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Post by katt on May 7, 2011 14:24:24 GMT -5
lol no problem! I'll give the beef organs, chicken breast, and pork a try today (I'm still feeding 3-4 meals a day because they are eating a lot) and if I have time to stop by the pet food store (one of my poor hedgehogs is sick and needs to go to the vet ) I will see if I can find the cornish game hens.Um... try the grocery store! I've seen whole quails before? would this be something to try too? And I'll just probably stock up on random organs and bone-in meats, whatever looks good, that way I can just try things as I go and don't have to keep making trips to the store (it sucks not having a vehicle, sadly I can't afford insurance or the ridiculous gas prices because all my money goes to the pets :pets....expensive...? Nah! Yes whole quail is great! I will make a big list for you so next time you go out you have a lot of ideas to look for.
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Post by katt on May 7, 2011 14:33:20 GMT -5
Ok foods to look for: Quail pheasant lamb goat rabbit chicken/turkey/duck feet mouse rat beef game hen chicken whole, parts, etc turkey (any whole, parts...) pork pork bits (heart, organs, lung, brain, skin...) pork side/uncured bacon (same thing - it's basically a bacon cut but it uncured so there is no salt or anything - great source of fat!) duck and of course any animal above for: heart, liver, spleen, kidney, lung, brain....
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2011 19:09:59 GMT -5
Thanks for the shopping list! I will have to do some shopping tomorrow and stock up my freezer They took fairly well to the chicken breast. I ended up having to dice it into chunks about the size of shreddies (the cereal, haha, only thing I could think of that size) and they were able to chew that, but not any bigger. I guess their little jaws still have some strength building to do! They are munching down on some chicken necks as I type this. I've been giving them brown paper bags to eat it in and they seem to quite like it! I might have to stick some cardboard boxes in there as feeding dens too. I tried using the rubbermaid hideouts I had but they didn't want to eat in there... and I discovered they had been using one of them as a secret litter box, ugh!!! I will be trying the beef organs out in an hour or so, once they are done with their chicken necks / diced chicken breast, and I'll leave those in there until bed time and see how much they eat, and then I'll try them with the pork tenderloin overnight. So far, haven't had to scruff and stuff, they are fairly willing to try the new foods I'll let you know how the organs and pork goes and what I manage to stock up on tomorrow!
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Post by katt on May 7, 2011 22:14:48 GMT -5
Yay good girls! I'll wait for an update tomorrow.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2011 1:46:32 GMT -5
So organs were NOT a hit at all I have them in the cage still right now so we'll see if they touch them overnight but I doubt it. I scruffed and stuff and oh man, the faces they made were so funny ;D I swear I thought Sophie was going to puke, that was the face she made. So I tried a few times but then it just felt like torture so I stopped Maybe tomorrow I'll give it another go, or mix them up in something tasty to entice them to eat it. Olivia ate a whole chicken neck again, even more of the bone this time, but Sophie is still not that into them. I need to try find something with smaller bones that I can smash better for her.. any suggestions? They also have the pork in their cage right now (diced pork tenderloin) and they've both tried it and quite like it so I'm sure they'll eat more overnight
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2011 14:55:05 GMT -5
Ate all of their diced pork (I'll have to leave them more food overnight so that there's some leftover), did not touch the beef organs and ate diced chicken this morning.
I might give the organs another go in an hour or so, and hopefully will do a shopping trip today and get some more bone-in meats. Their poops are looking kind of icky again now that I'm adding the new kinds of protein, but I'm guessing this is normal as they get use to each new protein.
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Post by katt on May 8, 2011 19:11:24 GMT -5
Oh boy ;D You might have to make organ soup. It happens - some ferrets just aren't too cray about organs at first. Mix it up with something they really like, like chicken breast, and some pumpkin and oil and water. Make it kind of thick at first, and if they don't take it blend in more water until it is a consistency that they will eat. Then we can work on thickening it up and removing the other ingredients gradually. As for the bones, try chicken wing tips. The bones are small and soft. Cut the meat up so it's hanging off of the bone, then smash it well with a hammer. You are in Canada? PM me your mailing address, and first and last name, and I will send you something that will help a LOT with the bones. Also yes, new meats, more change. All can add up to yucky poops. So don't worry too much, they will be hit and miss for a while as we go through new foods and they get used to a constant variety.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2011 20:11:11 GMT -5
Thanks, I PM'd you I will give the organ soup a try with the beef organs and let you know how that goes. Or do you think they would maybe eat chicken organs since they seem to like chicken? I still can't find plain chicken hearts, but I'm giving another store a try tomorrow. And then off to the grocery store during the week to get some different proteins. I did pick up some whole quail today though...Do I cut them up? Or maybe into chunks? Or should I offer the quail whole? Not sure if they are quite there yet. Right now they are eating 3-4 meals a day and are eating diced chicken, diced pork and chicken necks, so at least we seem to be on the right track Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2011 20:30:44 GMT -5
Also forgot to ask.. If I put the freeze-dried raw I have leftover in the deep freeze downstairs, will it last longer? I have the two pretty full bags and they are taking up room in my fridge.
