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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2011 0:33:58 GMT -5
We'll see who has the last word
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2011 1:20:25 GMT -5
The FML just came out ;D Just to clarify, my post is in response to the post below me
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Post by Sherry on Sept 25, 2011 10:26:43 GMT -5
Saw those ;D
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Post by joan on Sept 25, 2011 11:15:22 GMT -5
Just saw today's FML, as a couple of my kit owners sent it to me. Great post, Jackie!
I would question that all kibble fed ferrets will inevitably develop insulinoma, as that would only be true if all ferrets carried the genetics which would predispose them to it if consistently fed a high carbohydrate diet. That may well be true with the early neuters and privately bred ferrets with a background of fancy colors, but it doesn't appear to be true of sable ferrets from a background free of fancy colors.
Until 2005, all my ferrets and the kits I sold were kibble fed, although they did get chicken necks on a regular basis to keep their teeth clean. Until the low carbo diets were available, I fed a mix of Totally Ferret and the Ferret Store Original Formula. None of those ferrets ever developed insulinoma, which I would have expected if the cause was strictly nutritional.
Also, my niece had a couple MF ferrets in the 1990s...one was a light silver who roaned to a DEW by the time she was 3, the other was a medium sable with a light brown nose. Both were fed crap food, sugary treats, and kept in artificial light for long hours. Both were very healthy until they were around 7 years old, at which time the DEW ferret developed adrenal symptoms and was almost totally bald a year later...her vet told her that was just old age and nothing could be done. The sable lived another year and died in her sleep with no apparent health problems.
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Post by Heather on Sept 25, 2011 11:33:26 GMT -5
You know Joan, I have to wonder about the farm ferret breedings (don't we all ) but I've been rescuing for years and I'm finding that the serious diseases are striking earlier and harder than they did when I first started. I had farm ferrets lasting well into their 7th year without developing serious illnesses (I can't say that for the silvers which DEW out....I loose them young). I've got my older group (there's only 3 of them left, the youngest being Thor (breeders)at 5 or 6 and the oldest being Odin (breeders) at about 9. My other cage is made up of younger fuzzes.....Fun-Go (DEW insulinoma), Lady Natasha (DEW adrenal), Boris (sable Waardenburg respiratory issues), Lady Sprite (sandy adrenal), Captain Jack (adrenal, cardio myleopathy). The average age of this group is 5, Lady Sprite is the last of my old timers in that cage and she's about 7 or 8. They're all ill with the big nasty diseases that plague ferrets and they're all young (at least in my opinion) Boris and Natasha are 3 and 4 yrs old and have been raw fed all their lives (their previous owner fed them raw). I realize this is partly the fault of breeding for colour and has progressed at a rapid rate in the last 10 yrs. Most of my first ferrets were all fed kibble and some really lousy kibble too. Some lived to be a ripe old age...Mad Max who was 9, Babushka who was 10, Loki who was 8....Babushka was only able to take advantage of raw for the last 18 months of her life....so raw other than giving her a special boost really didn't factor into her life (she may not have got those last 18 months if she had continued on kibble as she developed a new zest for life once switched) She passed on due to old age, she was a gorgeous dark sable. I think that even with a raw diet you can't fix what the farm breeders have created but you can give a higher quality of life, and you may be able to postpone the inevitable disease . ciao
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2011 12:34:03 GMT -5
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Post by joan on Sept 25, 2011 12:49:37 GMT -5
There is no doubt in my mind that ferrets are developing the typical ferret diseases at earlier ages and it hits them harder when it does. This is a direct result of doubling and redoubling on the genetic factors which are responsible. Sadly, this is also true of the privately bred ferrets.
The difference seems to be that the early neuters are developing adrenal disease as early as 5 months old, and insulinoma at 2-3 years of age if they are fed a high carb kibble diet. Using a law carb kibble or preferably switching them to a raw/whole prey diet seems to prevent or at least delay the development of insulinoma.
In contrast, the privately bred ferrets (late neuters) seem to develop adrenal and insulinoma at later ages, However, various forms of cardio disease and lymphoma, along with kidney disease, seem to be increasing and developing at earlier ages, to the point that the development of early disease (ie, by 4-5 years old) seems to be almost epidemic in those ferrets with a strong BM/BRM background. Those health problems are developing at even earlier ages, as well, as the genetics are doubled and redoubled on since carriers are not being removed from the breeding population.
