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Post by Sherry on Feb 10, 2011 1:53:37 GMT -5
Can I sell the tickets? ;D
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2011 2:04:38 GMT -5
sure why not?!?! Then we can donate proceeds to various Ferret rescues!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2011 2:09:06 GMT -5
Haha! It's all for a good cause, right?
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Post by dreamsome on Feb 10, 2011 9:53:23 GMT -5
giggle! the only thing i'm finding humorous here is how you're comparing humans to pets. "People need to get over that stupid alpha crap"...... www.canismajor.com/dog/alpha1.html. why don't you take a look at the link? it sure sounds like you need to educate yourself of the way animals work! but i'm supposing with your logic, it's alright, or even "acceptable" for a dog to protect its resources, snapping at your hand or growling at you when you try to touch its food? these animals (who have become PETS while in the home and under the care of a human) have no need to be aggressive towards US while they're eating. "don't bite the hand that feeds you," i'm sure you've heard this statement, no? it doesn't matter what animal we're talking about here. aggression may be a natural instinct but that's for ANIMALS out in the WILD. there should be no reason i'm afraid or hesitant to move the bowl my ferret's eating from/add food to the bowl all because someone thinks this aggression is normal and ought to be left alone. yeah, i don't think so. i'm sharing MY experience and making my suggestion on this post because this is what worked for ME.
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Post by kainslie1 on Feb 10, 2011 10:07:59 GMT -5
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Post by goingpostal on Feb 10, 2011 14:27:54 GMT -5
Sorry, my dogs aren't wolves, and they clearly know I'm not a dog so I'll pass on growling at them or forcing them to "submit" to me. That whole "alpha" crap is crap because it's all based on very flawed studies where they threw a bunch of strange adult wolves together, a normal wolf pack is a family unit. Honestly that link is a joke, hold staring contests with your dog to ensure you are in charge? I know I'm in charge, I control their entire life, including all the resources and I train them to behave.
I also didn't say it was acceptable for a animal to snap at a person, I said it was normal, and it is. It's not dominance in any form. Yes pets are domesticated, that doesn't mean their natural behavior is gone, my ferrets scratch, dig, nip, kill small prey, is all that unacceptable dominance? Should I alpha roll and scruff them into little stuffed animals instead?
BTW, my male pit bull was a resource guarder when I adopted him, now I can take away his food bowl, toys, take things out of his mouth, etc, and no force or fear involved. He isn't dominant, he's actually a very soft submissive dog and me trying to be BIG BAD BOSS probably would have made things 10x worse and got me bit, not to mention completely lose the trust and relationship we have.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2011 14:45:36 GMT -5
I can understand both sides of the story - everyone is entitled to their beliefs and that's why this place is so wonderful - because we accept all people, regardless of their beliefs.
*tries to diffuse situation* :-)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2011 16:35:43 GMT -5
yup what Jackie said! everyone has opinions and beliefs...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2011 17:19:39 GMT -5
Im with jackie and rose, increase the peace guys but just a my two sence thing- not that I am trying to fight either side/theory (I use respect training with Tequila, its not really being his 'dominant' but more speaking his 'language')
Buut, yea-- just as a two sence thing: If you use the simplistic example of Dog1 is a dominant dog, Dog2 is a dominant dog- How would Dog1 prove to Dog2 that he is *more* dominant? It would generally start with an eye lock and end in a fight... personally I wouldn't want to get in a fight with a dog-- if i was in the position of dog2 I would recognize the behavior and avert my eyes, then (being that im not a dog- i am a trainer and I want the positive end result) i would reward dog1 when he *stops* said bad behavior.. I will say though, in all my years of training dogs, working & volunteering in kennels & shelters there is no doubt in my mind that you can get yourself into trouble by discounting dominance body language. I dont think that training should be done through force or fear - training should be done through respect and positive reinforcement BUT you do have to understand and take into account the 'language' of the animal you are trying to train, then you have to use it. Its like if I was speaking to you in a different language but my tone and actions scared the crap out of you, if you think I can kill you it is likely you are going to listen- though you would be more my slave than my friend. However if I was working with you, respecting you and speaking your language- you would want to care for me because I care for you.