Also how long does raw meat last in the fridge after it's been defrosted? I have some chicken breasts and pork tenderloin that have been in the fridge for a couple days now, but the girls aren't eating enough to use them up all at once. I don't want to give them bad meat either though!
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2011 16:22:06 GMT -5
So I've basically answered all of my own questions by doing some searching in the forum ;D maybe I should stop being so lazy and actually look for some answers before asking you everything The girls poops are pretty disgusting again, they aren't even formed, more like piles of mush. I've been checking their bums frequently because you said too much diarrhea could cause prolapses, but so far so good on that. I think they are just getting too much muscle meat and need some good bone to firm things up. So I just finished cutting up a whole quail into smaller pieces. Their little jaws aren't quite strong enough to tackle it whole, so I cut the legs, wings, and neck off with scissors and then cut the body into smaller pieces, cut the rib cage into a few pieces too. Some of the bones seem a little sharp, but after doing some reading into bone I've re-assured myself that they can in fact eat bone without issues ;D It does take a little while to wrap your mind around because they do seem so sharp and hard. I also smashed the wing and leg tips with a hammer to expose the marrow so hopefully Sophie will take to it. Olivia a little monster and loves her chicken necks so I'm not too worried about her taking to it. I'm just about to offer it to them and will let you know how it goes! I also answered my own question about the fridge from someone else's post... basically "use it until it smells off" ;D I am going to take the chicken and pork that I have left and make one batch of chicken organ soup and one batch of pork organ soup with that nasty organ meat they dispise so much. Their poops are probably going to be awful for the next few days. They are currently a little green too so I'm thinking a fecal test may not be a bad idea if they don't stabilize within the next few weeks, But as long as you're not too concerned, then I'm trying not to be too concerned It is pretty funny to see me dissecting their poops every day and wondering if it looks normal or not ;D
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Post by katt on May 9, 2011 22:38:50 GMT -5
So I've basically answered all of my own questions by doing some searching in the forum ;D maybe I should stop being so lazy and actually look for some answers before asking you everything Hey, that's what I'm here for! The girls poops are pretty disgusting again, they aren't even formed, more like piles of mush. I've been checking their bums frequently because you said too much diarrhea could cause prolapses, but so far so good on that. I think they are just getting too much muscle meat and need some good bone to firm things up.They should balance out after a while. Green poops can be a sign of stress. A fecal never hurts though, especially if they don't settle down after several weeks. It took about 2 months or so for Kenai to start calming down. He seems to be a little neurotic though. lmao So I just finished cutting up a whole quail into smaller pieces. Their little jaws aren't quite strong enough to tackle it whole, so I cut the legs, wings, and neck off with scissors and then cut the body into smaller pieces, cut the rib cage into a few pieces too.Perfect! Let me know how they like it! You are doing a great job. Some of the bones seem a little sharp, but after doing some reading into bone I've re-assured myself that they can in fact eat bone without issues ;D It does take a little while to wrap your mind around because they do seem so sharp and hard. You get used to it. haha As long as they are not cooked. Never NEVER EVER feed cooked bone. Raw bone breaks, but cooked bone splinters and is very dangerous. Raw bone though is totally safe. The only thing to watch for is ti be sure to take out any leftover bone after a day or two because it will start to dry out too much, and watch their teeth on bigger bones as they can crack their teeth on say beef bones. Most medium bones are okay though (turkey bones, pork ribs, etc) as long as the leftover pieces are removed after 1-2 days. I also smashed the wing and leg tips with a hammer to expose the marrow so hopefully Sophie will take to it. Olivia a little monster and loves her chicken necks so I'm not too worried about her taking to it.How did Sophie take to it? You might have to resort to scruff and stuff. Try Scruff and stuff with a little piece of marrow and see how she likes it. Also, try coating the mangled bone-meat mess with a little oil or something else they find super tasty. Bribe her in. I also answered my own question about the fridge from someone else's post... basically "use it until it smells off" ;D haha Yup! You learn the "bad" smell pretty quickly! ;D Also, portion the meat into smaller freezer bags and freeze them. Then you can take out only 1-2 day's worth at a time to keep it fresh longer. I am going to take the chicken and pork that I have left and make one batch of chicken organ soup and one batch of pork organ soup with that nasty organ meat they dispise so much. You can freeze this in ice cube trays to make it last