it as they will get their sodium needs from the blood they drink.
The glandulars....if your feeding liver, kidneys and other organ meats you should be ok and not need to supplement but that's entirely up to you.
Take care of B vits, they build up in the tissue and I honestly don't know how much you need. Again, I cover all this by feeding multiple protein sources and leave it at that.
Water....you may need some but probably not as much but it's better to see how much your wee ones are willing to deal with. I add some water to soupy but I don't bother with whole meats and prey. When you're feeding meat you will be surprised how little your little carnivores drink and how much more they void out water. When they're eating meat they're no longer kept on the point of perpetual dehydration. For the first time, they will hydrated and in a manner that they were supposed to
These are just a few suggestions and are of course open to discussion. Looking forward to discussing this further with you
ciao

[moarisa]

With the different kinds of meat, offering a variety of protein sources does seem like a good idea, but I don't think it would adequately cover all the supplements.
For the glandular supplements, because I'll be using prepared carcasses rather than preparing them whole on my own, I'm missing out on the benefits of real throid, pancreas etc.
The salmon oil is to replace the Essential Fatty Acids, since I'm not using brain or eyes.
According to a couple sources, Vitamin E is slows down oxidation of the meat which inevitably occurs once it's cut up or ground, and since I'm planning to store my food for up to a month at a time that seemed pretty important.
Though there isn't a specific reason listed in the recipe I was following most closely, the creator indicated that B-50 is to make up for the nutrients that would be found in naturally-raised free-range animals, which will be lacking in the mass-produced kind I will be using. If that's something that can be overdosed though, I'll definitely reduce the amounts to maybe half?
The importance of salt seems to lie at least partially in the added iodine. Since a significant amount of my meat will be chicken, and pre-butchered, will the salt content still be high enough that I can cut the salt out?

When it comes to the hearts, taurine deficiency is something I've heard a lot of horror stories about, so I'd prefer to err on the side of caution and use too much rather than too little, unless it's something that can be overdone? Are they hard to eat, or is there a problem with having too much, besides possible loose stools? What about starting at a lower amount for my first batch and then increasing it as I go? Apparently taurine easily breaks down with prolonged feeding as well. The original recipe, scaled to my amounts, calls for 1kg of hearts, which amounts to about 20,000mg, and an additional 20,000mg of taurine supplement, which I've opted to exclude in favor of the natural source.


I have heard a lot of terrible things about fish, there is actually a list in the faq of the second recipe I linked, so that's something I will be avoiding. As for beef, it was specifically the hearts I was advised against, as they can be too rich for many cats, but if you feed the meat frequently without any problem then I'll include some of that as well. What kind of cut do you recommend? Should I just chunk it up like the chicken and divide it equally between the potions or have some meals as entirely chicken and some entirely beef?
The eggs seem to be in there just as an added source of fantastic protein, but I agree that 10 seems like quite a lot. How about an even half dozen? That's a fantastic idea will the egg shells, I hadn't even thought about using them. I do suspect that bone is going to be my fighting point.
I hadn't thought about soy, that's a good point. I just checked the supplements I went for and 3/4 are labelled as 'soy free', the last being the salmon and I think that should be safe.

The amount of water I will happily decrease, probably just go by texture. Enough water to keep it all moist but not soupy. I'm already mentally trying to prepare for the stool changes, so that I'm not alarmed when I clean their box. How significantly can I expect their water intake decrease? Do they still drink standing water semi-regularly?

I just realized that I don't have a fiber source, what's your opinion on that? Both recipes I've seen recommend 'psyllium', but I don't even know what that is. Is there a good vegetable alternative?

I have to pick up my hearts on friday, so I'll do all my food prep that night. Do you think that it would be a good idea to start phasing in the raw slowly, the same as you would when switching to a new type of kibble, so that their digestive systems can adapt to it?

Thanks again for all your help, it's great to have someone experienced to bounce ideas off of!