(clarification purposes: just read some of the articles- when I mean speak their language I dont mean that I growl at my dog or do this dominance roll thing, I just mean that I know how to read his body language and I react to it- never in a forceful, violent or scary way. Positive reinforcement- he does good he gets treated/rewarded, he does bad he gets crated/taken out of play-time activities)
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Post by dreamsome on Feb 10, 2011 19:02:16 GMT -5
let me jump back in here and explain myself before i look like an idiot! i responded to this post, letting the questioner (along with everyone else, if you will) know what i did that worked. it was the first thing that i thought to do, and i was never ever mean to him, shook him or hurt him. not that anyone is saying i did, but i don't see anything wrong with what i did. he's not traumatized, he loves me and i love him. i didn't want to get bit, so in my eyes i showed him that i was the dominant figure and it was not alright.
i did not appreciate goingpostal's direct reply to me as i felt she could have been a heck of a lot more tactful, especially after making that joke relating to me! the joking was unappreciated and undeserved. i've seen that generally everyone is very respectful of each other but felt she definitely could have expressed herself in a more mature manner.
as far as the link, i should have copy and pasted what point i was trying to make. i did not read the whole thing and didn't see the part about training tactics. this is the part i was referring to: "Dogs are animals, not human beings. They are pack animals by nature. Every pack has a leader, known as the alpha animal, who dominates and leads the other members of the pack. The alpha is the boss who makes decisions for the entire pack. Usually the pack will have an alpha male and an alpha female. All the other members of the pack form a hierarchy of dominance and submission where everyone has a place."- i really didn't read any further than this. i don't have dogs of my own, but my parents have two boston terriers that i love dearly and i used to watch cesar milan and try to use some of those tactics when i was trying to walk one of them. i do not believe in "going to the level" of these dogs or trying to be the "alpha" dog. but from my experiences (and from watching tv shows- thank god for the entertainment!) all packs of animals have a hierarchy. when i had rats, i would watch them hold each other down, trying to establish dominance. i've seen it in my parents' dogs, my sisters dogs. granted, their method is a bit more ugly. i've never witnessed it in my own ferrets, as vienna was never a "dominant" girl and they took to each other right away. when london started snorting at me with his things, the only method i thought to do was scruff him, like i said. he's a big, chubby lover now and respects me as much as i respect him. there's nothing but love and good intentions over on my end!
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Post by goingpostal on Feb 10, 2011 19:43:31 GMT -5
Dreamsome, maybe you need to go back and read what was posted. I never directly attacked or even quoted you, I just felt it should be pointed out that animals resource guarding has zero to do with dominance. Then we had some fun with the much overused idea of "alpha" applied to every behavior under the sun. Sure animals have hierachies, but we aren't animals. And dogs live in whatever enviroment we place them in, not a natural pack in any state, one dog may be "dominant" in one situation, and the other dog in another. It's not set in stone, and a truly confident "dominant" dog doesn't need to prove themselves or fight their way to the top, that's usually the sign of a lower, status seeking animal. My male dog is the more submissive of my two and the more likely to start a fight.
I can tell you that I have never dealt with food aggression with my crew, I've taken in ferrets who supposedly bit and couldn't be litter trained and never had those issues with them. They weren't being dominant, they were being typical caged, underexercised, bored bratty ferrets. Unfortunately many people overreact to bad behavior, even me, four years ago I tried scruffing my biting kit, it only encouraged her to come right back at me worse or just to stay away from me altogether. All the hissing and holding her down in the world didn't do squat, I decided to make friends with her rather than fight her and she quit nailing me.
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Post by bluemoose on Feb 10, 2011 19:47:53 GMT -5
Well as has been stated, everyone has their own opinions and I don't think it's necessarily right to say someone else's theories on animal training are wrong. No one knows exactly how animals think and communicate. There are some theories that are considered outdated and the dominance theory is becoming one of those. However, I don't believe that means there is no dominance in the animal world. Maybe the word dominance just has a bad connotation now because of the dominance theory so a different word would be more acceptable.
I wrote and posted this on a another thread the other day but most of it is relevant to this convo. My personal opinions on the matter. Sorry to those who have already read it =P
What was once misunderstood about wolves is how the "Alpha" wolf becomes the pack leader. It's rarely through battle and contest. L. David Mech (renowned wolf expert) now prefers to use the terms "breeding male" or "breeding female" because that is really what determines who leads that pack. Wolves only compete for dominance when thrown together in an unnatural setting where unrelated wolves are made to assimilate into one pack (such as in captivity).
Once the pack leaders are established, either naturally or unnaturally, there is certainly dominance. Everyone has a place in the pack, from the top dog to the bottom dog. However, the best leaders and the ones who lead the longest, don't rule with an iron paw. The "Alpha roll" is not natural. Subservient wolves choose to roll over for the leader as a sign of respect and trust. It's like they're saying, "Look. I'm harmless and helpless. I'm exposing my vulnerable belly to you because I trust you not to harm me." Scientists once thought the Alpha was forcing the subservient to roll over but more observation has shown this is not the case. This act can be seen in domestic dogs. A fearful, insecure dog isn't going to roll over for a belly rub but a trusting dog who is secure in his trust of humans, is happy to expose his belly. Forcing a dog to put himself in a vulnerable position when he doesn't feel he's safe is asking to get bit.