longer. Also (once they learn to like it) a great treat on hot days! Their poops are probably going to be awful for the next few days. They are currently a little green too so I'm thinking a fecal test may not be a bad idea if they don't stabilize within the next few weeks, But as long as you're not too concerned, then I'm trying not to be too concerned It is pretty funny to see me dissecting their poops every day and wondering if it looks normal or not ;DHahaha You should have seen my after we figured out Koda has IBD! ;D ;D ;D ;D I was dissecting poops for months, taking pictures, cataloging... Try this - start a log. A small notebook, Excel, something along those lines. Take notes of what you feed, how much, and what their poops look like. As well as if anything "stressful" happened that day (they got a new hammock, or went outside for the first time, or didn't get out of their cage all day...etc). Also get a small kitchen scale and weigh them every few weeks and record that. This will help you a LOT. This way you can track what is going on at all times and you will have a better indication of when things go wrong. Like you might start to notice that after eating chicken, their poops are always mucousy for several days, or that lately Sophie has been loosing/gaining weight. These notes can be really good in many many ways. Keeps you up to date on their health, allows you to start seeing trends, and if something happens you can look back and see what might have led up to it, or have a pre-warning if something is happening.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2011 0:02:10 GMT -5
Hey, that's what I'm here for! Oh don't worry, I plan to take full advantage of asking you every silly little question I can think of ;D They should balance out after a while. Green poops can be a sign of stress. A fecal never hurts though, especially if they don't settle down after several weeks. It took about 2 months or so for Kenai to start calming down. He seems to be a little neurotic though. That makes me feel better to hear that Kenai took so long. I'm just such a worry wart, I'm the same way about all of my animals poops ;D I looked at some pictures of what kibble poop looks like compared to raw poop in one of the stickies in the nutrition section so I'm started to think that minus the green and mucous and complete mush piles, that the other poops are actually fairly normal looking raw poops. I am totally open to see pictures of what healthy raw poops look like so if you've got any... ;D wow that seems like a really weird thing to ask for! Perfect! Let me know how they like it! You are doing a great job.The Quail was a hit! I left it in the cage basically all day because they would stash some, eat some, take a break, eat some more, etc. In total, I think they maybe ate a quarter of the whole quail together? I'm assuming this means I should offer them less next time so as not to waste so much. But I'm super proud of what they did eat! There were even a couple feathers left on it! You get used to it. haha As long as they are not cooked. Never NEVER EVER feed cooked bone. Raw bone breaks, but cooked bone splinters and is very dangerous. Raw bone though is totally safe. The only thing to watch for is ti be sure to take out any leftover bone after a day or two because it will start to dry out too much, and watch their teeth on bigger bones as they can crack their teeth on say beef bones. Most medium bones are okay though (turkey bones, pork ribs, etc) as long as the leftover pieces are removed after 1-2 days.Don't worry I definitely won't be offering cooked bones! I'm super careful about keeping the garbage locked up whenever there's cooked chicken bones because those can destroy a dog's intestinal tract, I can only imagine the horrors they could do to a ferret! I remove all leftover bones / meat, etc. at the next meal time (I do a thorough search for stashes too) so theres' no risk of it drying out... Should I be leaving the food in longer? Do some of them like to let it "season" for a while in a hiding place before they eat it? How did Sophie take to it? You might have to resort to scruff and stuff. Try Scruff and stuff with a little piece of marrow and see how she likes it. Also, try coating the mangled bone-meat mess with a little oil or something else they find super tasty. Bribe her in. She ate bone!!! Hurray!!! She ate the smashed leg tip at first, and then some tip of a wing and then I found her munching on a leg/wing (not sure which) all by herself and she was chewing on just bone and swallowing it!! haha Yup! You learn the "bad" smell pretty quickly! Also, portion the meat into smaller freezer bags and freeze them. Then you can take out only 1-2 day's worth at a time to keep it fresh longer.I was definitely taking out too much meat before so I am doing smaller portions now. I actually used up all the chicken and pork I had left over (still smelled good) to make organ soup and am freezing it in small amount in zip lock bags. You can freeze this in ice cube trays to make it last longer. Also (once they learn to like it) a great treat on hot days!Darn, wish I would have thought of the ice cube trays (or read this) before I froze it, now I know for next time! Hahaha You should have seen my after we figured out Koda has IBD! I was dissecting poops for months, taking pictures, cataloging...