For the past few years, I've been getting 15-20 emails a year from people looking for ferrets which are not related to the show bred ferrets as they are devastated at paying several hundred dollars for a kit which they expected to live at least 7-8 healthy years...and then losing it at less than 6 years of age. Several have commented that their MF have been healthier and lived longer than their ferrets from show breeders.
So far this year I have received 37 emails from people wanting a ferret from anonshow background and many mentioned specifically that they want one with little or no BM/BRM background, so the pet owners are definitely beginning to see the connection between breeding for color and poor health. It's so sad to read these emails since I'm too far away to be of much help to most of them.
Jackie, I seriously doubt that Bob has researched pedigrees of affected ferrets in depth. I had more than 40 years of experience in analyzing pedigrees before I began breeding ferrets, so it only took me a couple years to decide that I would avoid breeding ferrets with a background of fancy colors.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2011 12:49:55 GMT -5
Wow, thanks for that info Joan that is truly sad. I'm dealing with an early adrenal here (Pixie, not even 3). It's horrible and heart breaking. Is it true, that if a ferret (even farm) is fed nothing but raw meat, they will never have insulinoma? Does the genetic aspect just make ferrets more predisposed to insulinoma (maybe more sensitive to sugars)? One thing that Bob mentioned was the possibility of feeding some nutrient along side the carbs that counteracts the effects (by maybe binding to the sugars). Is it possible that the foods used to contain ingredients that they don't today that helped to alter the affects of a high carb diet?
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Post by joan on Sept 25, 2011 13:24:14 GMT -5
I've never heard of a ferret who was raised on a natural diet, from a dam who was fed a natural diet, developing insulinoma, but that doesn't mean it's never occurred...just that I've never heard of it. My own belief is that the earlier the farm ferrets are taken off a kibble diet, the better chances they have of not developing it at all.
And, yes, the genetic aspect just makes them predisposed to develop it but it clearly can be prevented or at least postponed if fed the correct diet.
I don't have the knowledge to comment on Bob's idea, but it sounds feasible if such a nutrient exists. One factor present in today's food (both human and pet) that didn't exist until recently is the presence of GM modified grains in animal feed and human food which have been proven to cause cancer and other diseases. The US is one of only 3 countries which allows this.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2011 15:21:45 GMT -5
Awesome post Jackie! ;D
Also, Joan... I have always wondered why, when visiting private breeder's sites, their rainbow bridge section is full of ferrets who have died unexpectedly or from something that's supposed to be rare and always at the age of 6 or younger. It always bothered me because they are supposed to be healthier than farm ferrets, but over the past 3 years, I have learned otherwise. Thank you for actually breeding for health, Joan. I have decided from now on to only own rescues and your ferrets (if you allow me to of course ;D).
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Post by Heather on Sept 25, 2011 17:34:55 GMT -5
I was absolutely heartbroken when Fun-Go came down with insulinoma. He had been raw fed (prey fed) from the time he was about 9 months old. He is an RC ferret but and this one is a big but....he's a DEW. I've had no success with DEWs, they've brought me nothing but grief, no matter what I've done. Lymphomas, insulinoma, cancers....all dying before they've reached their 7th birthdays. Lady "B" the stubborn little lady that she is, will probably make her 7th birthday unless her adrenal suddenly goes aggressive. Fancies.....it's all about breeding for that colour ciao
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2011 17:49:20 GMT -5
Aw those stories are so sad:( i hope the egg helps with decreasing the age of deseases and things because it is better for them. i am so sorry for your losses
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Post by darlene on Oct 6, 2011 1:55:12 GMT -5
Sometimes I want to go to vet school instead of med school just so I can say "I AM A VET - Raw is safe. Now STFU." I like that
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Post by darlene on Oct 6, 2011 2:07:14 GMT -5
Joan,I have to ask what does BM/BRM stand for?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2012 17:13:37 GMT -5
Joan,I have to ask what does BM/BRM stand for? Black Mitt/ Black Roan Mitt. At least that's my understanding of it. Anyway, Blake had his first egg today. Poor bloke is getting to know the litter box really well today. he ate the whole thing in like 5 minutes.
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