Dogs are, of course, no longer wolves. However, by bringing them into our homes, we become their pack. Even domestic dogs that are living "in the wild" without owners, will form packs. Dogs are not that far removed from wolves and still hold a pack mentality. The mistake people make is in thinking they need to force their dog to be subservient to them. Many dogs are naturally subservient and in a dog pack, would be happy to follow someone else. Some dogs are naturally more dominant and need to see that their human is the leader. However, truly dominant dogs are rare. Domestic dogs have been bred to be our companions and often what people mistake as dominance is just a lack of training. Most dogs are happy to be led by their human once given some motivation to do so. In a dog's mind, there needs to be a pack leader and if no one else is going to do it, then he needs to fill the role.
Just like with wolves, the leader who earns respect and rules fairly and clearly (in a way the dog understands) is the leader who continues to be the "Alpha". A dog that has been forced into being subservient doesn't respect his leader, he fears him and a fearful dog is a dangerous, unpredictable dog.
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Post by dookdook on Feb 10, 2011 19:52:50 GMT -5
I have a horse and she and her herd have a hierarchy. I also have to inforce that I am in charge when I work with her or she will try to take control of various situations. I am not sure how it works with ferrets since they are not herd or pack animals.. They are solitary in the wild versus a dog or a horse that would be with a pack/herd/group. I guess just try different things and see what works for you.. I mean, if he is just hissing and isn't hurting you how much harm can he inflict anyways?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2011 20:07:31 GMT -5
I understand, and your very lucky to have a happy and well adjusted ferret. Some of us have taken in some very traumatized ferrets, some with more experience than others, some who have rescues that they work with or run and other's like me who just took them in knowing that there was going to be a challenge just because they needed me, a good home, good food, exercise and entertainment. You can read through my posts about Sophie Ann here holisticferret60.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talk&action=display&thread=181she nor her cagemate Velma will ever respond positively or submit to scruffing, dragging, hissing or things of that sort because they were neglected and are suspected to have been abused (I have no concrete proof but they are severly handshy, will lunge at anyone near the cage even if it's to feed them, if scruffed will gator/deathroll and sink their teeth into any bit of flesh that they can. They shake violently when picked up and with-in a split second will draw blood. They also both have broken teeth and were handed to me in a 10 inch by 10 inch cardboard box that was sealed shut with duct tape, nor air hole or anything.) They were dirty, extremely thin, and had talons for nails. Now Velma has come a long way and has gained over a pound and will tolerate being held for short periods of time, no longer thana min or two. Sophie Ann continues to be a challenge...and I know that if I didn't take her in she would of either ended up being put down humanely or killed violently as a knee jerk reaction to her biting someone. Now I've read that most Jills will stop scruffing the kits anywhere between the age of 12 to 16 weeks sometimes as early as 10 weeks. After that poor behavior is ignored. All we know about Snitch, the op's ferret in question, is that he's a new addition. We don't know his age (is he a kit or a couple years old), background (is he fresh from the pet store, a rescue, or been re-homed. was he negelcted or abused), or breeding (Marshalls, PV, breederferret). Being that all of my guys are rescues with unknown pasts and some with obvious signs of abuse, neglect and trauma, I can't in good consious (can't spell sorry!) scruff them and further traumatize them or scare them enough to make them loose what little trust I have gained. Your London was three months old, or just about, so he most likely wasn't bounced around from home to home nor was he in a situation where he could be abused, neglected or traumatized, he was still a young kit around the age where the Jill would still be scruffing but starting to ignore poor behavior. What you did to help him see the light worked for you and him and I'm happy it did, because there are days where I just don't know if I will ever get through to Sophie Ann.... There is another thread that I started about 2 weeks ago, I had found on a farms website their reccomended punishment and was both shocked and horrified! Here's the link holisticferret60.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talk&action=display&thread=259&page=1I know that personally I have two fuzz that are quiet loud eaters and will grunt, hiss, and make squeeky type noises when they eat. Especially if I've given them whole baby bunnies or something really yummy that they really enjoy! It kinda sounds like they are breathing out and chewing at the same time add to that the moisture of the meat sometimes it almost sounds like a faint whistleing!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2011 20:08:59 GMT -5
oh and as for my sense of humor... I've always been a bit on the "off" side of things...but that's one of the things that makes me "special"! I tend to see humor in things that would make most people cringe..I know I'm a wacko!
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