Try this - start a log. A small notebook, Excel, something along those lines. Take notes of what you feed, how much, and what their poops look like. As well as if anything "stressful" happened that day (they got a new hammock, or went outside for the first time, or didn't get out of their cage all day...etc). Also get a small kitchen scale and weigh them every few weeks and record that. This will help you a LOT. This way you can track what is going on at all times and you will have a better indication of when things go wrong. Like you might start to notice that after eating chicken, their poops are always mucousy for several days, or that lately Sophie has been loosing/gaining weight. These notes can be really good in many many ways. Keeps you up to date on their health, allows you to start seeing trends, and if something happens you can look back and see what might have led up to it, or have a pre-warning if something is happening. Such a good idea! I am going to start one tomorrow! Thank you! So today they ate small meals of Quail all day, and tonight they are eating diced pork again (they've really taken to the pork). I also took some organ soup (pork, organ, water, pumpkin, a bit of olive oil, and some bone meal) and forced it into their mouths. Sophie only gagged once but wasn't really interested unless I put it right on her mouth. Olivia didn't mind it and actually ate a piece of pork soaked in the organ soup so that's a step in the right direction, I'd say! I'm going to give them smaller pieces of the quail tomorrow again, some chicken necks and some raw lamb and see how that goes. No luck on finding other organs or hearts nearby. Did you say that you could sometimes find hearts or organs for sale at human grocery stores? Or oriental grocery stores?
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2011 16:18:35 GMT -5
I found chicken hearts, chicken liver, chicken giblets, and chicken necks and backs at my local grocery store today! Super cheap too They are mostly getting chicken and pork and quail right now, but I was wondering is it better for them to get a mix of white meats and red meats? Should I be adding some more beef / lamb, etc. in there. I just find with the red meats, the in-bone meats have such large bones. Any suggestions? I was also thinking (I'm still a little unsure if I am up to it ;D) of getting some frozen mice? Any suggestions there on where the best place to get them from is, what the best kind to start is? We have a really good reptile store in town that sells them so I was thinking theirs should be of fairly high quality... I just really don't want to have to chop up mice. So maybe I should wait until they're eating more whole prey? ;D
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Post by katt on May 10, 2011 17:11:12 GMT -5
I found chicken hearts, chicken liver, chicken giblets, and chicken necks and backs at my local grocery store today! Super cheap too Yaay! They are mostly getting chicken and pork and quail right now, but I was wondering is it better for them to get a mix of white meats and red meats? Should I be adding some more beef / lamb, etc. in there. I just find with the red meats, the in-bone meats have such large bones. Any suggestions?Alternate the darker meats in on on-bone-in meals. You can mix meats too. So for example a good meal would be turkey necks and beef chunks. I was also thinking (I'm still a little unsure if I am up to it ;D) of getting some frozen mice? Any suggestions there on where the best place to get them from is, what the best kind to start is? We have a really good reptile store in town that sells them so I was thinking theirs should be of fairly high quality... I just really don't want to have to chop up mice. So maybe I should wait until they're eating more whole prey? ;D[/b
Whole prey is really the way to go. Frozen mice you can get anywhere really. Look around for a local reptile-feeder store/rodent supplier, CL is a good reseoruce. Also, any pet store that sells snakes should sell frozen rodents. I know PetCo has them. Starting them out get some pinkies, hoppers, and small adults. The hardest part about getting them to eat whole prey is getting them past the fur. lol
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2011 0:21:53 GMT -5
Thanks!!
Today the girls ate: -Pork chunks (late last night and early this morning) -Quail wings, legs, neck and chopped up meat (lunch) -Lamb chunks and chicken necks (dinner) -Rest of the quail (they are working on this currently).
I am going to give the organs a try tomorrow and I'm also defrosting a whole cornish hen currently. But I was just wondering for the organs... how many organs should they be eating?
Chicken hearts are fairly small so to meat their weekly need of hearts (taurine), how many hearts should they be eating during a meal? I want to know this more for how many of the hearts should I freeze together in one bag purposes ;D
Or could I put the hearts in an ice cube tray with a couple heart per little ice cube holder? Would they stay fresh enough this way since the ice cube tray isn't sealed. I've got like maybe 50 chicken hearts and about the same amount of gizzards so I'm kind of unsure what to do with them all ;D
I'll see if I can get some pinkie mice... eventually ;D but as far as "whole prey" go, does this just include anything that has all it's part in tact and has skin and fur/feathers on it still? I'm not going to ever feed live, but frozen-defrosted I may be willing to feed. Other than mice, what kind of things can you get? Do you just feed a whole prey diet or can you feed a mix of raw and whole prey?
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