[Heather]

Phasing will depend on your cats. Some just go right at it and I let them. Cats are so picky that if they decide they like their new food you just let them have it. You may want to add some pumpkin or squash to represent the fur and indedibles that you won't be getting by feeding frankenprey (something raw feeders forget when they feed this way). It will also control some of the possible loose stools that may occur by initial switches and imbalances (about 1 tsp per 8oz of meat). I found the easiest way to switch cats who are basically receptive to chunks is to let them think it's a treat. With Merlyn, I gave him small bits as I was preparing his dinner (actually at the time it was my dinner) There were chunks of steak that I was trimming and I let him have it. He would "steal" it and then come back for more. For the first few days I don't think he ever thought that he was eating raw....he was just "stealing" my dinner. I did create a monster though because he would stand on his back legs and flip the meat off the cutting board while I was cutting it if I wasn't careful...not real smart...I was always afraid that I would cut his foot by accident.
Psyllium....don't touch it. Now I know why the water content of your recipes are so high . Psyllium is a bulking agent....(feed pumpkin or squash instead) Psyllium is often used by humans to add bulk to their diet (think metamucil). For a human you mix this with water, then drink about 5, 8oz glasses of water. You will never in a million years convince a cat (any carnivore for that matter) to drink enough water to "not" cause a blockage. It becomes a solid mass if enough water isn't consumed. It does have it's place but should never be given without the consult of a trained homeopath or vet.
If you want to add that much heart, do it gradually, waiting to see what your kitties reaction both in acceptance and output will be. Up it as you see fit. My kitties love beef heart. My dog eats a whole beef heart for a meal. The stools will be darker but there shouldn't be an issue. You may want to trim some of the hard fat that is often left on the hearts. This might cause some digestive issues with your kitties.
There is no problem with salmon oil, I just prefer using smaller fish oils as there are less chance of outside contaminants. I've used it a number of times without any issue, the same with vit e. I know that olive oil offers some stomach (IBD) benefits in ferrets but I don't know if it offers the same solutions for cats.
Water decrease will be substancial, to the point that they don't appear to be drinking at all. They will and still need water it just drops that much. I know this is a common issue raised by people who switch any pet off kibbles. You're just not aware as to how much kibble dries their bodies out until you stop feeding it.
Sound good? talk at you later
ciao

[moarisa]

Hello!
Sorry for my absence, I started college and got super busy.
The weekend before class started, I made my first batch of food. My vitamins, conveniently, didn't arrive in time so I made it without them. I'll use some next time though.

I used a bit over 5kg of chicken, most of it was whole, but there were a couple legs to make up the difference as I bought them all and it wasn't enough. I bought the extra because I intended to cut out the weight-bearing leg bones. I also used just a little over 1kg of heart, about 1.2 or so, and 0.5kg of liver, most of which I blended into a paste. About .04kg of heart I kept aside and chopped into itty bitty pieces. I then chopped up the chickens, man was that ever a time-consuming task. At the end I mixed everything together and portioned approx 1/2cup portions into little plastic baggies to be frozen. While I was making, I offered bits to my girls to gauge their interest. Both were quite pleased with the meat, Fluffy wasn't especially keen on chewing the bones, but she did it with some time. Kitten went right at it, no hesitation. They both were happy with the liver/heart paste.

So, I've pretty much converted them. They need a little coaxing, I have been adding a bit of their wet or dry to the raw to get them interested, but Kitten specifically goes for the meat once she starts eating. Fluffy will need a little more time I think before she has the same response.
Easiest conversion ever! I have a new appreciation for my cats.

Thanks so much for your help!

[Heather]

Congratulations....that was well done ;D ;D
Hey...I didn't really do anything but be here, that was all your doing You are going to incorporate more than just chicken yes? It's really simple now because all you do is do the same thing but use a different protein source.
Are you finished with this thread or do you want me to leave it open for a bit so you can finish the switch?
ciao